Have you put a crap load of money into Facebook advertising only to hear crickets? You aren’t alone. Like many marketing tasks, there is an actual strategy required to be successful with Facebook ads. But where does one start? Should you wing it, should you DIY it, should you hire someone, what kind of budget do you look at? In today’s 360 Health Biz Podcast episode, we have Meg Brunson to break this all down for us…plus more!
Before you even start putting out Facebook ads, there are three things you absolutely MUST have..a proven product (with a proven sales funnel), and email list with an email sequence, and some money to play around with because like we have said in previous episodes, social media marketing is all about testing.
In addition to testing Facebook ads, in this episode we discuss:
- the difference between a lead and a conversion
- how Facebook ad algorithm works
- what can & can’t be advertised on Facebook
- the biggest things that health and wellness businesses get flagged for on Facebook
- the do’s and don’t for ad images
- how to write engaging Facebook ad copy
- scheduling Facebook ads & the review process
- Facebook pixels
Meg is a former Facebook employee who provides marketing support to parents who want to build their business without feeling guilt over the "balance" of family & entrepreneurship. Her clients enjoy predictable leads/traffic and positive ROI within 3 months - and spend more time making happy memories with their kids than they do stressed over their marketing.
Connect with Meg:
Take Meg’s quiz, What is missing from your Facebook marketing strategy?: https://www.megbrunson.com/boss
Connect with us on social:
Christine H.: Hello everyone, and welcome to this new episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. Today, you are being greeted by my wonderful, sexy, beautiful, smart and [inaudible 00:00:14] today, cohost [Stace 00:00:17] Kendra. By myself, Christine Hansen. We also have a very, very special guest for you here, and it's very timely because we have a huge rant yesterday on YouTube about this topic. Strap your seat belt on because this is going to be a juicy one.
Christine H.: It's going to save you tons of money and it's going to make you tons of money, and what's not to love about that? Without further ado, we're going to introduce her, so Kendra, take it away.
Kendra: All right. We have Meg Brunson here. She is a former Facebook employee, which is very exciting, who provides marketing support to parents who want to build their business without feeling guilt over the balance of family and entrepreneurship. I love that. Your clients enjoy predictable leads, traffic, and positive ROI within three months, and spend more time making happy memories with their kids than they do stressing over their marketing. Awesome. Welcome Meg. Thank you for being here.
Meg Brunson: Thank you for having me.
Christine H.: Brilliant copy, by the way.
Meg Brunson: Well thank you.
Kendra: Well, I love that so much. Before we started and before we hit the record button, you were telling us a little bit about your life right now. You can tell us a little bit more about what you're up to and how you got into Facebook ads and Facebook marketing.
Meg Brunson: Yeah, so let me start back a little ways. I was always a little bit entrepreneurial, but for a long time I was just side hustling it until my third pregnancy. When I got terribly sick almost died at times, and told my husband, "I'm done punching a clock and I'm going to do this entrepreneurship thing full time. I'm going to make it work, I'm going to figure it out." That's what I did, I was kind of an accidental entrepreneur, as I like to call it. I had to figure out marketing.
Meg Brunson: At that time, it was a little bit different because this was, gosh, seven, eight years ago. Facebook marketing was totally different than it is now, but I leveraged it and loved it, and was very successful with it then. I quickly became kind of go-to-person in my circles for Facebook ads. This is a very abbreviated story. We moved across the country. I interviewed for a job at Facebook. I almost didn't even get the interview because they were like, "Wait, you were a criminal justice major and you've got no experience with traditional marketing channels. Are you sure this is job you want to apply for?"
Meg Brunson: I was like, "Oh, yeah. I've thrown myself into learning this stuff." They gave me the interview and were like, "We're going to test your knowledge, this isn't just" ... "Yeah, I'm fine. I'll do it." I interviewed, I got the job. I worked at Facebook for about a year, so it wasn't a terribly long time and it was quite simple [inaudible 00:02:59]. I tasted the entrepreneurial freedom and flexibility. I at that point had four children, and I just didn't want to punch a clock. I didn't want to put 40 hours in at any job, no matter how-
Kendra: Yeah. I get that.
Meg Brunson: -more present to my family. I left Facebook, I built my business on my own for two years before I left my four bedroom home. We piled my entire family, my husband and I, and four kids into a 35 foot RV. We've been traveling the United States for four months now, with the goal of hitting all 48 contiguous States in a year. We're 28 States in.
Christine H.: Wow. I'm a huge fan of tiny house nation and [OCA Haida 00:03:46] stuff. I can only imagine, but we did. Okay, I'm a drama queen. You have to know, I do love my luxuries, but we did 10 days of ... It's not [inaudible 00:03:57], it's much smaller. It's like one of these Kempster kind of things, like the California thing than where you have the car and you have your, you can lift the roof and stuff. We did make it happen, but it's just not my thing. Having four children in there, I'm like, "Woman, there's something different to you?"
Christine H.: I don't know. I'd use my mind entirely, but I think it's the best story ever. Yeah, obviously, it says as something I think about entrepreneurship. I agree, you can never go back. It's just once you know it, once that flame is kindled, there's just no way that it's ever going to go back. Facebook is just, it's the coolest thing in the world. I would know to say that I've worked for Facebook, it's just so fun. You could just have my coffee and it would have been fine.
Christine H.: What obviously was so interesting to us was that, your business that you've now been building is on Facebook ads. One of the things that we vented about was that, people even very beginner beginners. Let's say, people who happen a little bit in business but haven't really had lots of clients yet or who have maybe just created a course without even looking at what they can do or without experience of [inaudible 00:05:13] sold in different words, but in essence that Facebook ads is the silver bullet.
Christine H.: If you have a huge ad budget, you will see a return in investment guaranteed. I will quote, and the reason why I can run, I know a lot about this business because we both been working with Facebook managers. We've both invested tons of money and we did the whole, that was like a year ago, I would say. We did the whole weapon off funnel off thing and it went wrong in so many ways. We left a lot of money on the table.
Christine H.: We talked about how you actually need to know what you're selling, but I think it woke us a little bit through when is the golden time to actually say, "Okay, I'm ready for Facebook ads." Should you wing it, should you DIY it, should you hire someone, what kind of budget do you look at? Also, because we are in the health space, what are the challenges you might expect there that, let's say, if you hire someone who's only used to work with business coaches or with maybe product services, might not expect and probably gauge wrong.
Meg Brunson: Oh, there's so much.
Christine H.: Go ahead.
Meg Brunson: How much time do we have? I would say, before you start running Facebook ads, there's a couple of things that you should have clear. The first one is, I really honestly believe you should have a proven product that's made money. [crosstalk 00:06:46]. That's the most important part. But Mark Zuckerberg, CEO of Facebook, he has enough money, so do not run ads on Facebook just to donate to his fund. He doesn't need your money. Do not be investing in Facebook ads until you have a plan to get that money back.
Meg Brunson: I think one of the number one mistakes I see people make is they're like, "Oh well, I just posted really good and Facebook told me if I spent $20, I would reach 10,000 more people and so I boosted the post." I'm [inaudible 00:07:21], "Did you make any money or I don't know. You just donated $10 to the Zuckerberg fund, you don't even know what it did for you." I tell people to ignore those little messages from Facebook.
Meg Brunson: Those are like the candy bars in the grocery store aisle. [inaudible 00:07:42], they're quick, they're easy. It's Facebook's way of getting you to experiment and spend some money, which I don't think is a bad idea. But I think people do it too quickly before they really even understand how Facebook ads work. I did the same thing. I'm going to be really honest here, we were in '70, I made some of the same mistakes. I was running Facebook ads and at the time, I was trying to get people to join my list. That was my number one goal.
Meg Brunson: I would boost posts then I would look at my list to be like, "Well, I got these many people and normally I get this many people so it's working, I think." Then I found ads manager and there were all these different ads you could run. I'm an official person, a creative artsy person. I created a couple and I was like, "Well, they all look the same, so it doesn't really matter. I'll just run this one."
