Do you want to learn how to market your health coaching business? In this episode I will provide you with the top 3 ways on how to make money as a health coach. If you want to make money as a health coach..like we are talking six figure health coaching here, then you’ve come to the right place. These health coaching career tips will teach you how to grow your health business and help your health coaching online business. I love watching health coach videos, I love making them and nowI want to help you answer the question “how do I grow my health coaching business?”
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You have your health coaching certificate, and you're pretty excited, but now that you have it, you're kind of wondering, "Well, how do I actually make money as a health coach?" For functional health training and online business strategies for health coaches, make sure to subscribe to my channel, and hit the bell to get notified every time I post a video on Thursdays.
There are a lot of good health coaching schools out there. There's ITN, FDN, IIN. There's lots of good ones, and I think a lot of them do a really good job at teaching you about health and nutrition, but a lot of them are actually lacking in the business department. The ones that actually do teach business like the one that I went to are actually teaching a very outdated business model that leads to basically you going broke and burning out.
By the end of this video, you will know the top three things that you need to focus on as a health coach to make money in your business. Just so you know, guys, this is totally possible. I hit six figures in my business in less than three years, and I didn't get any business training in my health coaching school. I'm totally self-taught. I did this all on my own. Honestly, if I can do it so can you.
Before you go out and do anything for your business, the first thing you need to do is you need to sit down with a piece of paper or some sort of text app and you need to really think about who you want to help. You need to niche down as much as possible. As much as you got into this because you want to help as many people as possible, it's actually not possible to help everyone.
If you try to help everyone, you will help no one. It's really important to get incredibly clear on who you actually help. Who is that person? What gender are they? What age range are they in, how much money do they make? What keeps them up at night? What is the problem that you actually solve for them? Maybe, you help women who are struggling with fatigue, get more energy so they can create better lives for themselves and have more energy to play with their kids.
When you think of it this way, you probably have a woman, maybe she's in her 30s to 40s. She has one kid, maybe two kids, maybe three, and she really wants to be a good mother but she's not feeling like she's hitting that mark because she just doesn't have the energy. She goes to bed tired. She wakes up tired. Then, she just doesn't have enough energy to actually give her kids the attention that she wants.
See how specific that is. That will make your marketing more easy. When you post content on social media, you'll know exactly who you're talking to. If I am a mother with fatigue and kids who I don't feel like I'm giving enough attention to because I'm so tired, if I stumble on your social media panel or social media channel or your website, that is going to speak to me. That is going to be something that I need and I'm going to be pretty up for following you and listening to pretty much everything you have to say.
The next thing you want to focus on is to get out on social media and give value and share a little bit of your personality. But the biggest mistake that I see new health coaches make is they try to be everywhere at once. Because of that, they get very overwhelmed or they just do kind of a crappy quality job on each individual platform.
My advice is to try not to be everywhere at once. You can't be everywhere at once, but to choose one social media platform, one that resonates with you, one that maybe you actually like to be on or one where maybe your ideal client might be hanging out. Then, focus all your attention, all your resources and provide specific high-value content specifically for that platform.
Maybe, you love being on Instagram. Maybe, Instagram is your thing. That's where you spend most of your time, and you think maybe your ideal client, your mom with fatigue and a family, maybe she's going to be out there hanging out on Instagram. Focus on Instagram and learn about Instagram. Figure out what types of content does best on Instagram or maybe you like being on Facebook. Maybe, that's your place and you feel like your ideal client is hanging out on Facebook.
Educate yourself on Facebook, and figure out what types of content does Facebook actually like and what types of content should you be creating for that specific platform. Don't be overwhelmed by other health coaches out there who are on multiple social platforms that 100% is not how they started, and there's a good chance that they have a team of people behind them that are making this content for them.
It's not actually possible to do all of this yourself. In the beginning, it's better to focus on quality over quantity. Choose one social media platform and figure out how to optimize it. Guys, and I would love to know how do you feel about social media. Does it make you feel overwhelmed? Let me know in the comments below if it makes you feel kind of overwhelmed.
The third thing to know as a new health coach is do not try to sell one-off sessions. This is kind of the business model that you were taught in a lot of the nutrition training that you did. Let me tell you, it's incredibly outdated. You will never succeed doing this model. You will probably go broke. You won't make enough money and you are sure to burn yourself out because if you think about it, if you're selling like a session for $100 and you're just doing these one-off sessions and maybe you're following up every couple months, you're literally going to have to sell like 80 to 100 of these sessions a month, which means you need to find 80 to 100 clients each month which is frigging impossible. It doesn't work.
As a health coach, you are not working like a doctor or a naturopathic doctor. You are a health coach. You are selling transformation. This means that it's very important to sell packages. You want people that are actually ready to commit and are ready to not only invest financially but invest their time in getting to a solution.
If you just sell one-off sessions, there's a good chance that those people are not going to get results, that they're not committed and you may never see them again. But if you can sell a package and get people to pay for some type of program upfront, they are not only going to be invested, but they are going to be committed, and you're going to be working with them over maybe two, three months, maybe six months, maybe even a year. Those people are way more likely to get results because they are committing to that bigger package and because you're guaranteed to get that time with them.
Do not try to sell one-off sessions. Do not do it. Don't do it. I'll say that again. Don't do it. Sell packages. You want to sit down and come up with your package for your ideal client. If it's your mom who's dealing with fatigue, you're going to come up with maybe three-month get more energy type of package. It's going to include this amount of sessions maybe some resources, some level of support.
Maybe, you offer Voxer support. Maybe, you offer email support or Facebook messenger support, whatever it is. It's going to be this all-inclusive package that people are going to pay you up front for. Let me tell you, guys, that financial investment in a person's health is very much a part of that transformation.
What you're going to notice is the people that you give something to for very cheaper, even free, they're probably not going to take advantage of that free thing, and they're probably not going to stick with it. In the beginning, I offered a bunch of free packages to people because I wanted to get experience, but none of those people actually stuck with it because they weren't actually invested because they didn't have to give something away of value to get that thing that they actually wanted.
That financial commitment to paying for that package upfront, very, very important, and it is going to contribute to the results in the transformation that they get in the end of your program. Now that you know where to start as a new health coach and where to focus your time, make sure to grab my free insider's secret guide, the 10 things I wish I knew as a new health coach. You can get that by clicking the link below.
Guys, and if you like this video, please let me know by liking it below. Make sure to share it with your fellow health nerds and definitely leave me a comment and let me know what your biggest takeaway was and how this video helped you.
Podcasts are our go to learning tools for business & marketing. While Kendra listens to true crime podcasts before she goes to sleep at night, Christine finds community in listening to podcasts (thankfully not within the true crime podcasts). You can listen to ANY podcasts ANY WHERE at ANY TIME. In this episode, we delve into our top 10 favorite podcasts about business and health. The commonality of them all – real hosts with great tips and fun energy. Tune in to this episode to find out what great podcasts we listen to!
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Christine Hanse: Hello, wonderful people out there. Welcome to a new episode of The 360 Health Biz Podcast today with the hostess of the mostest times two, we have the wonderful Kendra Perry coming in live from Nelson, Canada. Lovely, and very refreshed from a little spa time out, which we can never have enough of when we do heavy lifting, lots of hustling, we do our time out; and myself, Christine Hansen. We're super excited to talk to you today. This episode is going to be a little bit meta because we're going to look at other podcasts that we actually like and that we love listening to. Just giving you guys some ideas on what else you can put into your subscribe list. Obviously, you will have us on there already.
Kendra Perry: I think so.
Christine Hanse: Obviously, you adore us and you've left us a review on iTunes. We actually want to thank one of you who's done that. Kendra, I'm going ahead and give this over to you and just have a quick thank you session here. Then we're going to get straight into our material of this week.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. Thanks, Christine, for the wonderful intro as always. Yeah, I'm pretty excited about this review because I know they don't make it the easiest for you to review podcasts. It's too bad. You can't just do it in the app. You actually have to go to the website. We are very grateful from Shelby, too from Canada, a fellow Canadian. She says, "OMG, Kendra and Christine are hilarious. I love how fun they are, and I often find myself laughing out loud. They provide a ton of valuable education on so many important topics. They make marketing fun. I love you, ladies, so much and I anxiously await for Wednesdays so I can get the latest episode. Thank you so much for helping me grow my business." Oh my gosh.
Christine Hanse: Oh, if it's just to see both of our faces go like huge smiley face from space, this is worth it on its own to write a review, literally. We're purring away here.
Kendra Perry: We are. You just boosted our egos so much. That's great that you're laughing because that's what we want. [crosstalk 00:02:07]
Christine Hanse: We need some boosting, Kendra, for real.
Kendra Perry: We need some ego-boosting always.
Christine Hanse: That's great.
Kendra Perry: That's exactly what we want. We want you to laugh, we want you to learn because marketing and functional health aren't always the most sexy topics. We try to make it sexy over here, right?
Christine Hanse: Absolutely. That's why I'm wearing the makeup today and no pants, so there you go. [crosstalk 00:02:31]
Kendra Perry: Because we're in such different time zones, Christine's in Europe. I'm in Canada. I'm just waking up so I'm always like, "Err, it's the morning. I need my coffee." You're always so glammed up. You got your nice earrings, and your hair is beautiful. It's just a top polarizing.
Christine Hanse: Yeah, energy was dropped. By the time I put my top, I was like, "Yeah." That's it.
Kendra Perry: It always counts anyways over [crosstalk 00:02:56].
Christine Hanse: Anyways, it's going to be a great episode, as always. You can always head over to our website where you can also read the transcript to have a video with our beautiful faces. Come and visit us over on Instagram. Kendra is walking the chisels out of Instagram stories. It's hilarious. We both discovered that we have way too much time on our hands to play around with it. You laugh. It's fun. It's super fun. Anyway though, both of us got into this. I have my podcast. Actually, it was pretty soon when I started my second business, Sleep Like A Boss. I launched a podcast really, really quickly. It actually became pretty big out. I don't know why really. There are so many things in my business. I didn't know why. Podcast and for me and for Kendra, it's just something that we love listening to. I listened to lots of them, but I have to say it was essential when I started my business.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I'm a podcast fan. I'm always listening to podcasts. Anytime, I'm walking or moving and before bed at night, I actually listened to true crime podcasts and legal podcasts. That's what leads me to sleep at night, murder and legal proceedings. It's funny little piece of information about me. I'm super twisted in the brain, but we're not talking about true crime podcast. We're gonna talk about some of our favorite business and marketing podcast, plus a few of the functional health podcasts that both of us listen to. I mean, I love podcasts because there's so much easier to consume than video, right? I don't have time to watch video. I almost never watch it. If I'm not working on my computer, I'm up and I'm moving around. I'm doing shit, right? That's why I love podcast. You can learn so much. So much of my knowledge in business and marketing is actually from a lot of the podcasts I listened to.
Christine Hanse: I found it was a sense of community for some reason. When I started out, I didn't know who to talk to yet. At that time, that's actually my first suggestion. It's the format has changed quite a bit. At the time, when I started out, it was really coincidence. I don't remember how I got to them, but it's the Being Boss podcast.
Kendra Perry: Who does that one?
Christine Hanse: Two ladies, it's fantastic. It's very much aimed at creatives. Then, at the time, they had a Facebook group too, The Being Boss Facebook group. I think it's through the Facebook group that I found the podcast. It grew so big. Actually, they closed it down at some point because it was just too big. That was not where they wanted to have their energy. The format has changed a little bit, but I really loved it because you had sound business advice, but in such a fun way. I laughed out loud so many times. Actually, Emily and Kathleen, the two gals who are on the podcast really remind me a little bit of us in terms of just laughing and being very honest natured.
Christine Hanse: I really admired them because they took their very real as to the struggles as well. That moment when sometimes you have to stare into the abyss. It's just the entrepreneurial journey. It's a very, very, real, lot of tips, fun. They also have super interesting guests on their podcast. It was actually a sleep expert at some point. What was her name. Oh, right. It's me. I was on that too.
Kendra Perry: Famous plug.
Christine Hanse: I know totally. It was quite a big deal. I just got into it because a friend of ours that are meant just introduced us. At the time I was talking about baby sleep too, and Kathleen wasn't sleeping because her kid is as old as mine. Se she still had sleep issues. It's still a really great podcast. That's the first one I listened to. It makes me feel less alone in this world in kind of, "Oh, this is what an entrepreneur actually does." I really loved it. That's my first suggestion.
Kendra Perry: That's awesome. Yeah, it's so true because when you're working from home, when you're working alone, especially if you're new to being an entrepreneur, you don't realize that there is a community of people out there in the world. Maybe not in your town or in your city, but there's a lot of us out there just like you. That community is super important because it's very isolating sometimes doing what we do.
Christine Hanse: All right. Kendra, all yours.
Kendra Perry: I'm gonna actually start with talking about The Goal Digger Podcast, not the gold digger podcast, but that might be interesting too. Well, this is the Goal Digger Podcast. You guys might be familiar with Jenna Kutcher. She's a wedding photographer turned online marketing expert. I really love her podcast. I mean, she makes me laugh because she's super American, very, very American in the nicest way. She's just super positive, super happy, optimistic. She loves to go to church, and she loves all those American. [crosstalk 00:08:00] I love American. I think they're fantastic, but she's just ... I listened because sometimes it's just she's so optimistic and almost so cheesy. That being said, her podcast episodes are super actionable, right?
Kendra Perry: I often listen to her episodes, even when they don't have a lot to do with me, even when she's talking about a topic that maybe doesn't really make sense for me and my business, but just the information in it is so good. It's so actionable. All her episodes, I think she just crushes that. If you wanna learn about Instagram, or email marketing, or being vulnerable, she covers all those topics. She's also a really good one to follow on Instagram because she's done a really good job with building her Instagram following. She has a massive following, but she has very different topics that she talks about.
Kendra Perry: She has the online business, but she also shares a lot about positive body image, right? She posts a lot of photos of her in her underwear and her bikini. She's a very beautiful curvy woman, and I love that. She's probably multiple different audiences, but she's very good at being vulnerable in sharing herself, which is very important in today's marketing world. She's definitely an inspiration.
Christine Hanse: That's great. I absolutely love it. Perfect. You have to know that I told Kendra that I thought she was very good at piano when we met. She was so flattered. [crosstalk 00:09:21].
Kendra Perry: I was super flattered. I was like, "You can have your feed. Oh, my God. I'm just a small-town Canada girl. This is so great." She talks like that. Maybe she's so American. I was like, "You're such a darling."
Christine Hanse: All right. My second one, I really have to say I don't listen to podcast that regularly. Those are literally the ones that I have on my subscription library here, but I did listen to all of them. It's actually a podcast that belongs to an app. The app is called You Need A Budget or YNAB, Y-N-A-B, You Need A Budget. It's a budgeting app. It's changed my life. I'm ignoring it at the moment. Come on. I always love to fill it up when money comes in.
Kendra Perry: The app is called You Need A Budget.
Christine Hanse: Yes, the app is called You Need A Budget. You can use it on your computer and on your phone. It's really helping you to budget and to get a grip on your finances.
Kendra Perry: Oh, yeah. That's awesome.
Christine Hanse: Really good. It's really, really, really good. They have a matching podcast that obviously talks about the content of the app. It also really talks about what can you do in order to prepare for tax returns. He talks about ... He is basically the CEO from YNAB. He also talks about the company and the challenges they go through, which I think is interesting for any startup or any company whatsoever. They also talk about stories. They have people who were in massive debt and how they use YNAB, obviously, to get out of it. Even if it's success stories, you always learn a lot about it. I just think it's so important that we tackle our finances and not ignore them. I do right now. I really have to face the music.
Christine Hanse: It's a good thing. Also, goals, got money goals, anything that has to do with basically finances. It's just really down to earth. It's super short. Each episode is really short. I just like it because we need to, yeah, we need to, I don't know, take control of our finances. Not be scared of all of these topics. Whether use that or another budgeting app, it doesn't matter. I just think that advice is really good. It's very, very down to earth. You don't run a business if you don't make money in the end.
Kendra Perry: It's the less sexy part of being an entrepreneur, but we do need to be very involved in our finances. I feel sometimes health professionals, health coaches, are the worst offenders for feeling icky and weird about money and ignoring it. Just feeling overwhelmed by it, not wanting to deal with it, maybe pushing it aside, or just feeling like it's gross. If you wanna be successful and not go into debt, you need to be very involved in your finances.
Christine Hanse: I'm super, super proud that I'm not in debt. I don't wanna be ... Sometimes just a little bit overdraft, but I don't have any credit or anything. [crosstalk 00:12:08]
Kendra Perry: Yeah, totally. I actually did my own bookkeeping up until two months ago. For almost five years in business, I did all my own books. Eventually, it just got to the point where it's like, "I can't do this anymore. This is ridiculous. Why am I doing this?" I got a fantastic bookkeeper, but I was always very involved. I knew exactly where my money was going, where my expenses, how much I was making. I was very much involved in that process. I think that helped.
Christine Hanse: I really wasn't didn't have, really didn't have.
Kendra Perry: That's not for everyone. I'm pretty good with numbers. I don't love them, but I very much I'm a bit controlling with my money. It was really important for me to do it myself. Now, when my bookkeeper hands over my monthly report, I know exactly what I'm looking at. I know, I can actually pick out if she's made mistakes or something was missed because I know exactly what I'm looking at.
Christine Hanse: Wow.
Kendra Perry: I think that was important for me. I mean, maybe not for everyone. For a lot of people, that might be the first thing they outsource, right? They might outsource their bookkeeping.
Christine Hanse: I think some of it is you have to do on your own, and it just takes discipline. It's just a habit like everything else. It just keeping track. I'm much more flowy, but that can get me into trouble. I actually have to force myself to be very disciplined with it, but it's fun in the end. The app is super easy to use too. Definitely something I would recommend.
Kendra Perry: The app is You Need A Budget, and the podcast is called when?
Christine Hanse: You Need A Budget too?