Meg Brunson: Now I know better, that's not how ads work. Number one, have a proven product, meaning that you're getting sales from it. It's important to know that you're driving traffic to an offer that people want, that your copy is right. Maybe the product is fine but your copy is not right, so prove that funnel and you can get that traffic organically from Facebook groups.
Meg Brunson: There's so many ways to get those initial sales that just not require throwing a ton of money into Facebook ads. That's number one; you need to have a funnel, a product. You need to have an email list and an email sequence.
Kendra: [inaudible 00:09:25] with that. We have people who didn't even have list. They were selling stuff and they didn't have an email list. That was just like tears in my eyes, like seriously.
Meg Brunson: I've had clients that are like, "Oh no, I don't use an email service. Can you just email me each lead as they come in." I'm like, "You've got to get a list. You need a list." People will say email marketing is dead. One of the things that I think a lot of people do is; they look at themselves and they'll say, "I don't open a lot of promotional emails, therefore, nobody does," and it's not true.
Christine H.: No, it's not.
Meg Brunson: Email marketing is not that. You need to have a sequence.
Kendra: You do. I'm guilty of being [inaudible 00:10:05] investing and my funnel is one welcome email. But I do have a weekly blog post that's going out biweekly, once a week it's for sleep and the other week is business. I have something created every week. I have to say, most of my friends aren't on my email list. But I've really with looking with Instagram and things, and how unreliable it is, it's 2020, it's for me back to the email.
Kendra: I can [inaudible 00:10:31] priority focus. I left it aside a little bit, but now that I'm like, "Okay, I have everything set up." Actually, I can now really focus on it and have the subscribers. I purge often and I throw people out if they're inactive for 30 days and it leaves me with a really, really good pool of people. It's back in my priorities. I think you can do it in ways, you can say this [inaudible 00:10:56] a lot of time.
Kendra: It's not, I think the first thing you need to do to really focus on building the list. I think it focus on building the product, the list will have been part of it. But for sure, I totally agree that email marketing is dead, right? I can tell.
Meg Brunson: No matter what your field or your expertise at, there are other people who do what you do. I am not the only Facebook ads manager in the world, but I'm just not. No matter what you do, sleep, there are other people that do ... No matter what you do, so you have to think about that. If somebody wants your product or your service, they've got a selection of people to go with. You need to hook them with your freebie, get them onto your list.
Meg Brunson: Then, how many times do you buy a product that you've never heard of before? You don't. You like it, you follow it, you research it, you get more information and you make the purchase later. I've heard seven touches. It could take seven touches, sometimes it takes more, sometimes it takes them less. People need to know and trust you, and I feel like that's one of those cliche things that everybody sells. But it's cliche for a reason, because-
Kendra: I agree. Exactly. I think you need to know that they can trust you or they need to, right from the gate, know who you are. Which is why we teach how to use your own voice, how to even figure out what your voice is, so that you can shortcut the process. Because people usually don't follow me for a long time. It's impulse buying because they are [inaudible 00:12:29], but it's an exception. Mainly in-house, it is long stock before they get in touch. That's what it is [inaudible 00:12:38].
Meg Brunson: Yeah. I know I'm kind of jumping around, but having the email list, having a proven funnel and then I think having money to play with. I don't mean we're just going to throw money away here, but ads are not a guarantee. I have to tell people this, I feel like I'm the worst salesperson because I'm brutally honest.
Christine H.: No. We're honest. It's the best sales per se.
Meg Brunson: I had a woman say, "Well, you're not making me feel very confident about this." I was like, "Well, I think there's a lot of things you have to do before we're going to see the return. I'm happy to work with you through that, but I don't think we're going to see a return in the first two or three months." She's like, "Well, then-
Christine H.: Because I feel so many people take the hard-earned cash that they've just earned, and it's like the last hurrah. They're going to say, "Okay, now I'm just going to invest it in. That's what's going to help me to make it." What kind of budget do we even look at? Because I think people have no clue how much they could need to invest or even figure out what Facebook likes and what it doesn't. What are we talking about, is it just 100 bucks, is 1,000? I was amazed that, I think people have no clue.
Meg Brunson: It really depends upon your goals and it depends on your funnel. I'll break that down a little bit because I know that's fluffy and it doesn't really answer your question. I want to look at like a typical funnel, where you want to get a lead on your email list, and then you want to get a conversion. This is very basic, like two step right [inaudible 00:14:19]. The cost for getting one lead is going to be less than the cost for getting one conversion, right?
Meg Brunson: It just makes sense because there's less skin in the game, it's easier for somebody to make that decision. If you want to run a lead-ad, you're going to need to spend less money than if you're running a conversion. I'm just trying to break down those basics.
Christine H.: By the way, what's between lead and conversion?
Meg Brunson: A lead is an email. I'm going to give you this piece of value, whether it's an opt-in or a blog post, or whatever. I'm going to give you some value and you're going to give me your email. Now you've obtained a lead. There's two ways I should say. You can do that as a conversion ad, but you can also run it as a lead generation campaign. Which is, I'm going to be honest, my favorite. The difference is, the conversion ads, you're driving traffic to your website, to your opt-in page.
Meg Brunson: We've got it all nice and pretty email, and [inaudible 00:15:18]. Generation ad is, it's all on Facebook so you don't need an opt-in page. This is really great for people who are not as tech savvy, maybe they don't have a landing page builder or may be to be just have a WordPress website, and they don't have ClickFunnels, or Kartra, or Kajabi, or something. With the lead generation ads, when the user clicks the button to learn more or sign up, it's a pop-up window internally on Facebook.
Meg Brunson: It loads faster than your opt-in page; one, because it's internal and it will also automatically populate information from the user's Facebook page. If you're asking for email, it'll automatically populate the email. That either, they use to sign into Facebook with, the most recent email they've used on Facebook and another lead-ad. It makes it really quick and easy. It's mobile optimized and everything happens on mobile, everything. Mobile is like 95 something where they see less percent of Facebook traffic.
Meg Brunson: Lead-ads are really great. Then after they submit the information, you can direct them to a thank you page and you can use Zapier. Is a third-party integration tool to link Facebook lead-ads to whatever CRM you're using: Mailchimp ConvertKit, Kartra, Infusionsoft, literally anything. I really like that for generating leads because it's quick, it's easy and it works.
Meg Brunson: Then when I'm talking about conversions, I'm talking about selling your product or service. Whether it's a course or a strategy session, or something you're actually going to pop in the mail and send to them. [inaudible 00:16:58] because that requires money, so it's going to be more expensive. You might get leads for a dollar a lead, or sometimes they're more expensive. I also tell people, it depends upon your niche, what you're selling.
Meg Brunson: At one point last, I had two clients at the same exact time. One was getting leads for $25 per lead and one was getting leads for 25 cents a lead. They were both thrilled. It can be $5 leads. On the back-end, she was selling into a series of products that culminated up to $10,000 coaching plan. Her return justified the higher lead costs. Then the 25 cent leads were like a parenting blog and she was leveraging them to get more sponsors and stuff. That was really great for her.
Meg Brunson: There's not like a cost per lead that's baseline, but it really depends upon your business, your nerves and how you're able to convert them on the back-end after getting them on your list. Which is why that email metric sequence is not to be ignored. Understanding those basics, now I want to step back and explain how Facebook ad algorithm works. When you select what type of ad you want to run and the objective, your campaign level of those ads. In order for Facebook to optimize correctly, you need to get 50 of those actions, 50.
Meg Brunson: Here's what conversion, again, I feel like I use that word a lot and it means a lot of different things, but 50 of those actions in order for the campaign to optimize. What'll happen is, you're going to say, let's just use leads as an example, the lead-ad. You're going to run a lead-ad and you build an audience. Let's just say there's a million people in the audience. I'm going to try to keep numbers relatively easy.
Meg Brunson: Facebook at the very beginning is going to serve this ad out to some people in your audience. All million will not see it, some people. As people start to respond to get leads, Facebook's going to say, "Oh, so these four people responded, what makes them unique from the other 12 people who didn't respond yet?" Then it's going to try to find the people in your audience that are most likely to give you their lead information, so that it can optimize the process.
Meg Brunson: Facebook, many people do not [inaudible 00:19:41], but they want you to be successful. Yes, they want to take your money because they're a business and that's one way that they generate revenue. If you watched the Mark Zuckerberg in front of Congress, you learned that. But they want you to be successful because if you get what you want, you're going to spend more money with them.
Meg Brunson: They're not trying to trick you, and I love taking all your money so that you're broken, upset, and never come back. It's much more lucrative if you can tell Facebook what you want, then Facebook can deliver it and then you keep coming back for more. When you set that ad, you need to get those 50 conversions, which I'm coming back to how much money you should part with this.
Meg Brunson: In the beginning, you need to test it out if you've never run a Facebook ads. You may need to put $100 into it and see how much are your cost per leads. I could talk for days about tips to get that lower and best practices with targeting, and creative, and copy, and all that stuff. But just general big picture, figure out what your cost per lead is.
Meg Brunson: Then multiply it by 50, because you need to get 50 of those in order for your ad to optimize. Now worst case scenario, you need to get 50 within a week. But the sooner you can get those 50, the better. If you can afford to get 50 in a day, that should be your budget.
Kendra: Got it. Awesome. [crosstalk 00:21:07].
Christine H.: -front-load the ad a little bit. Front-load, spend more money up front to get it to optimize quickly. Then you can downsize as you figure out what your cost per lead is and what you actually want to spend, and the ad is optimized, right?
Meg Brunson: Sure. I think it's also important, you should be making money off these ads. If the ads are [inaudible 00:21:26] you're closing sales, you shouldn't have to downsize that. You're going to want [inaudible 00:21:32] because it's going to come back at you with a profit. But again, talking about having a little money to play with, if you're just starting out, you're going to be starting with something like lead generation.
Meg Brunson: Something that's more top funnel, if you will; awareness, building that knowledge trust factor. You're not going to go right in for the kill in month one.
Christine H.: I think that's so important for people to understand because they have everything ready. It's all shiny. Then you can get that on [inaudible 00:22:02] or whatever site, and then they're like, "Okay, now let's sell this baby," and I was like, "Wow."
Kendra: Yeah. I think you guys talked about it when I had been randomly dropping off through this call because of my shitty wifi connection. But I think with health and wellness, it can be a longer touch point. People take more time to warm up. We actually talked about this yesterday. Christine has a pretty quick conversion, probably because she's done a really good job of doing her media appearances and being featured in a lot of places.
Kendra: You've got street cred. But for me, people will creep me for a long time. Especially when I was in health and wellness, people would come out of the woodworks all the time that, "I've been following you for three years." I'm like, "[crosstalk 00:22:40], where did you come from?" But that's the thing with health and wellness, it's personal. [crosstalk 00:22:47].
Christine H.: Yeah. People should just be aware that this might take them a little bit longer.
Meg Brunson: Exactly. You need to have the money to be able to invest a month or two before starting to see that return. Again, there's ways to get those costs down, but it's not always as quick and easy. Even when you hire a professional, because marketing is still a game you've got to play and Facebook changes all the time. Having a professional on hand who feels 100% on that platform, it's easier for me to respond to these changes than other people who are trying to juggle 10 million things.
Meg Brunson: But there's still an element of fasting. With Facebook marketing, you should always be testing, always. The testing process is never over because marketing changes every day. Your competition, I hate that word, but-
Kendra: It is what is, where business is.
Meg Brunson: They're trying to change to be ... Everybody wants to be the best, and try unique and different approaches in order to capture the attention of your audience. So you should always, always, always be testing
Christine H.: I agree. That is a good point.
Kendra: It's so true for all of online business, right? I think, I talk to a lot of coaches who they think they can just build this perfect business behind the scenes and then just release it out into the internet world and be like, "There it is." I'm like, "No. That's not how you build a successful business. You have to try a shitload of things; like fail, fail, fail, fail, fail. That didn't work, try again, fail. Keep going, cry a little bit, but get up, keep going."
Kendra: That's what builds a successful business, and it's true for Facebook ads. It's true for everything, right?
Meg Brunson: Yeah. Exactly.
Christine H.: Let's talk a little bit about, you've had so many different clients. I think the budget, everyone has an idea that it's not just a little slot machine where you just throw something in once and you get the jackpot. It's just not how it works. Let's talk a little bit about the challenge in that health sector. I think it might be a little bit different than products or even business coaching.
Christine H.: What is the appearance of that? I just started little bit before that with sleep, you want me to get the band because as soon as it read sleep, the dirty little filthy means, it thinks it's ridiculous facts, and it's no. It's the [inaudible 00:25:15] we sleep is another word, it's just sleeping. But for me, I usually get, immediately the ad is not approved. Then if it is, I see it very, very low relevancy score.
Christine H.: It's like Facebook is putting on the brakes because it's careful. It's like, "Okay, we'll let her play, but we have to be very careful who's going to see it because we have to be afraid of who might complain." Me, it's just like I gave up and I want to get back in the game, listening to you with very softly, just constantly having some lead generation thing to figure it out.
Christine H.: But it's been a very frustrating journey for me. Tell me a little bit about the client experiences that you've had, things that you maybe figured out. Because I really want to have anyone who's out there listening right now to really not have that experience that I did.
Meg Brunson: Sure. I think the first key is having an understanding of why Facebook has those roles to be on [inaudible 00:26:14]. Facebook's number one concern is not with businesses, unfortunately for us as business owners. Their number one concern is with the user experience, so the people that are in your audience. That can be frustrating. But at the end of the day, it's actually [inaudible 00:26:32] for us because it keeps those audiences on the platform so that we can reach them.
Meg Brunson: They've done a lot of research, not only into Facebook ad history over the past however many years, but just marketing in general and to what people respond to, and what people don't respond to. I don't know if you've ... I'm sure everybody's been to a website. Where you scrolls to the bottom and there's images that are so gross, you know what I mean, the ads and the gross images or just like weird things?
Meg Brunson: They don't want that stuff on Facebook. [inaudible 00:27:07], you're [inaudible 00:27:08] and you have to scroll away, and it's-
Kendra: Like the porn shit that you get showed when you try to stream illegal television online, right?
Christine H.: That and hypothetical scenarios.
Kendra: I see all the time. Oh, my gosh.
Meg Brunson: Gosh, I was thinking of those weird [inaudible 00:27:24] videos, that's not my thing at all.
Kendra: Oh, some people would be really into that.
Christine H.: Yeah, no. I get it.
Meg Brunson: Anyhow, stuff like that, they don't want that stuff on the platform. They also don't want anything illegal on the platform or dangerous. You can't [inaudible 00:27:42], this goes into the health sector CBD. CBD is big right now. Anything that at all is derived from the marijuana plant, Facebook does not allow so it does not matter that it is not hallucinogenic. They don't care.
Christine H.: They don't care. It's stuff that-
Meg Brunson: It cannot be on there. I'll tell you that, if that's your health and wellness business, there are ways around it. There are ways to market, lead-ads are a great way. But it's nearly impossible to run Facebook ads for a CBD business. I personally will not take them done for you. Ad management client, I will work with them as a mentorship plan, but I have seen too many accounts get shut down because people just push, push, push the limits and then Facebook is like, "No. Done."
Meg Brunson: That's one area where there's not a lot of wiggle room, and I hate being the person that says no, but I could do probably a whole other episode just on some ways to get around that. Anyhow, so that's one example. But the other biggest things that health and wellness businesses get flagged for, are images. So the images that they choose. Facebook for example, does not want you to zoom in on any body parts.
Meg Brunson: I worked with a dentist and the dentist always had a picture. It always happened to be a blonde, white woman with big beautiful teeth and would zoom in on their big perfect smile, and Facebook would be like, "No, they don't want to show perfection, they don't want-
Christine H.: Got you. If I had a lady on a pillow, it would be like, "No, too much skin and nudity," and like, "I see everyone else half-naked all around, even on Facebook." But yeah, and ads, I find as soon as it detects with this algorithm that this skin show and an urge, that's like, "No."