Kendra Perry: You Need a Budget too, okay, so both are the same. Okay, cool. Awesome. All right. The next one I wanted to bring up. This is another marketing one. It's called the Art Of Paid Traffic. The host is Rick Mulready. I really love this podcast because he does these quick tips. A lot of it is based around paid traffic, paid ads. He's definitely your Facebook ads experts. If you're running Facebook ads, definitely subscribe to his podcast. I don't listen to a lot of the longer episodes, although there's really great episodes. He does case studies. He'll do various case studies on people with different types of businesses and how they doubled their ROI with this much ad spend.
Kendra Perry: He'll go through all different people in different businesses, but he does these quick tip episodes once a week. They're really good for just staying up to date with what's going on in paid traffic, with what's going on in Facebook ads. Again, anytime Facebook brings in new metrics or they're switching things up on the ads platform, the ads dashboard, he'll inform you and tell you what's up.
Christine Hanse: That's golden. I logged into my Facebook dashboard, apps dashboard for the first time in probably eight months. It's like, "What?" I'm lost. I need to start from scratch. I'm like, "Oh god. I don't know."
Kendra Perry: They're constantly updating it. That's how I stay up to date, because I'm not gonna be the one to get on support with Facebook and talk to them and read the reports and tasks. He does that stuff. He keeps you informed about it. Actually, the other day, I learned that ... If you guys run Facebook ads, the relevant score is being taken away. The relevant score is the score that you get out of 10 that tells you how relevant your ad is. If you have a really low relevance score, it's not performing well. You should shut it off, versus having a ... The thing, the issue with that metric is it doesn't tell you why that's not working. You're like, "Okay, my relevant score is low, but is it the copy? Is that the image? Is it the landing page? Is it my targeting?" You have no idea.
Christine Hanse: It's like being dumped, but you don't know why.
Kendra Perry: You're like, "Was it me?" [crosstalk 00:15:41]
Christine Hanse: ... awesome sex too much for you?
Kendra Perry: Was I not good in bed or something? What's going on? You have no idea why. Obviously, I'm great in bed. That was never why he broke up with me. What they're doing is they're replacing the relevance score with five different metrics that's actually gonna determine why.
Christine Hanse: That's good.
Kendra Perry: Why your ads are not working? That's the stuff that I learned from that podcasts. It's the Art Of Paid Traffic. Yeah, it's a good one for those quick tips. It just helps you stay up to date with Facebook ads, but also what's going on with LinkedIn ads, or Pinterest ads. He covers it all. It is good because Facebook ads are expensive these days. You really have to know what you're doing, but whereas there's a lot of opportunity and other types of ads out there right now. You have different platforms. That is one of my favorites.
Christine Hanse: I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. All right. The next one that I haven't because I love public speaking, it's called The Speaker Lab Podcast with Grant Baldwin. It's basically everything that has to do with speaking. How can you get booked on different stages? How can you create an event around your speaking gigs? He has lots of different speakers come in, or people who, the event planners, what they are looking for, how you create the speech, how you handle those, all of that like stuff. Basically everything that has to do with speaking. My plan for this year is really to have more speaking in my business.
Christine Hanse: I'm doing that right now. I'm focusing on that even further. I have a German-speaking speaker agency, and I'm pitching some US ones as well soon. It's definitely part of my business model. I like listening to him. I find some people have a really nice pace as well. It's one of these podcasts that when I just need to drive and the not mellow, but just have company, I just listened to him. I like it a lot. That's a good one to listen to.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I love how much you're bringing public speaking into your business. I think it's really powerful. You're everywhere. You're famous. You're my famous friend who's been featured in all the big publications. You're on TV, no big deal, whatever. I think you're so cool.
Christine Hanse: Yeah, totally.
Kendra Perry: It's not a big deal.
Christine Hanse: It's my goal. I love doing it. I'm hustling a little bit more at the moment to get that off the ground, but he has really good tips there so cool. If you are into speaking, I definitely suggest that.
Kendra Perry: What was the name of it?
Christine Hanse: The Speaker Lab.
Kendra Perry: The Speaker Lab.
Christine Hanse: With Grant Baldwin.
Kendra Perry: Make sure I will kill. Make sure I'll get that in the show notes so that you guys can find these podcasts. The next one I want to talk about. This is one of my favorites because I just love the host so much. She's a fellow Canadian. Her name is Sunny Lenarduzzi. We actually saw her speak at Social Media Marketing. [crosstalk 00:18:43].
Christine Hanse: Kendra's eyes turned into the little heart emoji, the emoji with the heart eyes. That's Kendra when she talks about Sunny.
Kendra Perry: I know, I'm a fan girl. I'm one of Sunny's fan girls, for sure. At Social Media Marketing, I was like, "Oh my god, it's Sunny. Oh my god." I just think she's great. She lives in Vancouver. She's a fellow Canadian, but she also crushes it. She's definitely your go-to for YouTube. She's a YouTube expert. I've taken her YouTube For Bosses' course and it's fantastic. Really, really good. She makes amazing YouTube videos. Her podcast, The Sunny Show is actually great. She has that same style, nice flow. She's really relatable.
Kendra Perry: She's kinda nerdy. She laughs and keeps it light, but she gives away really valuable information about not only YouTube, but all kinds of different. She's really good for Instagram. She will talk about email marketing. She has all the topics. Then she has some pretty amazing guests on there as well. I really love that podcast. I've learned a lot from her. Obviously, just I'm her fan girl. It's embarrassing. It's embarrassing when you're just like, "Oh my God, you're so great."
Christine Hanse: That's really cute, very [crosstalk 00:19:58].
Kendra Perry: She has a great podcast. I always like to give a shout out to my fellow Canadian entrepreneurs.
Christine Hanse: Absolutely, you should. I have one more that I like. I don't listen to it religiously, but I do listen from time to time. It's called She's Got Moxie with Joy Chudacoff. I actually have an interesting story about that one, because for some reason, I have no idea why, I saw one of her posts in LinkedIn. It was just an image promoting an episode that she had with a woman called Laura McHolm from North Star Luxury moving. I just thought, "Oh, that's interesting for me," because being connected with the luxury industry is exactly my people. I clicked on it and listen to the episode. I really loved it. She was talking to this founder of North Star moving.
Christine Hanse: Actually, afterwards, I reached out to North Star moving because I was wondering if I could collaborate, and we did. Now, I am in their program as a part of if one of their clients wants to book a session with me. Through them, I've been published on Yahoo Finance, and in a really great real estate magazine. I probably work with them further in the future.
Kendra Perry: Awesome.
Christine Hanse: This is just a really random story how things can happen. Never be afraid to reach out. I find here's my PR genie going off, opportunity, opportunity. If you hear someone on a podcast and you can see that there's potential to collaborate or just if you like them, just write them an email and tell them. People love it. This is just one example. Now I have my foot in the door with a prime A celebrity rental company, moving company. Now I have my foot in the door there. It's just really fantastic. I like her podcast too. She's Got Moxie is really the great title because that's what it's about. It's about female entrepreneurs in different businesses, successful businesses sharing the journey and the tips and everything. It's just nice. It's very American too, in a way, but I like it. I really like it.
Kendra Perry: That's awesome. I think we definitely need to do an episode about working with brands and collaborations and reaching out. That's definitely something, a topic that I am very interested in these days. We did learn a little bit about it when we were at the conference together. That's definitely something we should put on our list for an episode in the future. Cool. All right. I have a couple that I wanted to talk about that are more related to health. The first one I wanted to mention is Chris Masterjohn's podcast, Mastering Nutrition. Chris Masterjohn has a PhD in nutrition.
Kendra Perry: He's super. He's smart as a whip. Super, super smart, super nerdy. His longer episodes are super intense. If you don't have a good background in nutrition, functional health, and you're just not so nerdy, love learning, you'll be like, "This is intense." He calls it I think Chris Masterjohn light episodes, which I like the light episodes. He'll spend about 10 minutes talking about a specific topic. If you wanna learn about nutrition, different vitamins, he has all these little light episodes on how to manage your zinc status, your vitamin A status, your vitamin B2 status, whatever, where he goes through. He talks about the best places to get the vitamin from. If you're gonna supplement, what are the best forums according to research. He's very research-minded.
Kendra Perry: He's someone who actually spends a lot of time reviewing and leafing through what the available research is on the topic he's discussing. Then he sums it up in a pretty nice way. It's a really good podcast, if you want to really up your game with nutrition, if you're doing a lot of work with your clients with nutrition and recommending nutritional supplements, that sort of thing, a really good resource. I really love that one. Then the other one I love is called The Energy Blueprint podcast. That's Ari Whitten. He's another super nerdy health researcher. He's one of the guys, again, who's boots on the ground deep into the research, reading it all. He does really good review sessions on his podcast, where he'll go through some topic.
Kendra Perry: For example, he did one. I think it was about a year ago, but it was a really good one about adrenal fatigue because everyone's talking about adrenal fatigue. He's like, "Look, if you go on PubMed, there's actually not a single study on adrenal fatigue." There's actually one. It basically says that adrenal fatigue doesn't exist. He went through. He started looking at, "Okay, well, adrenal fatigue, there's no research on that but there's a lot of research on cortisol and its relationship to fatigue." He just basically goes through. He reviews all the research for and against, because basically, people are diagnosing adrenal fatigue based on cortisol levels.
Christine Hanse: Yeah, that's bullshit.
Kendra Perry: It is. That was a really good episode where he actually goes through it. You can actually talk about these topics with confidence, because maybe you're not the person who has time to go through and read all the nerdy research, but someone who will sum it up nicely for you, and tell you what's there. He comes at it from a really non-biased perspective. Plus, he has lots of great guests on a lot of topics that not a lot of other podcasts are talking about, which I love. It's a little bit more cutting-edge, bio hacker info, which I love. I'm such a nerdy bio hacker. That one's really a good one too.
Christine Hanse: Perfect. I love it.
Kendra Perry: I have one of the devices. I tell my boyfriend that when we're building a house right now, I'm like, "We're gonna have a room that's multiple different types of saunas. We'll have an oxygen set up."
Christine Hanse: Oh god.
Kendra Perry: We're gonna have a float tank. He's like, "Oh, my fuck. Are you serious?" I'm like, "Oh, yeah, bio hacker room, infrared sauna deluxe. Oh, my god can't wait."
Christine Hanse: That's there. I cannot wait to visit you. You have to have it all set up and then I just test drive it maybe.
Kendra Perry: Totally, we're gonna have an outdoor natural swimming pool. We're gonna have so many fun things that you'll never wanna leave. You'll just live in my basement forever.
Christine Hanse: I said, I don't really live in your basement now if I could enter. I'm just go, and hi.
Kendra Perry: Hello, I'm here. I'm here to stay. One day you'll have to come visit and it'll be so-
Christine Hanse: I will. I will. It's in my schedule in my fiction schedule. No, it is. I really want to. We just need to look at something.
Kendra Perry: We just need to work it out. We'll definitely go spend a couple days at Sparkling Hill, the retreat I was [crosstalk 00:26:30]. It's very, very nice.
Christine Hanse: Yes, totally.
Kendra Perry: Very, very nice. All right. I have one last one that I wanted to mention. This is actually another. I'm giving a big shout out to all the Canadians today. Lori Kennedy's podcast's The Business of Becoming Podcast. Lori Kennedy is based out of Toronto. She was a health coach turned business coach. Her big focus is launching programs, and turning one-on-one services into group programs, which I think is what a lot of us ultimately will want to do. Although, some of us love one-on-one. I know, Christine, you're really focused on one-on-one. I'm now pushing over multi-group programs. She's really good. She talks about a lot of more of the basic stuff.
Kendra Perry: I would say, it's best for someone who's newer, newer health coach, newer business owner, but she covers a lot of really good topics. She's very approachable and very actionable. She gives a lot of really good actionable tips, which is the most important thing to me. I love to listen to podcasts and come out being like, "I learned this one thing, and this thing is gonna help me. This is gonna help."
Christine Hanse: That's amazing.
Kendra Perry: I'm a big fan of her podcast, Business Of Becoming. We also wanna get her on the podcast.
Christine Hanse: Yes, we do. We do. Prudent. I actually thought of one last one. It's called Join Up Dots by David Ralph. He's been in the business for a long time. I've just talked to him today. His philosophy's Join Up Dots by Steve Jobs when he has a speech about all the dots that you have in the past, they will make sense in the future. They are the dots of your future, actually. You could build the dots in your future if you didn't have the ones from your past that's joining up the dots. He actually had a severe burn out and completely went underground in his personal life as well for two years. He was very close to a stroke, and really harsh wake up call. We just talked today.
Christine Hanse: A couple of weeks ago, he resurfaced basically on his Facebook account and just like, "Okay, world, I'm back." He's gonna touch with me today because he wants to re-record an episode. We had one in the past, and he wants to do a new one because he just really understood, for your business, you need to have fun is important. Money is important. Health is important. Time is important. Mindset is important. He's restructuring his main topics a little bit. I like it. He has some very impressive people as guests on there. It's all about joining up the dots. How did you get where you are, and what does it mean for your future in a way? He's hilarious. He's this British guy and shamelessly flirting a lot of the time. Hilarious. I'm really looking forward to this episode, but I'm already blushing. It's hilarious.
Kendra Perry: Oh, awesome.
Christine Hanse: He's just got British shut up.
Kendra Perry: Awesome.
Christine Hanse: There's a lot of wisdom behind, and a lot of love. He's very successful with his podcast, super successful. He also has a podcasting school. It's just a lot of wisdom on a page, basically. Have a look at that one to Join Up Dots.
Kendra Perry: Join Up Dots, I love that. I love the dots of your past and how they form your future. Because when you're in it, you don't really maybe see how things getting through and things lining up. Eventually, you have the story, right? You're like, "That's my story. All these things happened, and that's how I got here." But when you're in it, you're like, "I don't know what the fuck is happening."
Christine Hanse: I know. Fuck you, dot.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, again. It wouldn't be an episode of 360 Health Biz podcast without a few f bombs, right?
Christine Hanse: Totally. I think that was a lot of wisdom here I love for you guys to check out. If you like them, let them know that we send you. Love in the podcasting world is always appreciated, I reckon.
Kendra Perry: I think so. Guys, if you're listening right now, take a screenshot of this episode on your phone. Share it to your stories, tag 360 Health Biz Podcast and we will share it back to ours. We are just loving the Instagram Stories these days. We're both obsessed.
Christine Hanse: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:30:45] Kendra.
Kendra Perry: We went from basic pitch Instagram stories to pretty sweet stories. I think we're crushing it. You guys should check out our stories.
Christine Hanse: We just figured out. I finally got the music badge. I had to ask for it. Can you imagine?
Kendra Perry: Oh, really?
Christine Hanse: I don't have honestly [crosstalk 00:31:01] not everyone on Instagram has it. There's no rhyme or reason as to who has it and who doesn't. Then I just asked for it. In the app, I asked for help. You can send a message. I was like, "Dudes, I'm missing this badge." Then three days later, I had it.
Kendra Perry: Oh, that's awesome. I feel like you never hear back from them, but there's somebody on the other end who's listening.
Christine Hanse: They do.
Kendra Perry: They're there.
Christine Hanse: I need to talk to you.
Kendra Perry: They're there. They'll never acknowledge that they spoke with you, but they're there.
Christine Hanse: No.
Kendra Perry: Well, I'm gonna have to ask for that too. I don't know. I've not used music in my Instagram Stories yet. That's pretty [crosstalk 00:31:35]
Christine Hanse: But you don't listen to music. I love-
Kendra Perry: You know I do. I have a Spotify account. I have a Spotify account.
Christine Hanse: That's so funny. That's one thing I remember when you were like, "I don't listen to music." I was like, "What?"
Kendra Perry: I know.
Christine Hanse: I listen to music all day.
Kendra Perry: I think I was exaggerating a little. I do listen to music. I just mostly listen to podcasts, but I do listen to music especially when I'm just cruising. No pants in my house, I usually have music on.
Christine Hanse: Yes, well, I love using them from Instagram stories. Have a look at our accounts. Follow us on there. It's a good mix of wisdom, knowledge, fun, nonsense. Today, you'll see me without pants, actually. That alone should be worth a check in and giving a five-star review to this podcast, right? [crosstalk 00:32:24] There's a little skin in here.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. Well, it was fun as always hanging out with you, Christine. I hope you have a good evening. I'm gonna just start my day right now. Probably have another cup of coffee. We will see you guys again in two weeks.
Christine Hanse: Two weeks. Bye, everyone.
Storytelling is not longer just about Cinderella and her glass slipper. No, storytelling is an integral part of your business and influencing your business’s brand. As Jamie Jensen shares in this episode, storytelling is the most human and natural thing you can do for your business. Find out how to use your story to develop your brand and where to use it. You don’t have to have just one story – you can be extremely successful with mini stories and multiple different stories. Tune in to learn about the building blocks to a good story…you’ll want to have a pen and paper handy for this one!
We cannot stop gushing over our amazingly talented guest in this episode. Jamie Jensen is an award-winning screenwriter, business strategist, and the creator of Story School. To date, she’s helped over 700 entrepreneurs increase their sales by up to 900% with the power of effective storytelling. Prior to helping business leaders connect deeply with their audiences through copy, video, and talks, Jamie worked in story development in Hollywood, assisting writers in both film & television. Jamie is the co-director and executive producer of the feature film “Hannah Has a Ho-Phase,” which won her the “Best Feature Writer” award at La Femme Film Festival in 2013, and she most recently completed her 9th feature-length screenplay.
Connect with Jamie Jensen
Get Jamie’s free All About Your About Page workbook at howtowriteanaboutpage.com
Grab our Ultimate Health Coaching Tool Kit complete with our top picks for platforms plus our sample contract and intake form: http://360healthbizpodcast.com
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Kendra Perry: Hello everyone. Welcome to another amazing episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I'm Kendra Perry and I'm hanging out with my incredibly sexy and amazing and hilarious-
Christine: Totally, guys. I totally feel it.
Kendra Perry: ... cohost. Christine's here with her beer because she says it's after 5:00am and she [inaudible 00:00:27].
Christine: Okay. Well, now I can just have a sip right? Because I was going to do it on the low key but okay, fine.
Kendra Perry: You know what? Just go for it. Let's just be yourself.
Christine: It's 5:00 going 6:00. That's totally acceptable in Europe. I don't know but ...
Kendra Perry: I think it's totally acceptable. It's like 8:00 AM here, but, you know, it's all good. I've got my coffee. You got your beer. So-
Christine: See? There you go.
Kendra Perry: ... this is how we [inaudible 00:00:44]. Awesome. So guys, we have a really good show for you today. We're going to be talking about copywriting and storytelling. As you guys know, we were just at Social Media Marketing World in San Diego about a month ago now. A big theme of the conference was storytelling. Everyone was talking about how important it is to weave your story into your brand and into your message and we loved it. We actually did a couple of storytelling workshops.
Kendra Perry: After we got this message I was like, "Okay, we need to get someone on for storytelling" and I thought of Jamie Jensen because she is an award-winning screenwriter, business strategist and the creator of Story School. To date, she's helped over 700 entrepreneurs increase their sales by up to 900%-
Kendra Perry: ... with the power of effective storytelling. That's pretty crazy.
Christine: That's an impressive number, dude.
Kendra Perry: Prior to helping business leaders connect deeply with their audiences through copy, video and talks, Jamie worked in story development in Hollywood assisting writers in both film and television. She is the co-director and executive producer of the feature film Hannah Has A Ho-Phase. Interesting. I'm like, what's that about? Which won her the Best Feature Writer Award at La Femme Film Festival in 2013. She most recently completed her ninth feature-length screenplay. Jamie, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.
Jamie Jensen: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Kendra Perry: So tell me, what is Hannah Has A Ho-Phase. What's a ho phase? I'm so intrigued.
Jamie Jensen: It's a phase-
Christine: A ho phase or a whole face? Like it's just [inaudible 00:02:15]-?
Jamie Jensen: No. Like it's a phase when you're being a ho.
Christine: Oh I ... You know what? I understood she has a whole face. Like a whole W-H ... I was like, "Well what if you don't have a whole face? Do you have a half a face? Like what does that mean?" So, okay, got it. I'm on your level now.
Jamie Jensen: You know what?
Christine: We've all had a-
Jamie Jensen: It's a raunchy, romantic comedy so that's what it's about.
Kendra Perry: I think that's fantastic. I had a ho phase once so ... I've had a couple actually so-
Jamie Jensen: Oh dude [crosstalk 00:02:43].
Kendra Perry: ... I would probably really relate to this. Whoo hoo.
Christine: Who hasn't had a ho phase? I mean really?
Kendra Perry: So I-
Christine: Very poor people I guess. Very ... I don't know. People who are very stuck up.
Kendra Perry: No it's some such an interesting bio, Jamie. I love how you did the storytelling and storywriting for Hollywood. How did you transition into working with creatives and entrepreneurs online?
Jamie Jensen: Yeah, I mean I still do all of it to be honest. It wasn't like, oh, I ... It's more of just adding. It's adding more of what I do and taking a lot of the expertise that I have, not just from studying storytelling in like a formal way, but also from, you know, the business of film, which is ... My masters is in producing and so it's very much the business of content. So you have to look at marketing as a piece of the picture and a piece of, you know, everything that you're creating. You have to be asking yourself like, "How is this marketable?" As you're developing yourself as a writer, as a screenwriter in Hollywood, you're always looking at like, “Well, what's your brand? What's your voice? What makes you marketable? What makes you an enticing package?”
Jamie Jensen: When we're looking at people who are marketing themselves online, whether they're doing a lifestyle business and it's ... they're the brand, you kind of have to ask the same questions.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Jamie Jensen: So it really wasn't ... It was really a natural transition for me to start supporting entrepreneurs. The way that it happened ... and what's funny is my dad was an entrepreneur, so I actually grew up with like learning about sales and learning about direct response copy and learning about a lot of the stuff that I ended up applying to my business and then to other people's businesses.
Jamie Jensen: But really the way that I got started was, I was writing for everyone around me. You know, people were coming to me asking for help with their website copy. I was that go-to person that, "Oh well I have to write a bio on my website. I have to write a this. I have to write a that." So I just kind of became that go-to person for people in my circles. It eventually dawned on me that that was probably the business I should be starting.
Christine: That's a lot of money in there. Like [inaudible 00:04:44] it's like something where I don't skip on. Like where I don't really don't really care what the price tag is to some extent. It's so key. So I'm really excited to hear, you know, how you teach this as well because I find to some extent you can have talent or you can't, but it's ... So it's really going to be interesting to see what your main takeaways are for our listeners today as far as you can reveal your secrets. So it's going to good. So yeah, let's go ahead.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. Well I'd love to know like I know our listeners are probably thinking like, "Why do I need a story? I have a business." Why is it important to have a story in business?
Jamie Jensen: So storytelling really is, and this is funny because this is one of the reasons why I'm obsessed with story and why it's been like my nerd obsession since I was a teenager really. It's the most human thing. It's completely natural. It's completely human and everything that you ultimately end up learning about a story when you really study it is how it speaks to the human condition.
Jamie Jensen: The reason that storytelling is so important in marketing and especially the way that you choose to engineer and tell your stories, is that it really is a bridge that connects one human to another human. When you're able to not just communicate your experience, your expertise, what you've been through, build evidence ... You know stories are how we communicate meaning, are how we communicate lessons. They're how we ... Really, it's the difference between having a really smart quote on Instagram where someone's like, "Oh my God, totally. Like, just let it go" right? Versus like watching Frozen and understanding what that really means, right? So it's like, it's a different emotional experience that allows a person to actually integrate what they're learning and make it part of themselves.
Jamie Jensen: So you could tell someone, "Oh, well, I help clients achieve XYZ" blah, blah, blah. So for example, for me, oh yeah, I've had a client. Like I helped my clients increase their sales by up to 900%", but what anchors that in reality is me telling you the story of my client, Lauren, and like how she created a program herself and how she wrote all of her own copy and how she had a hungry audience, but what she was doing wasn't communicating to them appropriately. So through the process we worked on together, which I'm not going to go into deep detail, but that's how we ended up increasing her sales. So really you're humanizing an experience and making it relevant to the person who's paying attention.
Jamie Jensen: The big reason that I'm obsessed with story and also why it's so important is like that's about emotional resonance. So where ... It's like ... I call it like you're communing with your audience because you're ... because they're seeing themselves in you and they're feeling themselves in you. It's not just like, "Oh, I want to achieve what they achieved." It's, "Oh, I can feel what they felt, like both the pain and the victory." Everyone wants to experience that for themselves. So when you can have that experience and really demonstrate results to somebody and possibilities to somebody in an emotional way, like that's when it really becomes real for them.
Christine: Totally. Makes Sense. So let me ask you a question because that's something that I struggled with and we've talked about this before, Kendra and I, which is that, we all have like ... I think in high school you even learn the typical hero's journey of the struggle and then the victory and climax and dah dah dah. What if you don't ... and for me it was an issue for a long time. It's that I don't have the typical hero's journey, right? So my niche is sleep. I've always been a good sleeper. Right? So that's ... It wasn't my personal struggle per se that I got into the business that I have. It's not like for example, a cancer survivor who managed to get much better through nutrition or something like that. I know for a lot of health coaches, a lot of them do have the personal hero's journey. But what about those who came into this business for a completely different reason and who are probably like, "Oh yeah. This is not going to work for me because I don't have this story." What do you ...
Jamie Jensen: That's a great question and it's one that I love answering.
Christine: [inaudible 00:08:44].
Jamie Jensen: So the way that you use the hero's journey in marketing isn't about always telling your own hero's journey. Sometimes it is, and sometimes you have a story that works and functions and beautifully matches up like perfect puzzle pieces with your customer's journey mirroring your journey. However, the goal isn't about establishing that your story mirrors their story. The goal with telling your story is establishing your character and your place in their journey, which means that your job can be, to be the person who's been down the road they want to walk down, but your job can also be the person who's the exact compliment and opposite of them. So your example is great because you're like, "I've always been a good sleeper".
Jamie Jensen: But another example I love to use is like, let's say that you help people design and develop websites and you're very tech savvy. Your clients are people who don't want to touch the backend of a WordPress website to save their life. Like it scares them. They're afraid they're going to break something. It's just not their genius zone. They're really good at what they do. They're not good at tech.
Jamie Jensen: Your journey's never going to mirror their journey. Your place in their story is helping them get where they want to go by being the expert they need to get there. So when you choose to tell your story, I'm sure that there are stories you could tell about how awkward it could be, because this is also just like a normal human thing. You don't feel like you belong because maybe you're the one person who is good at something that everyone else around you isn't, and that establishes who you are to everyone else who needs your support.
Jamie Jensen: So I always say, and I always ... I actually have a training. I don't even know where it is right now. Like I don't know if I have it prerecorded anywhere, about the four business stories that every business needs because most businesses have a version of, "I'm exactly like you. I've been exactly where you've been", but the other side of that is like, "I'm actually completely different from you and that's a great thing because I'm going to be able to help you with stuff that you can't help yourself with alone."
Christine: Perfect. Yeah, that makes total sense. You know? I think sometimes you just need a little bit of help with that because you're so close to it whenever you do write your story that having a framework or having someone who can just see what you don't see is super, super helpful, I reckon.
Jamie Jensen: Yeah. I think a lot of our people ... I think a lot of people in general, not you Christine, but a lot of people get into health coaching, the health industry because of their own stories. I think there's a lot of people out there in our audience who probably do have really amazing personal stories they can weave into it, but I feel like ... The thing I hear a lot is, people get into health coaching because yeah, they had their own health struggle, but they're not necessarily out the other end yet. You know what I mean? Like they're still in it.
Christine: [inaudible 00:11:32].
Kendra Perry: So I feel like people are scared to share it because it's not like, "Yeah, I have this personal health struggle, but now I'm good. I feel great. I have energy. I'm awesome." Like they're still in the depths of it. They still feel like shit. They still have whatever issue and I think that can be pretty powerful. What do you think? Like even if you haven't come out the other end, like that can probably be a really good connecting point too.
Jamie Jensen: I think so. I think that that's a perfectionism problem.
Kendra Perry: Right.
Jamie Jensen: I think that that's like a visibility problem and a perfectionism problem where you're afraid to just be real with your audience. You know, I think you can come along way in a journey and still not be where you want to go. The truth is that in life, that's really how it is. Like you can, "Oh I hit six figures in my business. Now I want to multiply that. Now I want to hit seven." Or, "Oh I ... " You know, whatever it is that you are looking at as external markers of results. Yes those things matter in marketing but the truth is that the purpose of your marketing story is to build that know, like and trust, you know, that love factor. It's to create that relationship development with your customer and for them to really feel like they know you.
Jamie Jensen: So my thing is like, be transparent. You know, the truth is that health isn't the type of thing where like we're done. Mental health and physical health, you're never done. You're never like, "Oh my God, I'm like the perfect statue of exactly what I want to be and I'm going to freeze time." Like, "This is my freeze frame." It's like health is something that we're constantly working on. It's not like ... I had a therapist in New York a few years ago and she's like, "You're never done. You're never like, 'Oh, all of my childhood wounds disappeared.'"
Kendra Perry: I'm healed.
Jamie Jensen: "Poof, they're gone. I eliminated them. I'm healed." I'm sorry. I know.
Christine: Unless you work with Jesus, it's like, I [inaudible 00:13:11].
Jamie Jensen: I mean-
Christine: Oh my God.
Kendra Perry: [crosstalk 00:13:14].
Jamie Jensen: Look, there are plenty of energy healers who are like, "I cleared it. It's gone forever." I'm like, "It's not ... That's not how the subconscious mind works, people."
Christine: No, no.
Jamie Jensen: That's fine, because you can always be improving. The truth is that if you don't take the step forward towards improving, then you're never really going to improve, like at all. But I do think that not sharing your story because you're not in perfect health is fine because no one's ever in complete perfect health. There's like actually no such thing. Yeah.
Christine: So tell us a little bit about how to use your story. So let's say that we have some listeners who are like, "Okay, I get it. It makes sense to tell my story. It's ultimately going to convert into [cashola 00:13:58] because people like me. They will trust me and hence they will finally sign up with me after stalking me for five years on my email list. But how do you-
Jamie Jensen: The long game strategy. This is long tail economics.
Christine: Just like so painful. Like how do you use it apart from let's say the obvious. So for me the obvious would be, okay, I work out of my story and then I have it on my website. Probably because I like video, I'd record it and I tell it that way. Probably have it in my copy on my website. How else can you use your story? What have you seen when working with people in ways that they've used, what they worked on with you and then kind of implemented it in different ways?
Jamie Jensen: Yeah, this is a great question. It's actually like, I've created a bit of a framework around this because I have people who do My Story School Program or who've come to me and they're like, "I know my story but I don't know how to use it and I don't know how to adapt it to platforms." So I'm just going to list off the platforms that I'm like, "These all need your story and the way you use your story in these platforms is going to be different for each platform." So obviously social media, your website, your About page. If you want to create a brand video script, I also highly recommend creating video scripts and shooting video for Facebook Ads, for funnels, written copy in your Facebook Ads? For sure. If you're going to do a talk, if you're going to build it into a book. Those are really ... I feel like those are the big ones. Speaking website, social media, book. Oh, and a webinar.
Kendra Perry: Webinar. Yeah.
Christine: So what would social media look like? So I would just be like, "Okay. I do one post" like ... Ugh, this is too cheesy. It grosses me out, but you know, you have the vulnerability posts, so I just go like. But it's ...
Kendra Perry: Disclaimer. Vulnerable share.
Christine: Yeah, [inaudible 00:15:47] like ... Eye roll.
Jamie Jensen: Why do you need to ... It's not. I want to read it less now actually.
Christine: That's as far as my imagination goes to how I would use this. So please [inaudible 00:16:00] this kind of space. Would you kind of chop it up? Or how do you do it? I mean Kendra is pretty good at this stuff too, in a way-
Kendra Perry: [inaudible 00:16:08].
Christine: ... and I know that you're stalking people who are very good at this, Kendra, too know. So I'm not very ... In that aspect, I don't know what I have, some story trauma or something, I just cannot see it. It's one of these things where my brain is just like trees. I don't see anything, you know? So how would you do that? How would you use it?
Jamie Jensen: It may be some story trauma. We can talk about that.
Kendra Perry: I love it. I love it.
Jamie Jensen: These things are real. So with social media it's a little bit different in how you decide to use your story because I think that you can actually tell the same story in like a hundred different ways and keep reinforcing it. One of the things that I tell people to do, and I talk about this in Story School is like, every story has little stories in it.
Jamie Jensen: So you can choose like ... You can choose a snippet, you can also take a snapshot and expand upon it. Like, let's say part of your story is like the moment, so the part of every story is like, "The moment I decided to shit needed to change." Right? So like you can say that in like two sentences when you're telling it any other place. But when you're telling it on social media, you can literally just take that moment and zoom, zoom in, right?
Jamie Jensen: So you're like, "I remember the moment that I decided shit needed to change. I was walking here. I was at a café. I went to a cafe with my friend. I was sitting. I remember the cafe looked like this. I remember ... " You know, it's like you get really into details and you expand upon a moment and you ... It really is this game of like time expanding and contracting depending on where in the chronological timeline of your story you're speaking to. So that's number one.
Jamie Jensen: Number two is with social media, it doesn't ... Like every ... You're going to have more than one story in your business. I think we get really obsessed with like, "This is my brand story." And the truth is that like-
Kendra Perry: I know.
Jamie Jensen: ... you need more than one, and you're not just going to have one and use one. You're going to have many. They're all going to relate to the topics in your business that you speak to that are important to you. So you know, let's say like self-care is a pillar of what you care about and what your brand values are. So you're going to have a lot of stories that relate to self-care. The core brand story work is there to really speak to what's the main thing that people need to know to understand what you do, why you're the best at what you do and why they should know, like, and trust you. Like that's your core. Who are you for them? That establishes that.
Jamie Jensen: Beyond that, like you can create a story bank. Part of the process of being a content creator is mining for stories in everyday life. So it's a little bit of both in that, you can use snippets of your brand story and expand upon them. You can take from other things that are happening in your life that relate back to the brand values that you stand for. That's usually what I would recommend.
Jamie Jensen: I think for some people it can be really intuitive and they can just create on the fly. For others, they need a bank. They need to work with someone to extract stories out of them and like give them a spreadsheet of like, "Listen, here's 20 stories that you can tell and you can repurpose them in different ways and you can tell them ... " You know, and quite honestly, if you had a bank of 20 stories on social media, people probably would stop noticing that you were telling the same story.
Christine: Oh yeah. [inaudible 00:19:18].
Jamie Jensen: Like they wouldn't notice by the time you got to 20 again, like number one happened again and they're ... They would just be like, "Wow, oh my gosh", because you're catching a new follower. You know, it's not.
Kendra Perry: Too.
Jamie Jensen: Yeah. Does that help? Does that make sense?
Christine: My eyes are like, you know, the heart or the star Emoji? It's like right here on a [inaudible 00:19:37] bank. I'm just like, cling. [inaudible 00:19:39].
Kendra Perry: Well, I love it, and it seems like what you're saying is like, it doesn't need to be this like crazy story. Like you could take small little things that happened in your life and turn them into something interesting that has maybe a lesson or, yeah, it relates back to the overall message that you're trying to tell. Right?
Christine: I just have to laugh because Kendra posted her cooler with all her food that she talked to.
Kendra Perry: [inaudible 00:20:01]. You know? [inaudible 00:20:01].
Christine: I was just like, "Oh, this stuff is delicious." And she's really good at what she does. She knows her shit, but it was just too hilarious seeing that cooler with all of the food.
Kendra Perry: Well, you know, this-
Christine: [crosstalk 00:20:16] it was like [crosstalk 00:20:17].