Meg Brunson: I'll tell you too on the topic of images, you should always be testing more than one image, always. With that, one of my favorite stories is with that dentist. Because like I said, it was always blonde, perfect teeth and she said, "That's what people wanted to see." Well, she was in Miami, which has a huge Hispanic population. I was like, "You need some diversity in your ads."
Meg Brunson: Everybody should have diversity in their ads, but that's a whole other soapbox. You need diversity in your ads. I worked with her to come up with some other images to test, and one of the images we used, actually had nothing to do with teeth. It was three fingers squeezed together. I don't know if you're a girl scout, but it's the little girl scout promise.
Meg Brunson: They had faces drawn on the fingertips and then around the middle, it looks like they have little arms that are hugging them together. Had a solid background, and she's like, "But there's no teeth, what does it have to do with the dentist?" I was like, "We're going to put it in the copy." We used copy that said something like, "No matter what brings you into our office, you are going to leave happy."
Meg Brunson: It was like offering them a free visit or I can't remember what the offer was, now is a long time ago. But that ad outperformed everything and she was like, "But there's no teeth." It doesn't matter now. Did you get the leads, did they convert? Sometimes and everybody's seen the wacky ads, which is an image and you're like, "What does that have to do with the product?"
Meg Brunson: That is somebody just testing out a strategy of getting your attention with a weird image or a cute image, or a funny image, and then selling you something in the copy. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Test out multiple images, don't focus too much on one specific part of the body. Another thing you cannot do, is before and afters, which would be hard for health and wellness people.
Meg Brunson: You're selling like an acne cream and you want to show a face that's at the end on the face, it's clear or without makeup and with makeup, or before weight loss and after weight loss. These are things that you want to show, Facebook does not want that. It also goes off of health and wellness. Sometimes, I believe people can do a professional organizing gets lagged, because they have a messy room in a clean room.
Meg Brunson: That's not really what it's made for, but it's just kind of funny. So, no before and afters. Now if you really want to show a before and after, there are ways around it. You can use a carousel ad, you can show steps. So not just before and after, but like; step one, step two, step three, week one, week two, week three. You can put that in a video.
Meg Brunson: But you still want to be careful because the reason that the rule is there, isn't because they hate health and wellness businesses. It's not because they hate before after comparisons. It's because traditionally, users don't like it. I'm one of those people, I have a lot of health coaches and weight loss coaches, and stuff. I don't want to call out any one specific. They post the before and after pictures in it, it looks [crosstalk 00:32:59].
Christine H.: -different photo, it's been different lining. It's just [inaudible 00:33:03], I can get you seriously. I get it. They're not going to Instagram. You're supposed to getting lot and it just crosses me out, like-
Kendra: Right. I agree. I don't like before and after. I honestly, it pisses me off because it just highlights the body image of weight loss. It's just like a lot of people are striving, especially with women, they're striving to have this perfect body. It's airbrushed, it's not legit and really we should be more concerned about health and celebrating body types of all sorts. But again, that's another soapbox, you've [inaudible 00:33:32]. [crosstalk 00:33:32].
Meg Brunson: I would say that the other big [inaudible 00:33:39] a lot with health and wellness has to do with referring to a person's attributes in the copy. Now-
Christine H.: What [inaudible 00:33:46]? I had to really think about how to run a copy of that. God, it's like you only get a certain set of numbers of words that you can play with. It's like you have your original copy and then it's like, "Okay, actually this, this, this, this, this, this, this, you cannot use." "God, now what can I use?" I'd say. But walk us through [inaudible 00:34:06].
Kendra: Once you figure it out, it's not that hard. But I'd love to hear what you have to say, Meg.
Meg Brunson: Facebook doesn't want to be creepy. There's something creepy about signing on to Facebook. This has happened to me, where I scroll down and it's a shirt that's like Brunson power or something, and Brunson's my last name. I'm like, "How do they know my last name?" Well, it'll be like, and I know how they might be.
Meg Brunson: Or it'll be a shirt about Gemini, and I'm like, "How do they know it's a Gemini?. It's creepy," you know what I mean? They don't want you to be creepy, so they don't want you to post something that makes the user feel like they're being stalked, because that's not a positive experience.
Kendra: They do. But yes, I get it.
Meg Brunson: I'm not saying they don't sneak through, some don't sneak through. You also don't want your user to have that experience, either way they feel. I don't know, ashamed or nervous, or whatever, because you've called out the fact that they have a medical condition or that they [inaudible 00:35:17].
Kendra: Got it.
Meg Brunson: Be careful not to call out. What I typically do is, I look for the words, you and your in my copy. Because not always, but typically when you're using those words, you're within that sentence, you're referring to an attribute that they have. If you say something, like your weight, well, you're now referring to my weight. Whatever you say before or after that word is indicating whether you think I'm unhealthy, whether it's large or small, or whatever. That's an attribute.
Meg Brunson: You need to be saying that, and there's a couple of different ways you can do that. You could take the approach of, my clients typically. Like, "My clients typically benefit as I share." I hate being on the spot, it takes me forever, right?
Christine H.: Yeah. I know it's fine, but I think it's the idea that we have.
Meg Brunson: "My clients typically benefit from better self-esteem and more confidence after working with me in my coaching program," something like that. Now you're not saying, "Hey girl, you got too much weight." You're saying, "My clients typically feel there's transformation, and if that's a transformation that you long for, you should keep reading." I like going that way because it's also tooting your own horn a little bit.
Meg Brunson: You have clients; number one, if you're new. You want to let people know that you've got clients and that they're seeing these transformations. You could also do it generally, people typically, parents typically. New moms often say that [inaudible 00:37:01]. Now you're not saying that, this person often says that, new moms often say that. If that person is a new mom, she'll resonate with that.
Meg Brunson: Instead of saying you or your, trying to say it in more general terms. Also, focusing on what you're teaching, what that process is and that what the results will be. "You're going to lose 30 pounds," no. You're going to learn how to meal-plan effectively. You're going to learn how to build an exercise regimen into your already hectic schedule. You're going to learn these things.
Meg Brunson: Don't talk about what their results are going to be, because that's another area that crosses over from attributes into those claims. Unrealistic claims-
Christine H.: All right. Yeah.
Meg Brunson: But those are other red flags that we see a lot with health and wellness.
Kendra: Yeah. Another way I've gotten around it is that actually speaking about my own experience. By using I, instead of you and your. I've definitely done that talk in general terms, "Women often feel this way, blah, blah, blah." But I've also just spoken to my own experience in a lot, and that seems to get approved as well. But you're right. As you use your, or you or your, it's unapproved. It's like you just have to stay away from those words.
Meg Brunson: It's not those words that are the flag though, it's important to know that it's the context that those words are used in. Every once in a while, you can use them as long as you don't have the other words.
Christine H.: Yeah. Things that are typical health speak, so just to say.
Meg Brunson: Correct.
Kendra: I've had a few ads get disapproved, but when I look through them, I'm like, "No, I'm so sure I'm following all the guidelines," and you can actually request to review. Oftentimes when I do that, it'll get approved immediately. I think you requested a manual review or something like that to actually look at it and be like, "Oh no, you're good." Is that something that you can also recommend that people do if they're super sure?"
Meg Brunson: Definitely. I can give you the link directly to Facebook's policies, their ad policies. I know sometimes Facebook has so many links. But I'm happy to send that if you're going to put it in the show notes, and I would definitely review that. Facebook typically links to it and the disapproval box too, but I would go through.
Meg Brunson: Make sure you're really clear on that because they're only going to let you appeal it once and the more you appeal it, the more drama it is. But if you're positive, go ahead and do that appeal process. They typically get back to you in 24 to 48 hours. For that reason too, I'm going to say, I always try to plan my ads in advance. Try to schedule your ad two or three days in advance.