Kendra Perry: ... spa that I go to, they have a really expensive shitty restaurant. So I packed everything I needed in my cooler for like two days. But it's funny, everyone was like, "Oh my God, you're so healthy." I'm like, "Do you know that underneath the greens and the [inaudible 00:20:29] was four chocolate bars and like all this fucking shit crap food?" And everyone's like, "Oh my God, you're so healthy." I'm like, "Nah, I just packed a certain way."
Christine: It was really good [inaudible 00:20:41]. It was amazing [crosstalk 00:20:44].
Jamie Jensen: Strategic packing.
Christine: Totally. Very.
Kendra Perry: I'm like, "I'm so healthy", and then behind the scenes I'm stuffing like five chocolate bars in my face.
Christine: Yeah, I'm really getting into it. Like I try ... We went to a workshop at Social Media Marketing Worlds for Instagram Stories and both Kendra and I are totally flashing on it and I try to be more strategic about it now. So I literally have some days where I'll just prerecord. So I record moments and then I upload them all together in the evening. So really trying to have just a life into me. I don't quite manage to always tie it into my topic, I have to say maybe because my life doesn't quite revolve around it. Or maybe today, because today I literally didn't get out of bed cause I was just lazy, but that's not quite the same thing.
Christine: But I do find that these platforms are all pushing these dory kind of structures, you know, not to just do a one-off picture or just to do a one-off kind of video, but really to try and tie it in so that people can get to know you and that it's literally like a, yeah, like a script in a way. So what have you ... So particular to Instagram stories, have you had a client who for example said, "Look, I want to focus on that"? What have you found maybe that is great at working at that concept to also convert clients? Because in the end, it's all fun and games, but we really want to make money, right? So what are things where you said, "This is the golden ..." Not the golden ticket. We know that doesn't really exist but as close to.
Jamie Jensen: Really ... I mean social media is about developing relationships. So it's hard for me to say use conversion strategies on Instagram stories because I don't think it's about that. As far as far as storytelling techniques are concerned, it is pulling someone through a beginning, middle, and an end. So it's like, "Oh, I started cooking this, and here's all the different steps in the process." I think that process-oriented stories are probably the best thing to do on Instagram.
Kendra Perry: Yeah [inaudible 00:22:41].
Jamie Jensen: Taking people behind the scenes, taking them into the how, sharing what you're working on and like teasing-
Christine: [inaudible 00:22:47].
Jamie Jensen: ... your audience with what you're working on. Like, honestly, I think that it ... I think that the best use of Instagram Stories is always process-oriented behind the scenes.
Christine: Yeah. That's very cool.
Jamie Jensen: Taking them like behind the curtain. You know, it's like the Wizard of Oz.
Kendra Perry: Behind the curtain.
Christine: Yeah [inaudible 00:23:02].
Jamie Jensen: I can't speak to like, well what converts sales on Instagram. It's not ... I don't know. I don't look at social media that way. I think you're continuing to reiterate your message, the value you deliver, how you help, who you are. Then you lead them to the next step, which could be a landing page, could be a website, could be a webinar, could be a challenge, could be a Facebook group where you're nurturing an audience beyond what you're doing. I think that it can be challenging to build that same sense of like community and tribe on Instagram compared to the way you use other platforms and how they function for conversion, if that makes sense.
Christine: Yeah, totally.
Kendra Perry: It seems like social media is kind of like that dating part of a relationship where you're just kind of like, you go for coffee. You're like, "Hey, this is a little bit about me. Can I know a little bit about you?" But if you come in too heavy with the sale and you're like, "Hey, you want to like get married, have babies right now?" That person's going to be like-
Jamie Jensen: ... "Holy shit. That's fucking crazy. Get me out of here", right? Like I talk about relationship development like a lot with different platforms and like what stage they are. You know, like when someone opts in they're like, "Oh yeah, yeah. Take my number." You know?
Jamie Jensen: And someone who's following you on social media, like it is they're like, "We're checking you out. We're maybe flirting, but like I don't have your number yet. Like we're not there yet", right?
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I think that's important because I know I made this mistake when I was new to having a business. It's just like ... You're just like, "Oh sweet. I'll just get a Facebook page and I'll just tell people about my program and people will buy." And then you're pushing it out there and you're getting crickets and nothing's happening. You're like, "I don't understand why people don't want this from me."
Christine: I used the exact template that made Russell Brunson a gazillion billion dollars. Why isn't it working? You know?
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine: I get it.
Jamie Jensen: Totally.
Christine: It's just more difficult than that sometimes.
Jamie Jensen: It's also kind of-
Kendra Perry: So Jamie [crosstalk 00:25:10]-
Jamie Jensen: That's also the same thing as like getting into a really sexy dress, going to a party and walking around the whole time, talking about yourself. Like that's what then it's like, "Who wants to date that?" It's just like you know, it's like, "I'm really hot. I'm just going to walk around and talk about myself the whole time" and like not ask questions and not listen and not speak to them and not engage and like not care about anybody else. Like that's [crosstalk 00:25:34] person.
Kendra Perry: [crosstalk 00:25:34] that's literally what-
Jamie Jensen: That's what people do when they build their website and they're like, "It's all about me." [inaudible 00:25:41] but like no one cares.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, no one cares about you.
Jamie Jensen: [inaudible 00:25:44] care about themselves.
Jamie Jensen: Yeah.
Christine: [inaudible 00:25:47].
Kendra Perry: So I was ... Right before we hopped on the call I went and got your email opt-in and I got all your stuff and in the, your little like mini course that I think just purchased because I got sucked in, but I'm really excited to do it. But you were talking about in the first email that I got, you talked about like a story format where you said, "The desire, the challenge, the twist, the shift and the takeaway." Can you break that down a little bit? Is that kind of how you coach people how to kind of start building their story?
Jamie Jensen: So the tripwire that you bought is like, I have a five-step story formula, which is exactly that. It's ... How do I say this? It's kind of like one format that isn't as detailed as other formats I teach. So yes, I can.
Jamie Jensen: Usually, what I have people do is I have them work backwards through it. So we start with like the takeaway, which is like, what's the message you really want to deliver? What are you trying to say? Sometimes you don't know until you've like done the other five steps and then you come back around and you're like, "Oh wait, what am I really trying to say here? What am I trying to convey?" So knowing what you stand for, what's the result that you want to actually show your audience as possible, and the story that you share no matter what, should be evidence for that takeaway.
Jamie Jensen: So I always talk about romantic comedies because I've written quite a few and that's ... I write R-rated comedies, but I also write relationship-driven stories so they'd follow a romantic comedy structure.
Kendra Perry: Very cool.
Jamie Jensen: The underlying message of all romantic comedies is love conquers all. Like that's really [inaudible 00:27:21] they all end, love conquers everything.
Christine: Okay. I'm out a divorce. I'm fine. Oh no. Where's my beer?
Jamie Jensen: But if the movie didn't end with them living happily ever after and then it's like, "We don't see anything that happens after that because we're stop ... It's kind of like what you're saying with health coaches who haven't [inaudible 00:27:45] at the end and they're like, "I don't want to share my story because ... " Because it keeps going, but we get to choose what snapshot we share of our timelines.
Jamie Jensen: If the romantic comedy movie didn't end in that space, then the message would change. So you get to decide what your message is based on what you share in your story and like where you start, where you end. So know your takeaway.
Jamie Jensen: You know, when I teach this on stage, I call it ... I had a professor in college who called like, he would say he had a chicken McNugget for us. That was like his way of saying it's a little nugget of information. So he would call it chicken McNugget. It was just hilarious. So I'm like, "What's your chicken McNugget? What do you want people to walk away with? What do you want them to feel and know and do and feel confident in?" So always start with the takeaway.
Jamie Jensen: The desire is usually going to be, you know, what is it that ... If you're telling your personal story, what is it that you wanted that set you off on the journey in the first place? What created that desire? What was the goal? What did you want? The challenges like, what was hard about that? What was the problem you encountered trying to face the goal? The twist is like, what did you have to change?
Jamie Jensen: So, for example, let's say your goal ... I'm just going to use like a really ... This is just going to be really bad example, but the basic, most basic example. Let's say that the goal was like, I want to lose 10 pounds. Okay? So you're like, "I'm gonna lose 10 pounds. I'm going to do it by like not eating sugar and working out every day", which actually sounds really healthy and probably I should use a better example. But let's say that like it's not working for you or you crave chocolate every day and you're like, "I just need to eat chocolate everyday. Like I can't do this no sugar thing. It doesn't work for me." So you decided like, "This isn't going to work. I need a different approach." So that's the twist.
Kendra Perry: Right [inaudible 00:29:40].
Jamie Jensen: Then the shift is you take a new approach that helps you actually get where you want to go. So the shift is like, "Oh, here's my new approach." You know, when we're talking about storytelling, it's always about a character achieving a goal in spite of obstacles. Based on what the obstacles are and what the obstacles ... what you encounter, what happens is either the goal changes or you find a way of overcoming the obstacle that becomes part of the takeaway message. So you're building evidence for what you want the customer to know.
Jamie Jensen: So let's say you want the customer to know you can have chocolate every day and lose weight, and like, here's my system for doing that, right? So then that's the story you tell them and in the shift you're like, "Instead of not eating sugar, what I did was I let myself have one piece of chocolate every day and that actually helped me curb my cravings, and like balanced whatever and I wasn't like I had to ... I experienced pleasure in how I was eating and that helped me create what I wanted to create." So that's kind of the very fast version of teaching those steps.
Christine: I like it. So how do you work with your clients. So, I mean it's such a personal kind of topic, but from what I soused out here, there's like all kinds of different strategies that you use. You know, let's talk business here. Like the way that you structured your business, so walk us a little bit through that. If we have some people like me right now who's like on my notepad is like hire her, [inaudible 00:31:07]. How did you build your business and how is it structured now?
Jamie Jensen: Yeah, so is the question like what do I offer and what are my like what's my business model?
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.
Jamie Jensen: Yeah, so great question. I had a copywriting agency for about four years that I shut down a year and a half or two years ago now. So that was my first business model. Now my model is different. I do a lot more teaching, mentorship, consulting, optimization and like custom work. So I don't really do done-for-you writing very often. I will do co-writing with people sometimes like actually help them, they write, I write, we switched back and forth. I support them in extracting what needs to be extracted and structuring it the way it needs to be structured. So it's a little similar to like developmental editing work but it involves more like story extraction.
Jamie Jensen: I have a process for getting people to like share stuff and I go really deep with my clients. You know I'm a [inaudible 00:32:05] person so even though what we pull out is going to be like really, really legit and, and it's going to have emotional resonance, but we can also build a sense of humor into it, which is really what I do with people.
Jamie Jensen: So to-
Kendra Perry: [crosstalk 00:32:20]. I actually noticed that about your website. I was like, "Man, her copy is really good", but I laughed the whole time when I read your About page. I was like, "This is great", because I love that. I love humor. Like you know, it's like, "Well, is she serious?" We've got to like laugh and say stupid shit sometimes.
Jamie Jensen: That's what I did. Like the first website that I had, everything was super clean and like polite. The one that I have now, it's just like full of swear words and just calling it the way that it is. Ultimately people buy us. So if they don't like the way that we talk, they will never trust us and they will never [inaudible 00:32:52].
Kendra Perry: You need to bring all of you.
Kendra Perry: Okay. That sounds-
Jamie Jensen: So the business model is, I have two courses I sell. One is on writing your website copy to convert more clients and one is more, it's Story School, which is like, "Here's really like all you need to know about story structure." So I've eliminated all of the BS, like all the stuff you don't need to know, here, you don't need to know it, but like, here's actually how to tell a story to engineer it emotionally. So that's what Story School is.
Jamie Jensen: Then what I've created now that I'm actually putting together for the summer is, more of like a group mentorship program around like how to take your story and adjust it to different platforms. So it's kind of a blend of ... It's going to be like a small program, but it will be a group, but it'll be like the best way to get mentorship from me because it's not as expensive as one-on-one would be for example.
Kendra Perry: Right, yeah.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine: Which is what Kendra does mainly too.
Jamie Jensen: [inaudible 00:33:55].
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Like group programs. One-on-one I find so exhausting sometimes, but group os fun.
Jamie Jensen: Yeah, yeah. I love one-on-one, but it's ... Because I only have until [inaudible 00:34:05] group courses but it's because charge accordingly so it's fine.
Kendra Perry: Totally. Cool. It sounds like when you work with a client you kind of pull the stories out of them. I'm picturing this therapy session where I cry a lot.
Jamie Jensen: Totally. That is totally what happens.
Kendra Perry: I feel [crosstalk 00:34:19] as in, "This doesn't belong to my story. Tell me more. Boo hoo" you know? Like, yeah.
Jamie Jensen: It's very healing. Like, here's the thing. Stories heal people. Like this is, I mean, this is honestly why I do the work I do. Like, I believe that story is healing. I believe that watching someone else's story can help you have that emotional catharsis where you're like, "Oh my God. They're me." Then you actually get the benefit of that healing.
Jamie Jensen: I have people who listen to my podcast, there are episodes where I just share stuff and they message me and they're like, "Oh my God. I so resonate with this. I went through that too. I was crying the whole time listening to your episode." We don't realize the power of sharing our story that like we're not just getting clients, we're actually healing other people by doing it. So it takes a lot of balls to really go there and it's worth it on many different levels.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, yeah. I totally agree about ... A year ago I made a shift to just trying to be more raw and honest with my past and things I've done and I've shared all kinds ... If you go through my Instagram, I mean you can learn some pretty dark things about me and embarrassing and like times where I like did too many drugs-
Christine: She [inaudible 00:35:32].
Kendra Perry: ... and like all kinds of stuff.
Christine: She [inaudible 00:35:33].
Kendra Perry: But it helps. Right? I get that too. People contact me and being like, "Oh my God, I can't believe you shared that. That was so raw and it shocked me, but it's so ... Like, I did that too", you know, sort of thing. I love that stories heal people. I think that's amazing.
Christine: Totally. All right, so I think that's pretty much all we have time for at the moment. But how can people get in touch with you and hire you ideally? I do think [inaudible 00:36:02] We tend to spend so much money, especially in the beginning of our business on email and [inaudible 00:36:08] courses and on website design and all kinds of crap. It's like, I think story is like one of the key pieces. It tends to be overlooked or not taken seriously when I think, I really believe that is one of the main converters in the end, longterm game. So how do people get in touch with you? How do they find you?
Jamie Jensen: They can go to the jamiejensen.com which is where Kendra grabbed the messaging worksheet and the mini story course, which we just chatted about. So there is a messaging worksheet on that page. If you're having trouble writing your About page and you just run a workshop, like a little workbook for that, I have a free one at howtowriteanaboutpage.com that they can go grab that literally walks them through a process of like, I just ask them questions and they just answer them. By answering questions, they're actually writing the first draft for their About page. So it's so easy. It'll pull a story out of them for their About page. So I would say those are probably the best two places to go just get some support right now in like figuring out your messaging and kind of starting this process for sure.
Kendra Perry: Perfect.
Kendra Perry: Well I'll try to be less of a creeper, Jamie and I'll start to engage with you more because I've been like creeping behind your ship for a while.
Christine: See well it worked. You've bought, so it worked.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I just came out of the woodwork. I'm like, "Be on my podcast. Oh my God", but really I've been creeping for a while so.
Jamie Jensen: This has been such a pleasure. Thank you ladies so much.
Kendra Perry: Thanks for being here.
Christine: Thanks so much.
Kendra Perry: Thanks so much guys. Yeah, if you're listening to this episode, make sure to screenshot it, share it to your stories, take a 360 Health Biz podcast and we will share it to our stories and give you a shout out. If you love this episode, definitely leave us a five star review on iTunes or wherever. I think you can only leave one on iTunes. Can you leave one on Spotify? I don't even know.
Kendra Perry: I always say iTunes and Spotify, but maybe just iTunes and guys will be with you again in two weeks time with another fantastic episode. Bye.
Christine: [inaudible 00:38:01].
Have you ever wondered how to grow your sales with Facebook groups? Facebook groups allow you to be your authentic self and show up each and every day to your followers. In this episode, Joanna Novelo will dive into Facebook groups, share why having quality of members is sometimes better than the amount of Facebook members, and how to engage with the people in your Facebook group. We also discussed how your involvement and engagement in your Facebook group can help grow your followers and lead to increased sales.
With a life’s mission to invoke the same feelings that Walt Disney has for people….It’s certainly no surprise that Joanna Novelo wears a shining cape when it comes to bringing out the best in others. Joanna is an expert in community building and management as well as customer service, account management, CRM set up and management, and social media strategy. If Joanna could sum it all up in one sentence this is what she would say, “My fulfillment in life comes from seeing others transform, win, and I love being a part of that.” Her only flaw is that she feels responsible when people get thrown off their path: because, ultimately it’s imprinted in her DNA to make sure people have a good time.
Oh and did we mention that you considers herself an unofficial GIF consultant. Yea..we thought that was pretty cool too.
Connect with Joanna here: https://www.facebook.com/joanna.novelo.7
Grab our Ultimate Health Coaching Tool Kit complete with our top picks for platforms plus our sample contract and intake form: http://360healthbizpodcast.com
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Kendra Perry: Hey, hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I am your host, Kendra Perry, and sadly, I am without my lovely, beautiful cohost, Christine. Right now, she is with her little one. So, you guys are just going to have to hang out with me today, but luckily, I have a pretty awesome guest with us on today who I am really, really excited to hang out with. Our paths have kind of been crossing on and off over the past few years, and when it comes to building an online community, which is pretty important these days if you want to be successful in your health coaching business. She is the expert. I was actually in a Facebook group where she was the community manager. It was probably a couple years ago now, and I just remember her being so fun, so many GIFs, loved all the GIFs. She definitely was a GIF inspiration for me because, now, that's how I run my groups, with a ton of ridiculous GIFs, and just to give you guys a little bit more background on [Joanna 00:01:04], her life's mission is to invoke the same feeling that Walt Disney has for people.
Kendra Perry: It's certainly no surprise that Joanna wears a shining cape when it comes to bringing on the best of others. She is an expert in community building and management as well as customer service, account management, CRM setup and management, and social media strategy, so lots of great skills there. If Joanna could sum it up all in one sentence, this I what she'd say, "My fulfillment in life comes from seeing others transform, win, and I love being a part of that." Her only flaw is that she feels responsible when people get thrown off their path because, ultimately, it's imprinted in her DNA to make sure people have a good time. That is a fantastic bio, Joanna. Welcome. Thank you so much for being here.
Joanna: Thank you for having me, Kendra.
Kendra Perry: That is awesome, and right before we hopped on to record today, I was actually creeping on your Facebook group, and what I saw on your Facebook ... or not your Facebook group, your Facebook page, and what I saw was "GIF consultant." And I was like, "Yes. She totally is the GIF consultant. I love it." I love it.
Joanna: Yeah. I'm going to make it a real profession.
Kendra Perry: I think it needs to be a real profession. I love that you use so many GIFs, and you had so much humor when we were in the funnel playground together, and when I run my groups, we have a lot alike. I'm in the health coaching industry. So, we have a lot of really sick people who are in really dark places, and I like to keep the mood light, and once you kind of set the stage for [inaudible 00:02:28], everybody gets into it, right?
Joanna: They do.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. So, I would love if you could just tell me a little bit about how you ended up as a community manager expert, being kind of the expert in Facebook groups. I would love to know how you got from A to B.
Joanna: Yeah. So, it's really funny. A to B, actually, the vehicle that I used to get there was GIFs. So, it's a super funny story, and it started in the group that we were in together. So, I started out working for Lindsay Padilla, and she just gave me the space to do whatever I wanted in her business, and she was like, "Oh, does that sound good? Here take this course. Let's do this." So, I was kind of just hopping around, and she said, "Hey. So, we have this group called Funnel Playground, and we just need some help with it." And Emily Hirsh gave me the space to just play around and have fun in there, and it actually ended up being the thing that stuck, and so, it kind of just went one right after the other. I ended up being in someone else's group, and they asked me if I wanted to manage their community as well, and then, that one led to another, which led to another, and yeah.
Kendra Perry: And here you are.
Joanna: And here we are.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I mean, I just love that because that membership with Emily and Lindsay was so fun, and I mean, that's definitely what they were doing for, but it was like marketing and funnels doesn't seem that fun, but it really was fun, and I just love the energy that you brought to that group. You were just on every post, commenting with something funny, with emojis, with GIFs, and it really kind of made maybe what would have been a dry topic just really funny and lots of laughs.
Joanna: Exactly. Yep.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. So, I want to start from the very beginning here because I actually get this question a lot. A lot of people seem to be confused between the difference between a Facebook page and a Facebook group. Can you just briefly explain the difference so we can kind of set the stage? And then, we'll hop into community and Facebook groups in a little more detail.
Joanna: Sure. So, this is just kind of how I picture it in my mind. A Facebook page is kind of like your billboard. It's like your advertisement. That's where people who are just coming in off of the sidewalk are seeing you, and then, they're finding out about you. The Facebook group is actually where they've come inside, and they've sat down.
Kendra Perry: Oh, okay. I like that.
Joanna: And then, that's where you get to have deeper conversations with them. So, it's kind of like stage one, just your advertising, and then, stage two is they're coming inside, they're having a seat, and they're opening up conversations.
Kendra Perry: Okay. Yeah. That's really cool. So, it would probably be pretty hard to get a lot of engagement or build a community just based off of your Facebook page, probably just wouldn't happen, hey?
Joanna: Yeah. If you're able to volleyball back and forth with conversations with people, they'll follow your page. They'll follow your group, and they will engage in both.
Kendra Perry: Okay. That's very cool. Okay. So, let's talk about some of the different types of Facebook groups because I know there's not just one type or maybe one reason why you would use one.
Joanna: Sure. Okay. So, there are several different types. I would say as far as purpose, it's split into two. It's either that you're promising to move someone from point A to point B, which is actually the overarching of any group, is you're supposed to connect for some reason. So, that's the overarching reason of any group, and then, there are some where it's like a program where you're moving from along this journey to get a desired result, or you're networking, and so, you're just in there to meet other people. And there's such a huge variety because it can be people who sell quilts. They're in there to network with other people. Whatever it is, it's just about connection. So, then, you get into what is the purpose of the group. How is it supposed to serve you? So, if you are launching a product, is it just a container there for you to build the buzz, to build the hype, and then, there's an endpoint for that, right? And then, they might move into a paid group.
Joanna: So, with each one of these types of groups, there's different rules, and there's different cultures and vibes that are going on in these communities, and so, oftentimes, what shapes it the most is how much of an investment they're putting into it. So, you might have a free group, which is where people are just coming to learn about you to open up conversations, and we'll get into this later, but a free group is, it's the starting point of everything and where the conversation ... You've been out on social media talking, and now, they come in, and they're like, "Okay. Yeah. Let's talk." So, the free group is a place for people to bridge that gap. Then, you might have a paid membership group, and then, you might have a premium mastermind type group. And then, there's other types of launches like JV Launches. If you're launching for someone else, there's totally different rules and things around that, and then, just giving somebody a place to connect. So, for some people, and this is cool. It's cool. Sometimes, there's secret societies, private groups, where they might curate 20 to 50 people, and they're just in there to connect with each other, right?
Kendra Perry: Awesome. Okay. That's awesome. I really love that. I love the idea of kind of you can almost move people through this journey of Facebook groups from off your page into your free into your mid-level membership, and then, maybe some, yeah, premium mastermind sort of thing. Okay. So, let's talk a little bit about free groups because I know a lot of our people, they want to get clients, and they're trying to come up with ways to build that trust, build that trust, build that like and trust factor with their people, and I do know a lot of them are trying to leverage Facebook groups, but a lot of people, I feel like the biggest thing, and you probably hear this all the time, too, is that how do I get engagement. And I had this experience when I had a free group, too. It was so hard to get that engagement, to get more than just me posting in the group, right? So, why do you think it's so hard to get engagement in a free group, and do you have any tips and tricks for how to maybe improve that?
Joanna: Oh, my gosh. Yes. So, all the pieces of the puzzle are right in front of you. It's just that maybe people don't know that, that's a piece of the puzzle or what they should be looking at. So, first of all, the tone that you use in your group is different from what you use on your social media. I also have this totally radical idea that people are killing themselves to create social media content and then giving the leftovers to their group when, actually, if they just went into their group and started conversations, the social media would come out of that, and social media gets the leftovers, not your group. So, your group is not responding because they got leftovers. It's the same thing that you posted out on your personal page, and it's the same thing you posted on Instagram. So, if I were actually to flip it, and I was in your community, and I contributed to that conversation, and I saw it happen in real time, and then, if I follow you on Instagram, I see that you listened to me, number one. You listened to me, and then, you took that, and then, you put it on your Instagram, you're shining a light on your community.
Joanna: So, you're creating a raving fan out of that, and then, you're showing people out on social media what they're missing inside of your group. And then, you're driving traffic to the group because, "Hey, that's a killer conversation that came out of there. I identify with that." And you know why they'll identify with it is because it came from one of their potential peers in your group. You didn't create it. It's not from your mouth. It's from the mouths of somebody else in the group. So, they'll identify with it. So, the biggest reason people aren't getting engagement is because they know that they're getting leftovers, which is just an easy switch. Just switch it, and that just comes down to creating conversations. So, Facebook gives you tools that help you to understand what people want to talk about and what people find interesting. So, the biggest thing you can use is ... You know when you're inside your group, and you can click on someone's profile, and then, it pulls up that running scorecard of all the things they commented on, all the things that they've liked? Do you know what I'm talking about?
Kendra Perry: Yep. Totally. Are you talking about the insights tool?
Joanna: No. So, it's actually if you're just inside the group in the discussion, if you were to click on someone's name, it would pull up, "Oh, this is when they joined. This is the last comment that they left." So, you can actually see. Facebook actually took all their activity and put it into a little scorecard that all you have to do is click on, and you can actually see what that person likes, literally.
Kendra Perry: Interesting.
Joanna: I can see the comments that they're liking, and if I can see a pattern there, I can create something out of that.
Kendra Perry: Oh, I love that. That is so personalized, which is so fantastic, and I love what you're saying about creating this conversation. The way to get people engaged is to create an actual conversation instead of just ... I think maybe a mistake people make is they're just trying to educate, but they're putting a post into a group that don't really drive conversation or ask people a question. There's no reason to engage. It's just like, "This is this, and this is why you should do this," and it's like, "Okay. Great. I got that. I don't need to say anything more." Right?
Joanna: Yeah. Yeah. And so, actually the easiest way to create content for your group is through sales conversations that you're having. So, the biggest objections that you're getting, you don't even have to create any of this content. You would just take your sales calls and be like, "What did they object about this?" And then, you go to the group, and you educate your group on why that's not a thing. So, then, you're slapping down your objections for the future, but you're also teaching them because that was something they came to the call, and they were misunderstood about, right?
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Joanna: So, you take it back to the community. You teach them how to not be this person, and there's your content, and then, the conversation will take off from there.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I love that. I think you can get so much content from sales calls, sometimes, just having Post-Its. I literally will post it, post it, post it. My company is just covered in Post-Its with all these questions that people ask, and not only is that great for your group, but it's great for everything. It's great for your sales copy, on your sales page. It's great for your email marketing, just seeing ... because there's going to be a lot of overlap, typically, with those questions that people are asking, right?
Joanna: Exactly. So, there's no reason to reinvent the wheel. Whatever reason people feel, and people will always say that free groups take the most time, and it's not. I mean, I would just put up a post about an objection I got in a sales call, and I would let the conversation develop out of that.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I love that you bring that up because I hear that, too. It's so much work. It's like an extra social media platform, and definitely, I think people need to really embrace the repurposing of content idea across all platforms, right? We shouldn't be reinventing the wheel, but I love what you're saying about groups, or it can just be so simple, and you don't need to put this huge post with this beautiful graphic and all these hundreds of points on why something is helpful, but you could really just ask people a simple question that might relate to something that they're going through, and that's going to get way more engagement, right?
Joanna: Exactly. Yeah. Because if you're doing the other, you're preaching to them rather than asking them, "What do you want?"
Kendra Perry: Yeah. So, it's probably better to get more on their level, right? We don't want to be standing above them talking down to them. We want to be sitting on the exact same level with them, talking to them, person to person, like friends or acquaintances sort of thing.
Joanna: Yeah. So, some of the most successful group owners are the ones that are willing to get out and mingle.
Kendra Perry: Mingle. I love it.
Joanna: Yeah, which is why Lindsay does really well. She will always beat anyone in an organic form because she's down talking with the people.
Kendra Perry: Totally. Yeah, and I love that you say that because I was just at Social Media Marketing World, and definitely, one of the themes at that conference was like, "Talk to people. Have real conversations." If you want to try something new, ask people if they want it, and then, create it based off of the feedback that you get, which is so much of Lindsay's perspective. I love Lindsay, too. I'm in her Building a Better Beta course about courses, and it's so much about create based off of what people are telling you and what they're asking for, which is very simple but very genius, right?
Joanna: Yeah. It's very back to basics.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I love that. It's kind of like that full circle of online marketing, right?
Kendra Perry: Cool. Okay. So, I would love to know, do you have any strategies that you use for starting a Facebook group to maybe start it off on the right foot instead of kind of starting a group, having their be crickets, and then, sometimes, I'll see people just adding people in without their permission and just kind of forcing people into a group to try to make it happen. Is there a better way to kind of start that group off on the right foot so people are coming in engaged? Do you have any strategies for that?
Joanna: Yeah. So, it comes down to the purpose of your group because a lot of times, the purpose of the group is tied to how many members you're trying to recruit for it. If it's super high mastermind, you're obviously going to keep your numbers low. If you're trying to grow a free group, you're probably going to want to keep your numbers high. You're shooting for high numbers. Okay. So, that's the defining factor on how many members should I have because everyone always thinks, "As many as I can get." So, it depends on the purpose of what you're trying to do. So, everyone always thinks, for a free group, it's as many as I can get, and I'm a failure until I get at least 1000 members. For some reason, the gold standard is 1000 members like, "I've kind of made it when I hit 1000."
Joanna: So, the quality of the people that you add into your group is going to affect the quality of the output of the group. A lot of times, people, just for numbers, will add in the people that don't want to be there, and then, they're not engaging, and then, they're like, "Well, why is my group not engaging?" Well, they didn't come there to engage. They came there just to support you, and they didn't want to tell you no, but they don't have anything to contribute to the conversation. So, why would they? So, you need an avatar. So, this is what's hilarious about the whole thing. You're out in the sales funnel using this avatar. On Facebook ads, you created an avatar, and then, when you get to the group, which is where the money's at, right? Getting in there, face-to-face, and you accept anybody.
Kendra Perry: I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying.
Joanna: So, you have to stick to the avatar because you probably already, you have an avatar worksheet, right? So, you know this is the person that I'm looking for, but for some reason, when they show up in real life, like adding or requesting to join a group, people totally lose sight of what they're trying to do here. So, you have to stay in alignment. If you want people to have conversations in your group that mean something, not just basic conversation ... Do you like paperback, or do you like hardback books? Right? Real conversation. You need to stick to the avatar that you started with at the beginning of the funnel, and you're only letting those people in.
Kendra Perry: And so, how can you make sure you're only letting the right types of people into your group?
Joanna: So, you'll go to their profile, and you'll look at this is your avatar come to life. Do they fit the avatar? What things are they talking about? In the health space, are they sharing motivational stuff, or are they sharing memes? You'll see it on the profile, and if you don't, then you don't know what your avatar looks like, which means you need to practice looking at this is who I resonate with.
Kendra Perry: So, it sounds like before you even create a Facebook group, you need to ... and I mean, this comes down ... This is true for so many things. You need to have your ideal client. You need to figure out who that person is and who you're actually talking to. I feel like a lot of health professionals and newer health coaches, they're very resistant to niching down. I think there's a lot of fear around it, and I totally get it because I felt the same fear. You're worried about turning people away, but I really do believe the more specific you can be about who you're helping, the more successful you're going to be in the long run.
Joanna: So, if you're not specific with who you're helping, people don't know how to help you. The way that people who have niche down, the way they got ahead is because people knew how to help them. They knew how to send referrals because, now, I know exactly what you do. They know what things to recommend you for. They know where to tag you, and when you do five separate things, they tag you for nothing. You'd be surprised how much niching down cracks open a network for you.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I agree, and I think in the end, I help women in their 30s and 40s dealing with fatigue and burnout, but I get dudes coming to me all the time. I have dude clients who just come to me, and they're like, "I know you help women and this, but I really like your videos," and I'm not going to turn them away necessarily. If I have room for a client, and they seem committed, then I'll work with them, right? It doesn't mean that you necessarily turning people away. People need to know how to find you because if you help everyone, really, I think your help no one.
Kendra Perry: Cool. Very cool. And so, I feel like some of the maybe struggle that health coaches have specifically with building engagement in a group is that what we're, I guess, the topic that our group is going to be created around sometimes can be very person, right? And maybe people aren't always wanting to engage because they're embarrassed. Maybe they don't want to get on there on a post and talk about their heavy period or their menstrual cramps or their migraines or their loose poops or something like that. Do you have any tips for how to break through and get to those people and help them engage better when maybe there's a bit more of a sensitive topic at play?
Joanna: Yes. So, I want to tell these people that think their topic is so sensitive, nobody's ever going to talk about it that you're not special, and you're not the only one that thinks that because people who deal with groups around recovering alcoholics have the same thing. If you're a money mindset coach, it's the same thing. People don't want to talk about their money in front of other people. Groups about hormones, they get sensitive, and they, "I need to message them." So, this happens a lot, but conversation still happens. It still happens. So, it depends on ... So, conversation is a loaded word. You can have heavy conversation. You can have light conversation. So, when it comes to sensitive topics, we would probably want to have light conversation. Give them an option. So, with every post that we're putting out, we're giving them options because that's how they understand how you want them to respond back. Though, if I'm bringing up a heavy conversation, I will ask for a light response in return, so, "Who here has dah, dah, dah? Yes or no." They can participate, but they don't have to get in detail, and you gave them direction and permission to do that.
Joanna: If you have a light post that you want a heavy response on, so this gets a little tricky, but if you are trying to drive sales for something, you would want to move the conversation into messenger. So, that way, they are opening up, and you are having a sales conversation, removing roadblocks, and this is why it matters that in the group, you're taking these things out, and you're addressing them because then, you get less of these same problems in messenger, right? So, you have the conversation with them, and then, it gets to a point where you say, "I can help you with that." And then, it's a sales conversation. Otherwise, they're not allowed to keep messaging over and over again and getting more of your time. That is very [crosstalk 00:25:13].
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I feel like it's a fine line, right? Some people really do just want free information, whereas other people are serious about speaking with you about a potential working relationship together, and I guess you need to figure out where that fine line is and when to cut it off, and I think a big part of it is you need to be in control. You need to be a leader. You need to be standing in a position of power and not ... teaching people how you want them to engage in your group and being kind of like the knowledgeable leader and not just letting the group kind of create a mind of its own, right?
Joanna: Exactly. So, I work for [Brad Newman 00:25:52] who talks about ... So, this gets into a little bit of a sales conversation here, but it helps because this is where you would draw the line. There is a difference between helping someone, and then, there's a difference with letting them continue to tell their stories. So, their stories are what brought them to the call, and it's the story that's going to send them to your messenger. Do you allow them? And you'll see it clear as day now. Do you allow them to keep telling the story, or do you offer them the solution that they've been waiting for? And then, you take the story that you've been given, and then, you repurpose that within the group so that way, the other people that are telling themselves the stories are now hearing that message.
Kendra Perry: I really, really love that. That's awesome. Yeah. Because I guess we want people to share their stories, but we want them to want a solution, too. We don't want them to be in victim mode and people just not actually ... just wanted to dump stuff on you and not actually wanting a solution or to tell you why it's not possible for them to see success in whatever their issue is, right?