Meg Brunson: We're recording this on a Thursday. This would be a great day to schedule your ads so that you want running on Monday. Because if tomorrow they get denied, you can appeal them. Now the weekend can be a hit or miss, but hopefully they'll get approved by Monday and you're not out days. There's nothing more frustrating, and this has happened to me too.
Meg Brunson: Because I'm not a great planner for my own business. I'm so focused on my client's business and I'm like, "Oh shoot, I was supposed to get an ad up and running yesterday." I will get it up and running today, and I might have an issue with a disapproval that just needs to be appealed, because it happens even to the best of us. Then I'm two days behind them where I wanted my ads to be, and that can be stressful.
Meg Brunson: Try to plan ahead, so you'll be giving yourself much padding that the ads will get approved and then you don't have to worry about that.
Christine H.: I love that. Yeah, I think that-
Kendra: Just a question. When you schedule an ad, do they review it well, it's waiting to be scheduled? Okay, I just wanted to confirm [inaudible 00:40:52].
Meg Brunson: Yes. As soon as you hit publish, if you've got the ad scheduled to run in a week or whatever, you hit publish. It goes into the review process, it will get approved and then it'll say scheduled. It'll either say in review, it's still a review; scheduled, if it's been approved but it's waiting. Then it'll be approved [inaudible 00:41:13], running.
Christine H.: That's a really good tip. Yeah, I did. I already feel that. I love it. The Facebook ads is creepy in a way that you can do so many things that you can dive in more many ways. I know that it's different from Europe and the US because ours is always a bit stricter, so we don't have access to as many little tweaks.
Christine H.: Then at the same time, I've also had the more kind of criteria, you feed it, the higher your budget. Is that correct? The more you tell it to dial in and to exactly a certain person, the more you pay?
Meg Brunson: I don't think that, that would be correct. Because, it's going to depend upon how relevant your audience is. If you dial in, but you're dialing into the right people and they're responding, the costs that you're paying depends upon how relevant your ad is to your audience. If your audience is responding favorably and going through, and completing the action you want them to complete, then you're going to spend less money to get those actions.
Meg Brunson: It all comes back to the user experience. If people are responding to your ad, say positively, then Facebook is saying, "This is a good ad. We can serve people this ad and they're not going to get annoyed or frustrated, or upset." Favorable ways people can respond is, by number one, doing the thing. Whatever you want them to do, submitting a lead, reacting; so giving a thumbs up or a heart, or whatever, commenting, sharing.
Meg Brunson: All of that stuff is positive feedback. Now there's negative feedback. Negative feedback will be; you've got a little triangle and you hide the ad when you report that ad as offensive. It takes a little more effort to do that, but people do it. I've done it. It happens and Facebook will take note of that data, and then you're going to spend more money.
Meg Brunson: Because, Facebook is recognizing that your ad is ... It's banning you for some reason. That's the same reason. You might know, there used to be a rule, a text rule that you couldn't have more than 20% text on your images. Then last year, they got rid of that rule, but it was just, not really get rid of it because they just renamed it and reworked it. It's the same basic concept.
Meg Brunson: The more texts you have on the image, traditionally, the less reach you'll get, the higher your cost will be. However, that's really just a warning based on historical data. In real life application, I've had clients who images with text performed better than images without text, and we'd run those. It's one of those, you have to be testing it, you have to understand the rules, you have to know why they're there and then you have to keep that in mind.
Meg Brunson: Don't just put texts on an ad to make ... To put text down on the ad, has to be something that speaks to your user and improves their user experience, so that you'll get more reach. What we're talking about audiences a little bit, one thing I don't want to skip over either because it's so important. I usually talk about it first, but things take their own place sometimes, is the Facebook pixel.
Meg Brunson: I feel like that's one of the most often missed elements, especially from newbies. If you've been around the block a while, you've heard about the pixel and you probably have it installed. If you haven't heard about it, all it is, it's a little snippet of HTML coding that you copy from ads manager and you paste onto your website.
Meg Brunson: It sounds intimidating if you're not a developer, which most of us are not. I wasn't when I started, but it's not really that scary. Facebook has directions that walk you through it. If you're using Shopify, WordPress, Wix, literally just about any-
Christine H.: -videos, tutorials?
Meg Brunson: Yeah. I've got a ton of resources on that too, but Facebook has a ton. Whatever platform you use, [inaudible 00:45:23], and lets you track audiences or people who come to your website, so you can re-market to them later. It allows you to optimize your ads for conversions, so that's any action, any stuff or more action that happens on your website. Bringing them to page A, but wanting them to go to page B. That's a conversion, you could optimize your ads for that.
Meg Brunson: The third thing it does is, it unlocks data and analytics. You can use Facebook Analytics, just like Google Analytics. It's free, it's organic. You can also leverage it when you're running ads. I always caution people, one of the biggest complaints I get is that Facebook Analytics doesn't work. It's not the same as Google Analytics.
Meg Brunson: Therefore, it is wrong and it's not true. Is it okay, can I break down the difference?
Meg Brunson: Okay. Google Analytics tracks based on cookies, and most people are vaguely familiar with this process. It's like they leave a little trail of cookies wherever you go, so Google can see where were you right before you came to this website. It's last click attribution. Those are the big fancy words, and that's what Google's done. That's how they track everything, that's how they report things.
Meg Brunson: But Facebook is a little more fancy and they're tracking based on where you're signed on Facebook. You're signed down on your cell phone and your computer, maybe a desktop at work, maybe a laptop, maybe an iPad or who knows? Most people are signed to Facebook from multiple devices. Because of that, Facebook can track across all those devices and it can track up to 28 days.
Meg Brunson: Google can track the last click, what happened immediately the moment before you went somewhere. Facebook can track up to 28 days. The example I always use is that, if I'm in line at the grocery store, I've got my kids with me and we're checking out at Walmart or wherever. I see an ad for the newest converse shoes, which are my like. Yeah, I'm buying those converse shoes, I have so many.
Meg Brunson: They're the newest print, I need to have them. But I'm in line, it's almost time to pay and my kids are throwing candy bars, and so I just can't. I close out of the website, get my kids home and I forget about it for two days. That's mom life happens. Three days later, I sign in, I Google converse so I can get back to their website. I go find my shoes, I buy them.
Meg Brunson: When you go to check the analytics, Google's going to say, "Came from a Google search. She Googled converse and bought the shoes." But Facebook is going to say, "She [inaudible 00:47:57] certain ad, she clicked on that ad on her phone. Three days later, she bought the shoes on desktop." Now if you were just looking at one, you want to have the full story.
Meg Brunson: If you were just looking at Google, you'd say, "My Facebook ads aren't working." But if you're looking at both, you're going to say, "This doesn't match." But once you understand how they track, you can nearly piece it together to figure out the actual story and see that the Facebook ads are contributing to your success.
Christine H.: Yeah. It's just a different process of thinking. I think that's might be also what I see with my traction because 90% of my traffic is organic. In ways that I'm not running any ads, but they're coming from Google. But now I only know that they've searched for it, like most of them are. But I think it's interesting because I don't know if they've heard it on a podcast before, maybe or they read a blog post somewhere where it was mentioned.
Christine H.: This is a really, really interesting thing for me to do some research on, to see where are they coming from. Are they coming from Pinterest, are they coming from ... Then just out of sight, out of mind, and then they Googled it. This is really, really interesting.
Meg Brunson: Facebook Analytics is cool because you can set up, you can see who's connected to your Facebook page and who visits your website, to see how much traffic. How many of your Facebook page-fans are actually visiting your website, and how many of your website visitors are actually page-fans. It's a lot of interesting information. You can get lost in the data there, but that pixel is important.
Meg Brunson: Even if you're not running ads right now, you need to get that pixel installed so that you can elaborate it in those ways and the pixel retains data for six months. Here we are, when we're recording this, it's November. You're like, "I'm not ready yet. It's too late, it's almost Christmas, I'm still too new. Whatever your excuses are, and that's fine."