Joanna: Right. It's a disservice to them to not offer a solution.
Kendra Perry: Right. Very cool. Okay. So, let's talk a little bit about different types of ways to post into a group because I know there's all these cool group features that you can use, and what are some of your favorites?
Joanna: So, again, it will always come back to what is the type of group that you have, and we rattled off like seven or eight different types. So, it would depend on ... It's really cool. You can create this world based on the features that they give you, one being the marketplace where you got to set up units. You could also set up a marketplace, and that's where people would network and sell. So, you can really design whatever experience you want with the features they're giving. The most popular one is probably the units.
Kendra Perry: And is that relatively new? I first saw that in Lindsay's course, and I was like, "Wow. This is awesome."
Joanna: It's probably like a year and a half old.
Kendra Perry: Okay. So, I am behind the times.
Joanna: Yeah, and so, it's taken people a while to get used to it, to know how to navigate and to know that it's there or to look for it. So, people are catching on now. So, with units, if people are learning something from you, they're really cool. Also, if you want to map out a journey for them, you could do a first module with an introduction. So, let's say you're in a free group. With free groups, think about when you're added into one how confusing it is, and you have to learn all the posts are out of order, and you don't know who's who. So, units work really well to help organize like, "Hey, if you're new to me, start here," and you can link to your intro video. You can link to, "Here's my freebie if you haven't gotten it yet. Listen to my podcast." So, you would just make these posts, and then, just curate it under that first unit.
Joanna: It's also a really good chance to start linking to sales posts. So, that way, "Hey, I'm meeting you. I'm talking to you." And then, you progress them through. Okay. Some other things, I really love tags, but not all groups have tags. So, on your post, you can categorize things. So, if I'm looking for tomatoes, on the side, I can actually click on the tag called tomatoes, and then, all the posts that have been put up about tomatoes are tagged tomatoes. Facebook [crosstalk 00:29:52]-
Kendra Perry: So, when you say, did you mean in the little menu on the left side, you can have ... or where do tags specifically show up?
Joanna: They're on the right side.
Kendra Perry: The right side. Okay.
Joanna: Yeah. So, where it says invite members, they're usually right under there if you have it, and then, you'll see it on your post. It'll say "add topic" right under your name when you post. So, there's no rule that I know of for why do some groups have tags, why do some not.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Sometimes, when Facebook rolls things out, it happens really unevenly.
Joanna: It does. Yeah. They don't update previous groups. They just ... Yeah. They do what they want.
Kendra Perry: Okay. I have to see if my groups have that because I love that. Okay. What else?
Joanna: Yeah. The tags are fun, and it makes it really easy for you because if someone says, "Kendra, I'm looking for something on bone health," and then, you have a whole tag for that, all you do is say, hey, on the right side, click on it, and it'll pull up 20 posts.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. That's awesome.
Joanna: [crosstalk 00:30:54] organize for you. Yeah. So, I like going live in groups because even if you don't have everyone on there live, and most people don't show up live.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Very true.
Joanna: So, you got to get over it. If two people show up, so what? Most people catch the replay, and then, it happens over a couple of days. So, two hours later is not a good time to judge engagement. So, live versus video, what's the difference? It's energy, and they know that you just showed up to be yourself because you have to when you're live. When you're on video, you could always do multiple takes, and you get to choose the version that we get to see, but when you're live, it's you, and it's authentic, and if you made a mistake, so what? We're still rolling.
Kendra Perry: Funny things happen on live video all the time.
Joanna: Exactly. Yeah, but it's always a good shot of energy into the group, and it feels different from video. So, I would say go live at least once a week in your group because it just stirs things up, and when do you do it? It really doesn't matter. I mean, whenever because most people are going to catch the replay anyways.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Yeah, and I think video is just, it's so powerful these days, and that live video, too, because I think, yeah, another common theme that I hear in the marketing world is people are sick of perfect, curated content. They don't buy from brands. They buy from people, and people want to see your personality. That's how they connect to you. They want to be like, "Oh, wow. This girl's pretty funny. I could be friends with her. I feel like if we met up at a party, we would be instant friends." That's what you want people to feel, right?
Joanna: Yeah. A level of access, and groups give you a level of access that the other platforms don't.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I feel like Facebook, with all their new changes rolling out, they are so much about wanting people to have conversations and wanting people to engage and have these meaningful conversations. I feel like that's really what they're pushing their platform towards. So, when you can create that in a group, it's going to do well in the algorithm as well.
Kendra Perry: Do you ever use the poll feature? Do you recommend using that to get information from your group? Because that's one of my favorite tools.
Joanna: Yeah. So, polls are also an excellent option when you want to have those heavy conversations, and you just let people click A, B, or C.
Kendra Perry: I find when you do that, a lot of people will respond because it's easy to just check off a box. For my course I have going on right now, I want to know what do people want for support after the course ends, and I think have 60 people in the group, and 40 people responded, which is great. That's a pretty good representation of the entire group, right?
Joanna: It is. It's low involvement for them, but they can still have a voice. I would get creative with polls. I get creative with all the features just to see what can I do, but Brad, in his group, it's about sales. So, when people make sales, they'll ring the bell, and they ring this cowbell. So, we are having on Sunday a quarterly cowbell ceremony where we're honoring the ... We have five awards to give out to people in the group, and so, there's a reason behind it, but loudest cowbell ringer, that's the person that engages the most. So, we are rewarding that person for being so active. So, what we did is we set up five different polls, and we let people vote, and yeah, there were some people that had never engaged in the group that, because they could just click, that was their chance to just say, "Yeah. This is my voice. I'm voting for this one."
Kendra Perry: Very cool.
Joanna: So, if you use a variety of those tools, maybe those people that are so busy that don't have time to engage in your group, a poll allows them to chime in every now and then. Different features can work with different people. Sometimes, people are visual. Sometimes, they're audio. So, I would play with all of them and just get creative.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and see what people actually want, and I think I love the poll feature for just figuring out what should I be talking about, what topics are you interested in learning about, and then, it's like, "Great. I have the next three coaching call topics."
Joanna: Exactly. Yep.
Kendra Perry: And people may actually show up live.
Joanna: Yeah, and it was low effort by both parties.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I love what you said too about just rewarding the engagement. In my paid membership group, I always run contests. We have monthly challenges that help them work towards a goal or create a habit to help them move towards their health goals, but the more they engaged, the more they'll get entered to win some contest. I love contests and that sort of thing, and so, that really ... I mean, Facebook loves that, right? You have lots of people engaging and posting and people supporting each other, and I feel like by doing that, people are just more likely to see your posts in their feed, right, if lots of people are engaging.
Joanna: They are, and there's another phenomenon behind that, which is that it measures time. So, with contests, it's super easy to follow a journey of one week or five days or however long it is because they can see it. They can see, "Oh, five days, we're on day three of five," versus when you're not in a contest, and the group is just open, and then, they just wander, right? So, challenges will always ... accountability. Time containers always do really, really well.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I mean, I love it and super fun, and I think what's so cool about creating a community, too, is that you're the expert. Typically, in our industry, we're going to be having quasi health support groups where people are there to get supported, and you're there to support them, but when everyone else starts supporting each other, it's amazing, and that's one of my favorite things about my membership is when somebody goes on there, and they're having a hard day. They feel like crap or whatever, and they're venting. Like, I'll come on there later and see 50 comments of everyone supporting them and being like, "Hope you feel better. Do you want to talk? You can call me." And some people have actually met up in person who live in the same area. So, it's very cool how you can kind of be the connector of people, especially in the health industry. The biggest thing when you're sick is that it's very isolating. People feel very alone.
Joanna: So, this reminds me of this show I was watching yesterday about ... It was one of those experiments where they would give these kids one marshmallow, and if they could wait 10 minutes, they would get two marshmallows, and only one was able to actually make it, but then, he got two marshmallows, right? And so, this is when it comes ... This is exactly what people do with their Facebook groups. If you are willing to curate people that are involved, that are your avatar, that are your messenger to help you spread your message, you will get that second marshmallow, which is exactly what you just described. They take over the group for you, and then, you actually don't have to do anything. You can go live once a week, but you don't have to do any involvement because your people have found each other, and that was your only job in all of this, right, was to get them into one spot. They have found each other. They will entertain each other. It's kind of like a house party where everybody's happy, and you can slip away upstairs, and nobody notices the party still keeps going.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I love that, and another thing I love to do, too, is just to you kind of get to know your group members, and you figure out who's an expert in what, and I have actually quite a few other health coaches in my group who just needed a health coach of their own, and I have one member who does a lot of mindset and tapping. And I mean, I'm not a woo woo person. I know nothing about that stuff. So, when people have questions about that or want to know more about that, I can always tag her, and she likes feeling like the expert, and she loves to just come on and give her two cents, and I think you can really utilize the expertise of your other members in a lot of ways as well to cut down the amount of work you have to do.
Joanna: Yep. And this is really the height that you want to reach in your group, is having those fans that are taking care of your group for you, and then, you are connecting them inside of your group. So, that way, your network and their network builds up together. This is what it's about.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. That's awesome. Do you have any suggestions for ... because I know some groups that I've seen out there get a little bit out of control. They kind of get overrun, and there's people posting promotional stuff in there, and it kind of starts leaving kind of the purpose of the group was originally built for. Do you have any tips for what you can do to prevent that from happening?
Joanna: Yeah. So, your group does require work. You can't walk away from it, and you have to stay true to what the purpose is and not let it stray because people will ... They will snatch it away really quick, especially if you have built a really large audience. They will try and just do anything to just get in front of them, even if the consequence is being deleted and removed. So, it comes down to curating the right members for your group. So, this is not only an advantage to you in finding the right members, but you're also protecting the people that you have already curated, and it's really selfish of people to think, "I have to hit this number no matter what it costs me or my community." A thousand members means nothing unless they're a thousand quality members that are your avatar and there to spread your message. So, a lot of times that happens because that's people's end goals, is just the numbers rather than focusing on bringing in the right people. So, if you have the right people ... and then, also, those raving fans we're talking about, they will shut those other people down if it starts getting out of control, and they'll say something.
Joanna: And also, the other thing is, sometimes, people just walk away because they're just tired. They're just tired of having to produce the content all the time. They're tired of having to be the face. They're tired of having to show up and provide. They maybe have let their boundaries down, and they let some people into messenger, and they're taking advantage of them, and then, they see the group as the source of that. So, they neglect it. I would say, and this typically happens with free groups, right? If it happens in paid groups, that's more of a culture fit for the member, but this is more about the free groups. So, you have to have a time container for yourself, and then, you have to relay that message to the people in the group. So, is this a pop-up group? Is this only here temporarily? Or is this open forever? If it's open forever, you have to show up. If you promise once a quarter, you have to show up once a quarter. If you promise once a month, show up once a month, but you have to show up. If you can't show up, show up to say you can't show up, and just shut the group [crosstalk 00:43:21].
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Okay.
Joanna: Breaking promises a lot is when people ... because your group goes on the back burner, and then, you're like, "Well, it was just a live in that group," and then, it just keeps getting brushed off, and then, you lose interest. They lose interest. If you're not in the group for a purpose, and you don't know the timeframe of it, which you should always know the timeframe of it, you will lose sight of everything, right? If I know this group is open for the next six months, I know what I need to plan for. If I'm just like, "Oh, I'll just grow it. I'll just grow it." I mean, that's people's strategy, like, "Just get more people in there."
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Kind of just like an afterthought in a way, hey?
Joanna: It is, yeah. So, if I'm getting ready for a launch, I have three months until launch. I know what I need to do three months before the launch. You always needs to have a focus for it.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and another thing you said that popped out to me is being willing to protect the members who are in the group, and I guess not being afraid to kick people out when they don't fit in. I've done that in my membership group with somebody who was just bringing a lot of negative energy into the group, and I was like, "You know what? This doesn't fit. This is affecting the other members. So, unfortunately, this person has to go. I'll give them a refund, whatever." But I think you have to be willing to be the leader and realize when there's people who are damaging the community, right?
Kendra Perry: Which isn't always easy, but sometimes, you've got to do it, right?
Joanna: You do. Yeah. Do you want to make one person happy or 75 people upset. This goes down to that.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Exactly, and when your people are in the group, and they're engaged, they see that, right? They see that this person is a virus or bringing everyone down, and they're just waiting for you to do the right thing and take that person out.
Joanna: Exactly. So, one thing that we haven't touched on yet was about energy, and I did want to touch on that because I know that-
Kendra Perry: Sure. Lets do it.
Joanna: ... your crowd will get what I'm saying. So, this touches on how they affect the energy of the group, but most of your success is going to come out of being able to identify your energy patterns in your group, which is also why you need to have a timeframe on it. So, if I'm getting ready to launch, I know that the energy needs to start ramping up. So, people will call this momentum. They'll call it high engagement. So, those are codewords for energy, and you can push it up. You can bring it down. You are like the ... It's an orchestra for you, and you're the conductor, and there's all these strategies out here that do this, right? They'll start drumming up attention for your business and stuff. So, what's fun about the group is it actually captures all the energy, and you can take it and just play with it, and that's why launch groups are so fun because it's just all this energy being shot into the group, and then, so, let's take a paid group, for example, that supports a course. Let's say a course. This'll be easy to illustrate. So, when I join a course, I'm so excited. And so, I would put posts up that I'd just tap into that, like, "Oh, my gosh. I'm so excited you're here. We're partying and everything."
Joanna: And then, will come some work, and then, I'll be like, "Oh, my gosh. Now falling behind. I'm falling behind," and then, now, I'm feeling bad, and now, I'm embarrassed. So, if you know ... and that's a very typical pattern of people buying courses, right? They get on this high from purchasing, and then, they realize there's work. [crosstalk 00:47:23]
Kendra Perry: Or they're either overwhelmed and ... totally.
Joanna: Yeah. It's more than what they thought it would be. It thought it was going to be more plug and play. So, they have all these emotions of having to deal with work. So, you can manipulate that ... manipulate, we'll use that very lightly ... by bringing it up, and you can say, "It was hard work when you signed up, and you knew that. Now, you're just mad because you actually have to do it." I would just put that in their faces like, "You knew this wasn't going to be easy, but you bought it anyways, and here we are. So, it's time to roll your sleeves up." So, then, you bring that back up, and then, they find it to be very intriguing because you look like a psychic like, "How did you know it was going to be hard?" So, you kind of just map out that whole journey. They'll think it's hard, and then, I'll bring that back up, and then, I'll get them some quick wins, and then, they're like, "Wow. Actually, you really know what you're talking about." And then, we just keep building on that momentum. So, that's energy. That's how it will move, especially if you have a launch where you have 100 people that came in at the same time, and they're all going through that. Everybody's excited. Everybody's coming back down. Everybody's like ... and then, it'll split.
Joanna: 50 percent will give an effort. 50 percent won't. So, if you start controlling those energy points, everyone will stay on the same page, the community is tighter, and your completion rate goes up, and then, you get retention, and then, people are willing, and then, all the things you said you could do is happening, and then, they're asking you what's next.
Kendra Perry: I love that. Yeah. Yeah, and I think it's just about being aware that, yeah, people especially in health, people are going to self-sabotage. They're going to fall off the wagon, and just telling them that, "Hey, I know that you feel off the wagon. I know that you ate that three pieces of chocolate cake, and now, you feel guilty, but that's okay. It's okay that you fell off the wagon. It's okay that you feel overwhelmed. Let's get you back up there. Let's get you back on the wagon." Because it tends to happen on a very specific point, especially with health. It's not like this linear progression of feeling better and better and better. It's very much a rollercoaster.
Joanna: Exactly, and everybody's seen that picture of success is not linear, and then, they show what success actually looks like. Everybody's saying that, but then, when it happens in real life, they can't make the connection that, that's what happened, that they just made the loop back, and then, they go up. So, it's inevitable. You will make mistakes, and so, if you give people space to say, "That's okay," and then, you tell them, "I was expecting you. I know that was going to happen anyways," they can forgive themselves much faster and just keep moving forward. So, when you see how the energy ... when you're trying to control the energy and everything, if you have someone that is behind you trying to control what you're doing by being negative or calling you out on things, there can only be one conductor here, and it has to be me. I'm the one that moves the energy in this group, not you.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. You don't want to have everyone else doing it because then, it just gets confusing, and you lost control, and you want to keep whatever vibe you decided to have in that group. You want to keep that as much as possible. That's very cool. So, I love when you're talking about turning community members into clients by sort of you kind of direct them into messenger, and then, have the sales conversation on messenger. Is that your favorite way to kind of turn community members into clients, or do you have other ways that you recommend people try?
Joanna: Yeah. That's going to be what's going to open up your conversation because that's where they're going to admit things to you that they wouldn't say in front of the group, but the group, you're using it to open up and just kind of poke around. It's like the dentist when they're just picking around at the beginning to see what needs work and what doesn't, and then, they step into your office, and then, you have the real discussion. People are not going to just tell you everything right up front, but they can give you permission to come find out, and what you're looking for is permission. So, the group will actually act as a permission slip like, "Hey, I see that. I get that. Step into my office, and let's talk about it." And then, it's like, "Okay." I also think that your free group is like your best advertising machine. Besides it producing the content for you on your social media, you can just be there with them. It's like sitting at a table with them and just asking them, "What do you need? What bothers you? What do you need?" And then, you get to have that conversation on display, and it just works for you. Yeah, I'm sitting here giving my energy to 10 people, but at the same time, 500 are seeing it.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Yeah. I love that, and I feel like you've made, in this conversation we've had, you've made me feel that Facebook groups are much easier than I'd made them out to be.
Joanna: Yes, and everybody's like that because I mean, there's a scarcity thing to this, too, right? It has to be hard, so I can sell you my course, but it's the easiest out of all of them because all you have to do is just say, "What bothers you?" That's the easiest. So, I don't have to go on Instagram and research hashtags or create a graphic or any of that. I don't owe anybody anything but figuring out what's up.
Kendra Perry: Yep, and then, you can just add a fun GIF to it, right?
Kendra Perry: Pretty much, every time I post to my group, yeah, there's no graphics. There's nothing curated. It's just the most random GIF that I can find, and people love it.
Joanna: Yes. So, with GIFs, GIFs are your biggest time-saving tool because I can connect with people. Let's say with both watch friends. If I know that I can connect with you and bond with you over Friends GIFs, I also, in a variety of Friends GIFs, can pick ... There's some where they're yelling. There's some where they're laughing. There's some where they're crying. So, I can pick the emotion, and I can match your emotion, and then, that also connected with you because we both love Friends, and then, it just looks funny.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Totally. I love the humor component of it because yeah, it's just so fun to get people to ... I love asking questions in my group like, "Tell me what you did this weekend with a GIF, or what did you want to be when you grew up with a GIF?" And then, it's hilarious, and people love it that you did that because they can just go down and see all these hilarious GIFs and try to guess what people are trying to say.
Joanna: And it's also a little alter ego. Sometimes, I pick GIFs of celebrities, like Jim Carrey, right? If I want to be exaggerating, I will pick a GIF from him, but he's like my alter ego.
Kendra Perry: So, you just use him all the time, or you could be like Beyonce and use all the Beyonce GIFs, right?
Kendra Perry: I love that. Yeah. I never really thought about that alter ego concept, but yeah, you could totally create that and have that energy into your group. Awesome. So, Joanna, where can people find out more about you if they want to dive deep into Facebook groups? I feel like you've provided us with so much great information. At the conference I was just recently at, I saw a talk on Facebook groups, and I was just like, "This isn't good at all." But what we just talked about in the past hour blew that out of the water. So, you are [crosstalk 00:56:05] so much good information. You should be talking at that conference next year.
Joanna: Let's just cut this out, and we'll send it to Social Media Marketing World.
Kendra Perry: Totally.
Joanna: [crosstalk 00:56:16]
Kendra Perry: [inaudible 00:56:16] for the conference.
Joanna: I love it. So, right now, I am calling home my business page, which is Experience Magic. So, I go live there. I do Magic Mondays [crosstalk 00:56:36].
Kendra Perry: Oh, I love it.
Joanna: So, on Mondays, I go live. So, I've been behind the scenes for a really long time, and so, I'm not really somebody that's able to be found yet. So, that would be the only spot to find me, but yeah, so, I have decided that this year, I've had a lot of people asking me ... They want to learn community. It's finally, after all this time, become a thing, and everybody wants to learn about it now. Yeah. So, I'm going to step out. It's nerve-racking. I get nervous seeing my face on camera, but got to do it, right?
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Totally, and I know we're both in Lindsay's course right now, and I think I saw one of your posts where you're like, "Ah, I'm so scared to come out from behind the scenes," because you have been still behind the scenes, but you have such a great method. I mean, you are such a great speaker, such a great teacher. I mean, you've got to get out there, girl.
Joanna: Yeah. Yeah. It's time.
Kendra Perry: Cool. So, it's Experiencing Magic is your Facebook page, and we'll be looking for you live every Monday for your Magic Mondays, and we'll be seeing more of you soon, a bit more of you soon, and I can't wait to learn more from you about communities. I'm going to go on your page and eat it up.
Joanna: Yes. [crosstalk 00:57:58] thank you again for having me today.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. No problem. It was so fun to hang out with you today. I really appreciate you being here, and thanks, everyone, for tuning in. We'll be back in a couple weeks, and I will be with my better half, Christine, next time, and guys, if you love this episode, and you love this content, let us know. Leave us a five star review on iTunes. That helps us get out in front of more people, and it just helps us know that you like what you're hearing and that you want us to create more episodes like this. So, thanks so much, everyone, and have a fantastic day.
Tools mentioned in this episode:
Provider Resilience Application that gives healthcare providers tools to guard against burnout and compassion fatigue as they help them. Available for all devices and free.
Breathe2Relax Application that is a portable stress management tool which provides detailed information on the effects of stress on the body and instructions. Available for all devices and free.
- Grab our FREE Practitioner Tool Kit to get a list and review of all the platforms Kendra and Christine use personally in their businesses to save time, money and generate consistent income.
- Grab Dr. Hallett’s FREE guide, “10 Steps to Being Stress-Smart & Becoming Your Own Best Friend.” http://bit.ly/ownbestfriend
About Kristina Hallett:
Board Certified Clinical Psychologist and Executive Coach, Kristina Hallett combines science and soul for practical, fast results. She uses her decades of psychological experience and down-to-earth approach to facilitate progress and change. Her mission is to bring the latest scientific research to practical application, helping people feel more empowered and productive. Kristina is also an associate professor, speaker, author, and co-host of the Be Awesome Podcast, featured on Mental Health News Radio. She has been featured widely in the media, including U.S. News and World Report, NBC News, Reader’s Digest, Huffington Post, Medium, Bustle, and many other outlets.
Contact Kristina Hallett:
Christine: Alright everyone, hello and welcome to this episode of the 360HealthBiz podcast, and today you will have me on my own without Kendra, who is actually lounging in a hammock in Costa Rica at the moment. Bless her, not jealous at all, but I do have wonderful company. I have Dr. Kristina Hallett with me and we are going to talk all things burnout. So today is going to be a continuous education episode for you guys. And so let me introduce Kristina very quickly to you. So she's a board certified clinical psychologist and executive coach, a combination which I adore. She combined signs and so on for practical fast results. Killer combo, the only thing that works in my opinion, she uses decades of psychological experience and down to earth approach to facilitate progress and change. Her mission is to bring the latest scientific research to practical application, helping people feel more empowered and productive. Kristina is also an associate professor, speaker, author, and co-host of Be Awesome podcast featured on Mental Health News Radio. She has also been featured widely in the media, including US news and World Report, NBC News, Readers Digest, Huffington Post, Medium Bustle, and many other outlets. So we are here with a pro. I am super excited. Kristina, welcome so much to our episode here.
Kristina: Oh, thank you Christine. I am delighted to be here. This is so much fun. I love is. How wrong is it that I say, I love talking about burnout and compassion fatigue, right? Because...
Christine: Most of us, we love talking about poop as well, right?
Kristina: Exactly. Yes, exactly. So this is one of my sort of like, you know, Hashtag banished burnout, right?
Kristina: As long as knowledge is power and the more we know and that's so true in all of the work you do. You know, I, I have looked through, we've talked about your work and it's so impressive how you really look to bring in every element of a person's functioning. So I'm thrilled to talk with you.
Christine: Yep, absolutely. And that's what we're going to do today when we talk about burnout. So it's going to be a fantastic episode. I'm really looking forward to this. Now, before we start though, for everyone who's listening, as always, we're going to start with a tech tip and Kristina is actually going to share her favorite app today, and as always, don't forget to surf over to iTunes. Leave us a five-star review if you're like this, if you like our guests, just give us some love and you can also support the show and become a patron of the show. It's all on our website, 360healthbizpodcast.com. So Kristina, Kendra and I, we love geeking out on tech, right, like we love digital business and you have an app that you wanted to talk to us about today. And for those of you who are listening on the podcast, if you actually surf over to the blog, we are recording this and video form and you can actually see her demonstrating this, so just a quick note on the side. But without further ado, let us know what is your secret kind of weapon that you have in your arsenal.
Kristina: Oh, and there's so many of them, so it was a little hard to just pick one. But today I'm going to tell you about an app, and it's free and it's available on Android, IOS, like you name it, you can get it, it's free. And it was ultimately developed in the US as part of the, Department of Defense. It was developed for the military. There's a whole suite of apps and they're all ones that I use. And there's tons of research that went into it and they are completely appropriate for all civilians as well. So I use these in my executive coaching across the board. I also tell my students about them because I'm teaching in a graduate clinical mental health counseling program. So this is number one what providers need, and it's called Provider Resilience. What could be better? So I'm going to tell you what's on it so that listeners can hear, but I really do encourage you to go to the video because some of this you just want to see. Open up the app right at the top is a, it's like a half rainbow, and it's your overall resilience rating. And so for those of you who are watching, there it is. That's the resilience. Okay? Now I have these set up purposely, I have a separate one, so I have two of them. This one I use for demonstration purposes, you'll see why. So that half rainbow goes from low where it's red, because we usually associate red with warning signs, all the way up to green, which is good. Love that. Love green.
Kristina: And so, all of these different components that I'll describe are a part of this app and they make up your overall resilience rating. So right underneath that you can put in, this cracks me up, time since your last vacation.
Kristina: That's one of the keys for burnout, right? So in my demo, this is not the truth. This is not the truth, but I'm going to tell you that according to the app, since my last vacation, it's been two years, one month, 10 days, 23 hours and five minutes.
Christine: I would die.
Kristina: That would be so bad, right? So not only is that a ridiculous amount of time, but I love the specificity.
Kristina: It literally counts down to minutes since your vacation. So you can just add in when you're most recent vacation has been and then keep track of it because as providers, that's one of the things that we often forget to do.
Kristina: We're so busy taking care of other people and hello, we need to walk our talk and do this.
Kristina: So there's a vacation clock, there's also a section called burnout and there's a whole burnout scale that you can do, and one of the tools in this. This is why there's so much to this one app. That's why I'm like, it's just phenomenal. I talk about this in presentations I give across the US and internationally and literally people are pulling out their phones and downloading it because it's, there's so much in it. So there's something called the pro-qual, and that's the professional quality of life scale. And it's really nice to have this as a measure. It's a nice measure. It's a self-report. It's about 26 questions, and as you fill it out and then scores it for you and you get three scores, you get a compassion satisfaction score, a burnout score, and a secondary traumatic stress score.
Kristina: That gives you your overall pro-qual or your professional quality of life. So we know that as soon as you have, and I'm sort of getting into what we're talking about here, but it's all about the app, so tech and talk at the same time.
Kristina: We have to have some marker, and then we continue to do this and we compare the marker so we can see, are we making progress? Are we doing better? Which one of those particular skills is moving in which direction? Right. And it's all right here. So see down here is the pro-qual. That's, that's the pro-qual. Again, these are demonstrations but each one of them gives you a little rainbow. And it tells you, in this case, apparently, oh this is so bad. It's been 838 days since my last update of the pro-qual. So it keeps you accountable as well.
Kristina: I know, but again this is for demonstration, so I'm aloud.
Kristina: Now it has another section called Resilience Builders and Resilience Killers. And so it's got examples. And so examples of resilience builders are, did you take a short walk?
Kristina: Did you perform at debts? Stretching or isometrics? Things like that, and you can put in your own something that you've identified as a resilience builder. And then when you go to resilience killers, that you're going to love this. Did you skip lunch?
Kristina: Have you eaten junk food? Did you come to work sick today? Right? So it's got all of those different things, and then it brings you back to your dashboard. Now there's also tools. One of these tools that cracks me up is called, 'Remind me why I do this.'
Kristina: You also get a graph of your pro-qual results and a graph of your burnout results.
Kristina: And then, my, one of my, I would say this is my favorite, but they're all my favorite. There's a section on physical exercise and what it is, it's the directions on how to do various chair yoga poses.
Christine: [inaudible] I love that.
Kristina: Yes. And as you just simply scroll through, it gives you different exercises and I particularly love this. Overall, my approach for all of us as professionals is that we need things that we can do in about two or less.
Kristina: And many of these things we can do either sitting at our desk or literally when we take the bathroom break, right? And often there are so many things about counteracting burnout and working towards resilience that we say, 'oh, I just don't have the time for that.'It's going to, like we think about, 'oh, take me half an hour to get to the gym.'[inaudible]
Christine: Change and...
Kristina: Yeah. So know everything that I'm talking about are things that are free. They're accessible, and they're very brief.
Christine: No excuses people.
Kristina: Right. And oops, lost the headphones I want to listen to. So, so this one is super great. And the one caution, that it's not a caution, the one reminder that I give to people, is if you're going to do one of these exercises, make sure you do both sides because you don't want to just turn to one side and forget to turn to the other side. So do both sides. And then the final area in this particular app is something that's called value cards. They're alphabetical, so at the moment what shows up is idealism.
Kristina: And so it has a little text describing idealism, and if I swipe, then comes up independence…
Kristina: initiative. So there's another one, so there's a whole alphabet word, integrity, joyfulness. So different values that are important to us as healthcare providers, really important to us as people, but particularly when we're in the business of healthcare, we are some of the worst...
Kristina: at taking care of ourselves. And I'll use this as a teeny segway because do you know that in the most recent studies in the US on physicians and Burnout, over 70 percent of physicians who are surveyed show at least one of the characteristics of burnout.
Christine: Oh my gosh, let's get going on this because my ears are like, what? So I mean, burnout is like this term that's being thrown around all the time. You know? Yeah. Some people who use it very negatively because unfortunately, you know, it's, a lot of people don't really know what it is. They don't know what it manifests likes, there's abuse that is being, you know, I don't know, in Luxemburg in particular, there's lots of people who abuse it and they just get three weeks or three months of work because they claimed to have burnout. So I think it is first of all important to understand what it is and how it manifests, especially either to become aware that you as a practitioner might actually be going down a slippery road or, what I also find uber important, is when we're working with a client and I mean not everyone is qualified to work in that particular area. A lot of us are coaches and I find that it's our duty to know when we've reached our limits, and I find knowing that someone is on their way to a real burnout that's out of our boathouse for most of us. So for me, this is really on the one hand looking at ourselves. You just said how many practitioners are actually well on their way of suffering severe burnout. How to diagnosis or how to get good idea of what this might be going on with my client or when it's time to refer out. So I would love to talk about these areas. I know it is super vast topic, but I know you are the go to person to talk about this, so I cannot wait to soak up your knowledge on this.
Kristina: Oh, thank you. And that's literally one of the things that in my executive coaching I really specialize in because I have the psychological knowledge. So I'm a person who literally others refer to when they get to this place, when things have become too much.
Kristina: And so I love the fact that we're able to think about this. And I'm going to start off with giving you an example of a time that I discovered that I was burnt out and because it happens, it doesn't happen at the same frequency necessarily all the time, and it's not always obvious, and yet it's something we have to pay attention to. So my big personal hashtag is always radical self-care. Because that means, right? Literally paying attention to what's going on and radical self-care for me means things like setting limits and having boundaries and owning your strengths and knowing when to say no and when to say yes to you, things like that. So that's the talk that I'm always giving to everybody. Here's a day, I drive home, and usually I parked in my garage, and I walked through the garage into my house. As you walk in, there's a long table, and that's where we put the mail and other things that are going to go in or out. So every day in a row I walk in, I look at the mail, I leave things, I move things, it's fine. And usually what happens is the dogs run up to greet me and my husband comes over because he's usually home first and he gives me a hug and a kiss and I say hi and I look at the mail, blah blah blah, you know, normal, ordinary life. So I notice many days in a row that there's like a basically a lot of junk on this table, and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. 'Hi, how you doing? I add to what I take away all fine.'And then this one day I walk in, and as I walk in, the dogs come over, my husband comes over, he's smiling and saying hi. And I look at the table and I look at him and I'm like, 'what is all this mess?'And he's like, oh right. He's sort of gives me that look. And I was like, 'is anyone ever going to clean this? Like what is going on here? Why does this look like this?'And there's a pause. It's just like, 'Oh God, you know what, what is she doing?'
Christine: 'What is going on?'Yeah. Lost the plot.
Kristina: And he very gently says, 'honey, I think that's all your stuff.'
Christine: Wrong thing to say.
Kristina: Well actually, luckily because this is my area, right? And we've got to, you know, heal thyself. So I look at him like, 'you're right.'And I thought instantly what is going on? Like this was an over the top reaction.
Kristina: The scenario was no different than any other day before and yet this. And it wasn't even that much. Like you know it, this is one of those, it took like five, maybe six minutes to put everything away and clear it off. So this...
Christine: But it just triggered. Yeah.
Kristina: Total trigger total over the top irritability and reaction. And luckily we work, he and I well enough together and he knows me and if he says, if he's going to call me on the carpet and hold me accountable without sounding defensive, there's something for me to look at. It was very clear to me, as I looked at it, that I had gotten to a place, because I was loving what I was doing and busy. So it wasn't that things were bad.
Kristina: But I wasn't following the steps that I teach people regarding radical self care.
Christine: Right, ok.
Kristina: And that those little irritants had grown and grown and grown and I hadn't stopped and taken the time to shift the pathway.
Kristina: Whether it was the mess or internally, and so therefore match, tinder, boom. Off I went now it wasn't a bad episode of burden. It was like one of the early stages of that. But that kind of irritability, that's something that is an absolute emotional sign that burnout is going on.
Christine: See, I would just think, 'oh, I just had a back day. I'm a little bit tired.' You know, so I'm actually self-evaluating myself and I didn't have like a trigger like that. But it definitely feel tired and so much going on that I'm like, 'Ooh, hang on, I might need to do some yoga poses here.'
Kristina: Exactly, exactly. So let me just go over some of the different categories of symptoms that we might see.
Kristina: Obviously they, these can account for many different things because you just gave a good example. We know that you’re the sleep expert and so not having enough sleep is certainly something that can contribute to getting some of these symptoms, but not sleeping is also a sign. It's one of the very first physical signs of burnout. So chronic fatigue, insomnia, getting sick a lot, weight gain or weight loss, appetite changes. Those are some pretty significant physical signs. Also aches and pains, a lot of aches and pains are a sign that you want to pay attention. Now if you just have one or two of these, obviously we always want to look to them straight medical first, is there something going on for us physically for anything because we want to rule that out, right? So I don't know if I had pneumonia, for example, or mononucleosis. I might be very, very tired and feeling achy and sick all the time, but in the absence of a known clear physical illness...
Kristina: you need to pay attention to that. So similarly, lots of headaches, stomach aches, aching joints, fatigue, insomnia, change in appetite, and again, I know that you'll appreciate this. We might also see an increased drive for junk food, sugar, particularly sugar at nights. Yeah. So physically that's what we'll see. Emotionally, anxiety, depression, irritability, anger, pessimism, cynicism and detachment.
Kristina: Right. So one more sort of like, 'oh, just go away, just leave me alone and go away.'