Meg Brunson: In May, you're six months down the road, you started making money or whatever. The situation has changed and you're like, "We should start advertising to get ready for next year holiday season." Well now you've got six months of data where you can create an audience. There's some people who visited your website, a lookalike audience.
Meg Brunson: You can really jump into advanced advertising quicker because you've done this first initial step of getting that pixel installed, to prepare you for when you're ready to dive deep.
Christine H.: That's an amazing tip. I think everyone should go in and then [inaudible 00:50:24] that. This has been times, my head is spinning. I can imagine that people who are just starting out, I was just like, "Okay, I need to digest all of this, and then I'm going to go and implement." I think this is amazing. You mentioned that you've had a couple of resources. Tell us a bit where people can find you.
Christine H.: Then if we have some of our star players, like people who joined our mastermind, for example, we still have one [inaudible 00:50:47]. Well, I wouldn't ask for the ad. But obviously, they would have a budget, so they're going to make a ton of money then, how can they find out about you?
Meg Brunson: well, the number one resource I'd love to direct people to is, I have a quiz. I've taken a lot of pride in this little quiz because I consider it to be quite fun. I am a huge music fan and we are traveling full time, and we do a lot of dance parties on the car and whatnot. I have a quiz that will not only tell you what you can do to up-level your Facebook marketing right now. But it will assign you a theme song based on where you are, so that you can start planning a little dance party to rock out to it.
Meg Brunson: You might end up getting some journey or some [Pintrest 00:51:26] Taylor Swift or Usher, depending upon what your score is. You'll get a fun song to dance to. Plus, you're going to find out exactly what you need to do based on your business right now. That link is at megbrunson.com/quiz. I think, did I give you a URL?
Christine H.: Yeah, you did. It's going to be [crosstalk 00:51:47].
Kendra: -show notes for everyone to-
Meg Brunson: Okay.
Kendra: -your marketing on.
Meg Brunson: I just realized that, I'm sorry. Go ahead and use that link. Then you can also just go to megbrunson.com to just find more information about me. I'm on Facebook, obviously, Instagram, not as much on YouTube but I'm trying. If you are interested in my travel stuff too, it's @familyroadventures on Instagram. Because I know a lot of people just aren't interested by that whole lifestyle.
Christine H.: Perfect. Awesome. So you work with clients in terms of being a Facebook ads manager?
Meg Brunson: Yeah. I have some clients that I run their ads for them, they're hands-off and I just do all the work. I've got some clients who are in a mentorship program, so they want to learn the ropes. I think it's really important that everybody has a basic understanding of the ads before they outsource it. I've seen too many people working at Facebook especially, who are spending big bucks on agencies who do not have their best interests in mind.
Meg Brunson: I love for people to have at least that basic information. Even if we're not going to work together, I can just give you the information to make sure you're not getting screwed over. Then I have some clients who are taking, I have a course and I've got a variety of things for do-it-yourself. Who maybe aren't quite at that level of outsourcing or burning out or one-on-one mentor.
Christine H.: Well, definitely everyone should check that out because I know we have a lot of viewers or listeners, whatever, who are really interested in running Facebook ads and we don't want you to get screwed. Go, follow Meg and get her info so that you can [inaudible 00:53:28] up for success. Meg, we really, really appreciate you coming out with us today. That was really, really enlightening.
Christine H.: I think our audience members really appreciate it as we do. To everyone listening, thank you so much. We will see you again in one week for our business bomb series, where we'll give you a super juicy tip and then your head explodes because it's that fucking juicy. All right guys, take care and we'll talk to you in a week. Bye.
In health and wellness, the average email industry standard open rate is about 20%. What that means is you need to be really on it with your email marketing and you need to be absolutely sure that you are going to hit to as close to 20% as possible. Otherwise your efforts are kind of wasted. So if you've noticed that your email open rates are below 20% then you definitely want to tune in to this video, because I'm going to teach you four types of subject lines that will make your subscribers want to open your emails.
1) Curiosity: You want to intrigue subscribers to make them want to see what's in the rest of the email.
2) Personalized subject line: People really love when things feel personal or feel like they are written just for them.
3) Story tease: People really love stories and a story subject line is an enticing way to start things off.
4) Authority subject line: If you have accomplished something, don't be afraid to share this with your subscribers.
Watch the video to learn more about the do's & don'ts of email subject lines, including examples of each type of subject line. If you found the video helpful, let me know by liking it, you can subscribe to my channel, or make sure to share it with all your business besties.
Linkedin isn’t just for finding a job and post your resume. As Scott Aaron shares in our newest episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast, Linkedin is a place to build human connection. Whaaat? How can you build human connection over the computer?
As we have shouted from the rooftops in many episodes – you have to engage with people on any of the platforms you are using. You can’t expect to post an Instagram picture and get clients. You can’t write one article and expect to make 6 figures from it. The same goes from Linkedin – if you know how to use it (which Scott provides some key tips in this episode on how to do that) you can build a network of your ideal client and grow your network of badass health coaches.
If you’re intimiated by Linkedin, like Christine was (before this episode!) - fear not. Scott has some simple yet impact tips to create an amazing profile and connect with likeminded folks. In this episode we discuss:
- 3 things every health coach needs to do in their business (and how Linkedin helps with that)
- Linkedin content and the magic formula (hello Linkedin video!)
- 4 key tips to succeeding on LinkedIn
- statistics on Linkedin in comparison to Facebook & Instagram
- the dreadful Linkedin automated message & how to make it more authentic
As a best selling author and speaker, Scott is passionate about helping fellow entrepreneurs achieve success while building their own network organically and without complicated and costly marketing tactics. His program has helped thousands of entrepreneurs and individuals experience explosive growth following his program Linkedin Accelerator. People-focused and result driven, Scott's strategic approach to teaching others how to create wealth online and organic traffic is the game changer when it comes to competing in a saturated digital world.
Connect with Scott Aaron:
Get Scott’s freebie, How to Optimize Your Linkedin Profile: https://networkacademy.kartra.com/page/OptimizeLinkedin
Connect with us on social:
Christine H.: Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this brand new episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. We are so excited to be talking to you, and today, there's three of us. So, we have the as always adorable, super sexy and fun, and super smart, Kendra Perry, who's here like whoa! Check out YouTube, it was her winning pose, for the win.
Christine H.: Then we have an amazing guest today who is going to talk about a topic that I'm just nuts about. So we're going to talk more about that in a second. Suspense, if you're on watching video, which you should because we have [inaudible 00:00:37]. And then you've got humble me, myself, Christine Hansen, and we are going to really blow your mind this week as we always do.
Christine H.: But before we're going to start off, we want to say a super, super huge thank you, because we've got a review and you know when that happens, our aura lights up with love and fabulous glowness. So, Kendra, what have we been told this week and this is like just a massage for my soul really. So-
Kendra Perry: Yeah, this is a massage for my ego for sure. So we have a five-star review from Chasing Vitality from the UK. So thank you to all our international listeners. The title is Great Business Podcast. "Love these two, down to earth, actionable great content. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. It's helping me loads."
Kendra Perry: So we're so glad it is helping you Chasing Vitality. And now, we give you a virtual hug for the five-star review.
Christine H.: Kendra is a huge hugger. I'm like, "Yay, this is great!"
Kendra Perry: I know. I hug everyone.
Christine H.: I know. And I was just like, "Whoa!" Maybe that's my European thing. I don't know.
Kendra Perry: Maybe.
Christine H.: But anyway, let me introduce our guest today, and you should switch on your audio. We don't have a lot of men on our podcast so please do tune in.
Kendra Perry: It's exciting.
Christine H.: Very exciting. So as a best-selling author and speaker, Scott is passionate about how big fellow entrepreneurs achieve success, which we always like obviously. Why building their own network organically ... Oh, like that. Does that mean free? We have to check out, and without complicated and costly marketing tactics. I do like the sound of that too.
Christine H.: His program has helped thousands of entrepreneurs and individual experienced explosive growth following his program LinkedIn Accelerator. I have to say I'm getting a bit turn on with this. People-focused and result-driven, Scott's strategic approach to teaching others how to create wealth online and organic traffic is the game changer when it comes to competing in this saturated digital world.
Christine H.: Whoa, promising much? Okay. We're going to milk you like there's no tomorrow. All right, so Kendra and I are both like linked in with one of the topics that we really want you to talk about, so Kendra has her own YouTube and Instagram with knowledge and I dab a little bit in everything. I did really dived into LinkedIn a year ago, and I have to say that it was very lucrative in terms of being very focused knowing what you want and I have to say maybe the most surprising aspect for me that was people are actually friendly.
Christine H.: I don't know, I was so intimidated by LinkedIn. For me, LinkedIn was just kind of a room of suits and assholes really that I didn't really want to have anything to do with, and getting to know the people and just diving in there a little bit, people were really, really open and friendly and helpful and yeah, I also find it's a little bit clicky.
Christine H.: So there's lots of things that I want to dive into, but Scott, first of all, tell us a little bit how you actually got into this social media platform. Was it by accident? Was it very strategic? Tell us a little bit about this.
Scott Aaron: So, it was ... Well, first of all, thank you guys for having me on here. It's an honor and a pleasure. So going back to what you said earlier, yes, you can milk me for whatever you want and we can go as deep as you need to.
Christine H.: Let's not take this out of context, people.
Scott Aaron: Yes, I might. I was doing a keynote a couple of weeks ago, and I said something along the lines of that. Someone said, that's what she said. And I completely set myself up for that. Anyway, enough with the Michael Scott quotes. So everything that has happened with my speaking, with my best-selling book and everything with LinkedIn was completely by accident, but obviously on purpose.
Scott Aaron: So before we kind of dive into that, people need to know exactly how I got to where I am today and it actually transpired from something that happened to me 22 years ago. And I talked about these brain tattoo moments that we have in our life and I'm going to give you the very short version of this because I do 60-minute keynotes on just my story.
Scott Aaron: But basically, the long and the short of it is when I was 18 years old, I'm a fourth generation entrepreneur. My father owned a couple of businesses and he had left his one business to work for someone else and that ended up being one of the worst decisions that he ever made because he got actually caught up in a $9.5 million dollar insurance fraud case which landed him in federal prison for two and a half years.
Scott Aaron: And this was my introduction to entrepreneurship because in the process of him getting sentenced and going away to prison, he had bought a failing fitness club in downtown Philadelphia that was turned over to me when I was 19. So I was-
Kendra Perry: Great gift.
Scott Aaron: Yes, here. Here it is. So that was my introduction into entrepreneurship but I was always a people person and this is back in 1998 before really the internet was what it is today. There was no social media so everything was grass-roots connecting with other people. And I became a certified sports nutritionist, personal trainer, group fitness instructor.
Scott Aaron: So everything that I did in the fitness industry was revolved around helping people and getting people results. So the one gym turned into two gyms when my father came back and we ended up selling both of them in 2003 for a million dollars. So I became a millionaire at 24. In 2004, we opened up our third and final gym which ended up getting put into my name because my parents' credit was bottomed out, so everything had to get financed by me, which I didn't really know what that meant at 25 years old.
Scott Aaron: But two and a half years later, in around 2007, 2008, I found myself in $1.5 million of liability debt. So I had another hole to crawl out of. I grew a very successful personal training practice and then between 2008 and 2014, I was married and divorced twice. And so that was a big change for me because I really had to learn emotional maturity, but I was beating myself up a lot. But it also left me with one of the greatest gifts which is my now seven-year-old beautiful little boy Taylor. So becoming a dad was one of the greatest accomplishments that I've ever accomplished.
Scott Aaron: In 2013, a year before my second divorce, I found network marketing and I'm sure some of the listeners on here know about it. And I've always been psychologically unemployable from day one so I never had [crosstalk 00:07:49] I've never worked for anyone. So I didn't think this was a pyramid or a Ponzi but I'm always networking. I'm always making recommendations. I was sending people to vitamin shop and GNC and all of these places and I said, "Fuck this." I'm like, "Instead of sending them there, I could be the one supplying them what they need."
Scott Aaron: So I grew this business within two years to match my income as a personal trainer. And after I exited my second marriage, I had to reinvent myself again but in 2015, I made a pivot. I basically found out two things. Number one, I found out through selling a property that I owned in downtown Philadelphia that my house that I sold was being used as collateral for the gym's equipment.
Scott Aaron: So when I went to go sell the property, there was about $35,000 worth of equity. Instead of getting 35K, I got $837 because the balance of the lease would take off by my house. So then I had to have a conversation with my father. I sat him in my office and I said, "Listen, this partnership is not working anymore. I'm going to be taking over this gym myself. You're going to have to go find somewhere else to train," and I can tell you that that was probably the best decision for both of us. And if he was on here with me, he would say the same thing because it allowed us to get back to father and son again.
Scott Aaron: We were never meant to be business partners. We were always meant to be father and son. He's an amazing father, an amazing grandfather and me going on this road myself was the best decision. There was one last thing that happened and it kind of curtailed into LinkedIn. So I was looking through some paperwork because now I was suspicious, and I found one document that changed everything. And this was the document for the lease of my gym.
Scott Aaron: And it said, "Guarantor," and it had my signature above it. And for those that don't know what that means, if you're the guarantor of the lease and that business goes under, if you violate the lease, any money that is owed was going to get turned over to me personally, which at that point was around $450,000. And I was at my wit's end. That was kind of like the cherry on top.
Scott Aaron: So, around the same time, I saw social media changed. I saw Facebook and Instagram going down these rabbit holes and people now had to pay a shit ton of money for Facebook ads. All I saw was sports bras and yoga pants on Instagram. Everybody was just selling their stuff and their bodies and pretty selfies and all of these stuff that I'm like, "This is removing me from my core foundation which is connecting with human beings."
Scott Aaron: So I jumped on to LinkedIn, had no clue how to use it. I had a profile but that was about it, but I remember something that my first mentor said to me. And she said to me, she goes, "You have to wake up each day, look yourself in the mirror and you need to ask yourself, how am I going to connect with me today?"
Scott Aaron: And it clicked. And I said, "That's it. If I'm going to be on a business platform, I need to look for the business mirror image of myself," which at that time was a personal trainer, sports nutritionist and gym owner. So I started building this network of people that were just like me and I started setting up phone call after phone call and I was closing people into my businesses and I was making money. And I said, "Shit, I think I had something here."
Scott Aaron: So I reached out to a friend of mine who was also an entrepreneur and I said, "Joey, listen. You got to get on LinkedIn." And I said, "Here, I want you to do these few things," that I knew at that time because it was still new to me four years ago, and I said, "Text me in a week and let me know what happens." A week later, he texted me. He said, "Call me." I did, I said, "What's up?" And he goes, "Dude, whatever you're doing, it really works." He goes, "I have 14 appointments booked this week."
Scott Aaron: And the cure all to feeling stuck is being in action and for any entrepreneur, any business owner, if there's nothing written down in your appointment book, it's the scariest place that you can be and most people that I was speaking to didn't have enough people talking to.
Scott Aaron: So anyway, I went on a podcast about four years ago, and it was a live dial podcast. So it was a live show where people could call in but it was also recorded. And I was going over the statistics of LinkedIn. I always tell people facts are friendly. It was what my mom says to me until to this day. And I was just reporting the facts.
Christine H.: I'm a huge denial person, so but yeah like [inaudible 00:12:27].
Scott Aaron: That's okay. I hopped off this call. I hopped onto Facebook, and I had nine inboxes from people wanting to hire me. For what I didn't know, I didn't have anything that they could pay for. But they wanted to learn how to use LinkedIn, so I got into action. I created some videos, created a website and I started my coaching practice on what worked for me now teaching others.
Scott Aaron: So at the same time, I was sitting in my attorney's office and I was going over what I needed to do at this gym because I was losing about $3,000 a month. I had now a coaching practice that was on the rise. I had the successful network marketing business. I was just at my wit's end and I had this monkey sitting on my back and it was this gym. It was my father's dream, not mine.