Kristina: That's again, that's sort of another, to me these are all yellow flags.
Christine: Interesting. Yeah.
Kristina: Right. So you want to think like how many yellow flags do I have?
Kristina: Similarly, at work, it could be a drop in productivity or forgetfulness, difficulties with concentration and attention. So all of those can be signs that burnout may be going on and we want to pay attention to that because if in fact we're seeing a whole bunch of, oops I just, something went wrong. If we're seeing a whole bunch of those different signs, then accumulative number of those or seeing that over a number of days. So absolutely as you said, anyone can have a bad day, anyone can have a bad couple of days, but when you're beginning to feel this way more as more often than not, or as a regular course, you really want to begin saying, 'hm, let me do an assessment.'That's why I love the Provider Resilience app.
Christine: It's true.
Kristina: Because you can log this and you can sort of say, 'hm, how are things going?'Now one of the other things that we know, is that everybody has this recency bias. So anytime someone comes into my office and I say, how are you doing? Literally they start telling me about the last 48 hours.
Kristina: The 48 hours are good. They're like, 'oh, I'm great, blah blah, blah, blah,'and then they say, 'oh, you know, a week ago x tragedy occurred, but you know, last few days.'
Christine: I'm fine.
Kristina: Or they've had things go really well, but in the last two days they've gotten stuck or they're struggling and they come in and they're like, 'oh, I feel awful.'
Christine: I get it. Yeah, it's like when my clients come, I've been sleeping well for two months, but the last night I had a bad night and it's like, 'oh, come on.'You've been sleeping so badly before every night, so yes, Yeah.
Kristina: So we want to pay attention to that for ourselves and in our clients. Right? We want to keep in mind that people are immediately looking at really the short term past what's gone on. And so that's why I love tracking, so using particularly tech tools to track how are you doing or how is your client doing, having your client track, doesn't matter and you know what? Your client doesn't have to be a healthcare provider, anyone can get this app. So even though I'm saying 'Provider Resilience' and it was made for healthcare professionals, it works for everybody. That's what's fabulous.
Kristina: But particularly relevant to the healthcare professional.
Kristina: So we begin to track this. We're like, 'okay, I'm having more and more of these signs. What's going on? What do I need to pay attention to?'And then we need to step back and begin to take sort of an inventory of what am I seeing and how strongly is this feeling? You know? And so remember I mentioned pessimism and cynicism.
Kristina: Right? So I want to highlight those...
Christine: I have the [inaudible] my cynicism sometimes.
Kristina: So and so do I mean I am, I consider myself a realist, although my friends will often also say that I'm Pollyanna, not so I don't ignore the truth. I totally believe in bringing in a realistic view, but I want it to be balanced. So I think our goal is balanced. We don't want to be up all the time. We don't want to be down all the time, right? We want that seesaw to be relatively balanced. So the prime key for me is when you look and you say, am I in balance? Like in general, if I think of the last week or the last month and having data helps, then am I in balance? Or are there more days where I'm catching myself being this other way? So I'll give you an example from one of my executive coaching clients, senior executive. And the reason she came to me as she, she said, 'hey, I think I'm having some real anxiety, maybe going into depression and so maybe I need therapy.' And I said, you know, can we talk coaching first before therapy because like, let's see where you're at, let's assess this. So instead we did coaching and what it was was burnout, and here was her sign, her number, two major signs, one was she noticed that at work, little things were irritating her.
Christine: Yes, I have so many clients with that.
Kristina: She was finding herself being a little shorter or a little more snappy to her staff, and she was really beginning to think, 'okay, how quickly can I retire?'Now this was a young woman. She was not at traditional retirement age, you know, sort of early, middle age. And so literally as she loved what she did, she didn't want to stop it. But she understood that she was feeling irritable.
Christine: Something was happening. Yeah.
Kristina: Yes. And I think one of the things that we do is when we begin to question this, we might go into this other area of, am, do I have an anxiety disorder? Is this depression, anxiety and depression go hand in hand, and we may be feeling more anxious, so she was also waking up and immediately overwhelmed by thoughts of her workday and what was she going to do, and how could she manage it and would get anxious. So she was experiencing anxiety. She was experiencing some of the early signs of maybe like an irritable agitated depression, but she didn't have a full blown anxiety disorder or she wasn't in a major depression. And that's part of that differentiation I think is important because early intervention can make such a difference and so I don't want us to pathologize things and that's what we do. We tend to say, oh look, right, because we're often so critical, so I was fine, fine, fine, fine, fine. And now everything's, everything's blown up and it's awful. And that's where that pessimism and the cynicism can come in, and we are sort of overly negatively catastrophizing how we're, how we're doing.
Kristina: So the other sign for her was that she would come home and she was too tired to do the things that she said she knew she should. So she wasn't exercising, she had a hard time at making a healthy meal and she'd sit on the couch and eat cookies and basically give herself a hard time mentally about sitting on the couch eating cookies and not exercising. And so literally she was like, I know what to do. Like, you know, I'm not an idiot. I know exactly what to do, but I can't get myself to do it.
Kristina: And so what I said to her, as you know, let's think about this differently. What if we think about this as burnout and what if we say it's at a stage of burnout that absolutely, in a very short period of time, there are some things that you can do, hashtag radical self-care, in order to stop the progression and turn things back so that you're back to loving the work that you love, feeling, that you have energy doing what you need to do to take care of yourself.
Kristina: So one of our very first interventions was starting the day off with laughter. Laughter is the best, biggest hit of dopamine that we can get.
Christine: I love it.
Kristina: Dopamine makes us feel good, right. So she loves, this sounds so silly. She loves funny YouTube cat videos.
Christine: Oh gosh, who doesn't.
Kristina: Right? Exactly.
Christine: Totally up there.
Kristina: Dancing parrot. I liked the dancing parrot, right? They crack me up.
Kristina: So now traditionally we would say, don't look at your phone right away. Don't go on media. Okay, that's all well, generally speaking, that's true. As in don't dive into it.
Christine: Don't check your email. Don't go on the internet. Yeah.
Kristina: Exactly. But for her, the minute she woke up, she was flooded with these anxious thoughts about what she had to do and how she didn't want to do it. So we needed to get that to stop right away.
Christine: Not spiral out of control. Yeah.
Kristina: Exactly. Five minutes of silly YouTube videos, she would laugh...
Christine: I love it.
Kristina: and then get out of bed with the energy and the positive mood to face the day.
Christine: I love that.
Kristina: Shower, eat, etc. and later go look at the email. So that's just one example. That's radical self-care.
Christine: That's amazing.
Kristina: Right? And that's what I mean. Simple intervention, simple short, no cost or low cost interventions.
Kristina: Some other interventions that we used for her, really worked with her on time blocking in her day. So as a senior executive with an open door policy, because she wanted to be accessible to her clientele, she didn't feel like she ever had time that was focused to do what she needed to do and the burnout was inhibiting her focus and concentration. So we talked about, if you think about this as coming from a place of you want to have the most to give those that you work with, you must have a break. And there is so much research in the...
Kristina: peak performance and mindset, literature on the fact that we can only work for a certain amount of time...
Christine: Of course.
Kristina: and then we need a break.
Christine: It's much less than we actually think it is. Like an eight-hour workday it's just ridiculous. You never going to get eight hours of work done, it's just ridiculous. Power naps baby. Yeah.
Kristina: Yes. So we actually need, the research says, and it depends on what it is that you're doing, but somewhere between 50 and 75 minutes, we must take a break. Meaning you can't work longer with focus concentration than either an hour or an hour and a half, sort of depending on what you're doing or what your profession is. And so at about 50 minutes you need to take a brief break. What do we do? We pull up our Provider Resilience app and we use some of those things to rejuvenate us during that.
Kristina: So again, right? We're talking five minutes or less, and that context switching in that moment, basically reboots your brain so you can go back in with increased focus and concentration. So that's one of the ways we use some time blocking.
Christine: I love it.
Kristina: We also had her set aside some dedicated time where she could in fact close her door for half an hour and attend to those things that were really high priorities...
Kristina: but that would, right? Again protecting her and saying no, so she could say yes to her to have more, to give.
Christine: Love it. So this is obviously super important when we have a client or when you know for ourselves, you know, if there's someone listening and it's like, okay, I see I literally coach five clients a day for one and a half hours. It's like, come on, you know, how's your brain supposed to do that So I think for ourselves, this is a super important one. Now my next question would be, I know that if you know, you have a case where this person wasn't as mindful or wasn't as open to, you know, get help straight away. I mean, this lady, she was aware, she knew that something was going on and most of the time our clients usually feel that something's not right. What do we do when we have someone? Because if you have a full blown burnout, it's seriously physical incapacitating and it can leave permanent damage. So, what would you suggest? What are some of the signs where you would say, okay, this is actually not just a yellow flag, there's this like orange verging on red. When is it time for a general health care provider or health coach to say, this is not my boathouse anymore. I need to refer this out in order to give my client the best care possible.
Kristina: The things that I see most commonly at that more advanced stage of burnout are an unremitting fatigue, a sense of hopelessness and this negativity or pessimism about the ability to change.
Christine: Interesting. That is a thought I cannot change anyway.
Kristina: Right? There's nothing. It literally comes down to I'm helpless and hopeless. There's nothing I can do. I have to do ABCDE. There's no getting around it, nothing can change. And our thinking, the more burnt out we are. We just talked about a lack of mental flexibility.
Kristina: So the more burned out we are, we're not regenerating and we're not recuperating and so we have narrowed options that we're seeing as what, how we can manage something. So I mean I just think of parents who will say, 'oh, we'll have to take care of my kids and I have to work and I have to take care of the house and blah blah blah blah blah.'And you say, 'well, what if you wanted or what have you left the dishes in the sink overnight.' 'Oh, I can't possibly do that.'
Christine: Okay. So complete inflexibility and, and like not seeing the forest for the trees.
Kristina: Right. And this degree of, it's not even, it's even beyond flexibility. It's often this, huge resistance, and that won't help.
Kristina: Even if I did that, that won't help.
Christine: See, I wouldn't have known that. So this is super interesting to me, okay.
Kristina: Yeah, so again, we're often using the relationship we have with the person to say, how about, how about you? I'll say like, let's test the hypothesis. Let's do an experiment, right? People love that. People like, all right, right, fine, because we're not gonna. I'm not gonna say, I mean I think I'm right, but hey, what do I know? I'm not you. You know this. So are you willing to engage in a little experiment to see what happens. Now one of the core techniques that we're using to manage burnout aren't really because burnout is about stress and stress management, right? Whatever the stressors are, it's all of that. Stress doesn't have to be bad, but that's a whole other conversation. The power of stress. But when we're talking about in this way, one of the impacts, again, of stress, is that decrease in cognitive flexibility. And stress means that our limbic system and our Amygdala is highly activated. So basically we're on red alert all the time.
Kristina: That's why we get the irritability. We have a greater startle response.
Christine: Yes. Just on edge.
Kristina: At all. It's almost done. Right, I'm on edge. I can't catch my breath even though you're not out of breath.
Kristina: That feeling like the world is coming down on me.
Christine: Your lungs are just too small suddenly. Yeah.
Kristina: Yeah. So breathing. Now I literally, people look at me and they just sort of roll their eyes and they're like, seriously? Seriously like, do you like have anything better than that? I'm like…
Christine: I know. They want something new.
Kristina: Let me tell you. Yeah. And I'm going to say my techniques fall under another catchphrase. 'Simple, not easy.'They're very simple, but it's not easy because you have to make a commitment and you have to persevere in applying the technique. So it's simple but not easy.
Christine: Love it, yeah.
Kristina: And so really validating that like, this isn't going to be easy, but if you don't want to feel as crappy as you feel, I can change that.
Kristina: And we start that with breathing. So I'm going to throw in here another little app for you because this is one of my favorites. There's about a bazillion different good breathing apps and I will say to people, 'hey, find one search, find something that you love that works for you,'but the same group that developed Provider Resilience, did this app that I'm going to tell you about, and it's called Breathe2Relax. So it's the word Breathe with the e, 2 the number 2, Relax, also free, totally available.
Kristina: And the reason I love this is it has an audio component, so there's a voice that tells you what to do. You can set the background, so you have a pretty background and you can adjust the length of the inhale and exhale so you can customize it. But the part I love the best is it has a little cylinder that fills up as you inhale and then the cylinder.
Christine: So you visualize it.
Kristina: Exactly, exactly. If someone has an apple watch as an example, there's a that there's a little circle and it gets bigger when you breathe in.
Christine: I love it, yeah.
Kristina: Fabulous. So again, we're talking like you can do this two minutes, two minutes or less when you go for a potty break. So, it also gives you a rate your stress, so you can rate your stress from low to high so you can track it as well is, it's always about tracking. But if I go to this, come on. Alright, I'll just start this and I'll show you a little teeny bit of it just so you can see the cylinder. And again, for those of you who are listening, check out the video so that you can see this because it's pretty awesome. All right, so oops.
Christine: Oh yeah, I can see it. Alright and so now and again, yeah, I love that. So you have this cylinder filling up and basically emptying out again, I love it.
Kristina: Yes. And I picked flower background because it's nice and it's a soothing voice, whatever, but you can set it to whatever you want. So what we know is that all of our sensory memories, good and bad, are stored in the limbic system. That's what the amygdala does. And that's our warning system as well. So when we use additional sensory components, we can help calm the amygdala down even more. So this app in particular, we've got the audio sensory who have the visual sensory, right? Both of those are there as it's guiding us to do the breathing, which is the important piece that we're really trying to do. So it's the breath that makes such a difference. The amygdala in that with the other sensory components.
Christine: Exactly. And that's what I love to tell people is that you are in control. Like your brain, yes, it is incredibly complex, but it's also incredibly basic, and you can control it. It's the best thing in the world, especially if I have people who are like, 'everything's out of control. It's spinning out of control. I'm just a slave to my thoughts.'And it's like, no, you're not. You can use your physiology to literally control your thoughts.
Christine: Which I think is super powerful and empowering really people in so many different ways. I do these things with my clients before going to bed, but this is definitely something super easy. But yes, not or simple, not easy. Which I think is a great tool to let people know, and I love also that you told us what to look out for. So we're running out of time, but I think we know after this episode, we know what to look out for, what you watch out for, for ourselves. Like I definitely have a couple of yellow flags at the moment and super stressful at the moment. Right now. My business is going great. So lots of stuff going on. So I need to walk the talk as you said, but also for my clients, like, I looking back, I definitely had at least five to 10 clients where I would say they were definitely showing some signs. Inadvertently I do a lot of techniques that help burnout as well. But I loved that you said that one of the main things that you have to kind of think about referring out is that when people become stuck, you know.
Christine: And really give up on themselves and just think this is never going to change. And if you don't have the right way of talking to them, I believe that you hit a wall and you're not serving them. So for everyone out there, if you do have a client like that, please, maybe they can even get in touch with you and ask you for advice. How would they do that?
Kristina: Oh absolutely. So you can always reach me through my website, which is a DrKristinaHallett.org. D r K r i s t i n a H a l l e t t dot Org. You can also email me and seriously my email is out there everywhere but it's Kristina M as in Mary, KristinaMHallett@Gmail. I'm so happy to talk to people. You can reach me through LinkedIn or Facebook and this is exactly it. And you know, one of the things that I do is I often partner with other coaches. So for example, if you were working with someone on your sleep coaching and they got to that point...
Christine: I'm just like, oh, not quite there with my practice, which, you know, I do stuff paper to a certain limit but I'm not a clinical psychologist or psychiatrist or whatever, you know. So I know when I reached my limits I would just say, look Kristina, I want to refer you someone, let's just do this together. And if they fine with it actually may be exchanged notes, depends on the kind of course. Yeah.
Kristina: Exactly. And then I would work on that piece and then send them back to do the piece that they were doing, because I'm not trying to be an expert in everything either.
Kristina: So one of the people that I work with in fact is teaching people about money management and being in charge of their financial side of their business. But same thing if a person you see this with entrepreneurs all the time, if they get burnt out, they're stuck.
Kristina: Those blocks that need to be addressed so they can go back and do that. I don't want to teach somebody about the financial aspects of running their business. I'm good with mine, you know. So that kind of thing. So I absolutely love that, because to my mind, then everyone's getting to be in their wheelhouse, their area of expertise…
Kristina: but also making a difference.
Christine: Absolutely. And I think it's a sign of being an integrity and it's also a sign of being a high end coach if you have a referral network, if you have a team that you know can help you with, just showing that you have a great network and it's just professional. I just find people knowing when to say stop and having someone they trust that great to work with, that's just showing how professional you are. So anyone who's doing coaching but it has a lot of these types of people and it's like I don't feel quite equipped for that. I think Kristina would get better results. She obviously has the experience. She has the credentials. We just heard her speak, so everything's just been golden. Then do you get in touch with her. We have all the links on our website, 360healthbizpodcast.com. You'll just have to click on the links and you can get in touch with her and I just think this is amazing. Have a look at the video where she's demonstrating the app. We're going to link it as well in the post on the transcript and that's all we have time for today. Kristina, I cannot tell you how grateful I am for you being here and sharing all this system with us. I think it's a topic that's, you know, people roll their eyes as soon as they hear the word burnout because it's just been used so much, but it's very, very real and I think because so many people are fed up with it, they don't care to even look further into it. So I think this is a golden episode that every health practitioner is mandatory to listen to it.
Kristina: Well, thank you so much for having me on. As I said, this is my passion because I truly believe that we can feel better and when we feel better, we give better care and so that means that we're literally making a difference in changing the world, and we have to start with ourselves.
Christine: Yes, we do. I love this. I'm totally in love with you right now. Crushing hard.
Kristina: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Ditto, so there with you.
Christine: Alright, well everyone, thank you so much for tuning on, surf over to iTunes if you've enjoyed this episode and give us some love there, and all the links on our show notes on our website and we're looking forward to talk soon, next time together with Kendra and stay tuned for more business tips and also continuous education tips, which we did today. So thank you so much for being with us and that's it for today. So bye.