Scott Aaron: So I was sitting with him and he said, "Listen, you got two choices. You can continue to have your two businesses, fund your business that is failing or you can file for personal bankruptcy." And I was like, "Okay." And I remember sitting there and I remember thinking to myself, I wasn't feeling and thinking my life is over. I was thinking, "Holy shit, my life is about to begin. This is my opportunity to wipe the slate clean and really start doing what I wanted to do."
Scott Aaron: So he said, "On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being slam dunk, you got to do this. 0 being do not do this, keep going." He goes, "You're a 9.5." So on July 1st of 2016 just about three and a half years ago, I filed for personal bankruptcy. On July 31st, I closed my gym. I wrote a handwritten letter to my members, stuck it on the door, turned off the lights, locked the door and I never came back."
Scott Aaron: So on August 1st of 2016, I shared with people that that is when I was truly reborn and I'm living life on my own terms now and my life has never been the same. And it's because I never thought that it was going to be easy because those that take the easy road live a hard life but those that take the hard road will live an easy life.
Scott Aaron: And I remember someone asking me, they said, "What is your super power?" And I said, "It's resiliency." No matter what shit has been thrown my way, I have always figured out a way, not around it, through it so I can learn from that and become even better on the other side. And what I realized with LinkedIn, it was the perfect place for me because I'm all about human connection. I'm all about connecting with other people because I don't care what opt-ins you have. I don't care what lead magnets or funnels that you have or email sequence. Here's the deal.
Scott Aaron: There's one aspect of life and business that you can't automate and that's human connection, and that's what I'm best at. So if you're looking to connect with people and sell them, you have to build that know, like and trust factor first before you even get the right to try to offer someone a product or a service that you have for them. And that's what I'm best at and that's what I teach now building that network, building that relationship and that trust and the connection between two people where you can solve a problem or a need that they are in need or wanting.
Scott Aaron: And it's a very simple system. It's the best platform honestly. If people are still blind to it, if you are still trying to convince yourself that Facebook and Instagram are going to turn back the hands of time and work like the way that they did in 2013 to 2015, you're taking crazy pills. It's time to get with the times, not reinvent yourself but add something to your arsenal of information and tools.
Scott Aaron: You have to be a general contractor of social media. You have to have multiple tools in your tool belt and if LinkedIn is not one of them, you are leaving hundreds of thousands of dollars on the table that you could be collecting.
Kendra Perry: Oh, my good. I love this so much, because you're like preaching to the choir. I mean I talked about this all the time. I think like it's this connection. People are like, "Well, I need to run ads to my course." And I'm like, "Well, that's not going to sell. People need to get to know you first." I mean, I talked about this so much and I love that this conversation is going here because I didn't expect it.
Kendra Perry: I mean, it's true. Facebook is barely a platform you can connect with people on unless you're doing groups. Instagram, you can still do it on it, but you need to be doing stories. You need to be doing lives. You need to be connecting that way, but I haven't really thought about LinkedIn as a connection platform although I actually do use it to connect. So can you tell us a little bit more about like why, like convince health coaches because our audience, they're solopreneurs, they're health coaches, why should they get on LinkedIn?
Christine H.: Especially I think because it's so intimidating, I guess.
Kendra Perry: It is intimidating.
Christine H.: Because I think a lot of people ... It's not actually once you're there. But I think a lot of people perceived it as a corporate platform, and it's the way it markets itself.
Scott Aaron: Let me say this. It's only intimidating because you don't know how to use it.
Kendra Perry: I agree. I totally agree.
Scott Aaron: So, Christine, you can ask anyone, Facebook was intimidating to all of us when we first started using it. Instagram was intimidating to all of us when we first started using it but I tell people all the time what was once uncomfortable becomes comfortable when you start utilizing it.
Scott Aaron: So it's only an unknown and it's only uncomfortable for people that just aren't taking the time to get to know it. Now, Kendra, back to your original question, I don't try to convince anyone. So I don't convince anyone they should use LinkedIn. I know they should be using LinkedIn. So this is the know, it's not the convince and here's why.
Scott Aaron: There's three things that every single coach, I don't care if you're a health coach, a business coach, whatever it is. There are three things that you need to look at. Number one, demographics. You need to know where your people are hanging out, the age of the people that you're looking to connect with. Number two, the size of the networking that you can grow. Gary Vaynerchuk says it best. He says, "Your network is a direct correlation to your net worth."
Kendra Perry: I love it.
Scott Aaron: So if you have a small network, you have small net worth. If you have a large network, you have a large net worth. And number three is the money mindset of the people that are hanging on that platform. People with broke thoughts will not invest in something that you offer.
Scott Aaron: So when you combine those three aspects and you look at the demographics of Instagram and Facebook which are the same because Zuckerberg owns them both and you look at the demographics of LinkedIn which is owned by Microsoft, which is a technology and cybersecurity company, it's clear as day.
Scott Aaron: So the most recent statistics have showed that the average age combined with Facebook and Instagram is 18 to 29 years old. So it's more of the millennials. LinkedIn is 30 to 55 years old. So depending upon where your target market is, if it's busy moms, corporate people, wherever it is, you're going to know where they're hanging out now.
Scott Aaron: Now the size of the network is really key. Facebook you're only allowed 5,000 "friends" and basically the follow feature kicks in or you start a business page and basically you're paying for people I don't believe paying for friends or paying for anything. I don't pay for connection. People are out there. You should connect with them on an organic basis.
Scott Aaron: Instagram, even though you can grow a ridiculous network has the highest rate of fake accounts to real accounts across social media. Actually, there was a recent study that was done that Instagram is closing close to 2 million accounts every 30 days that are fake accounts. So that's also something that people need to know. On LinkedIn, you're allowed 30,000 organic, unpaid, free connections.
Scott Aaron: In three and a half years, I grew my network from 500 to nearly 27,000 in three and a half years organically. So when you have the ability to curate and create a network that is the mirror image of you, the ideal customer, the ideal client, the ideal avatar, you don't have to sell to them because now you're building relationship and rapport with people that you have commonalities with, so natural progression is the know, like and trust factor takes place. You'll be closing more sales.
Scott Aaron: But also, it's money mindset. The average income of those that spend time on Facebook and Instagram is $30,000 a year or less, which means they're just getting by. The average income of someone on LinkedIn is $100,000 a year or more. So that's also something very, very important to take into consideration, three and a half times more. But here's the other thing, I have a global coaching practice. I have clients in over 12 countries, but I wasn't able to grow my coaching practice to where it is now if it wasn't for LinkedIn because it's the only social media platform that you can search and connect for your ideal customer or client by city, by state, by country, by province.
Scott Aaron: Anywhere in the world, if there's something that's ideal for you. You go into the search bar and you can search and connect with those individuals. So when I talk about a game-changing platform that you don't have to spend any dollar off, I don't pay for premium. I don't pay for sales navigator. I don't pay for recruiter. I don't pay for human connection. I create human connection and that's what everyone can be doing on LinkedIn.
Kendra Perry: Very cool. And so I love that. You've definitely given me a few things to think about. And I'm just wondering if we can go back to kind of the basics here's for those of our listeners who are totally unfamiliar with LinkedIn or what that actually looks like, what types of content are people posting there, is there a fee, like is there direct messaging, can you go live. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
Scott Aaron: I'll handle those one at a time because I have an answer for all of those. And I-
Kendra Perry: I expected that.
Scott Aaron: And I like questions because questions lead to answers and that's something big on LinkedIn. You always, no matter what you're doing on there. So to work backwards as far as your content question, LinkedIn Live is in the beta test phase right now. You can apply to be on it. I filled out an application already, so I'm on the wait list. And basically, they're allowing certain people to beta test it, so it hasn't gone global yet.
Scott Aaron: Now, there is LinkedIn video. You can record yourself on a Zoom, upload a video to the platform up to 10 minutes long. Or you can just use the mobile device. I always do. The great thing about LinkedIn is that there is a repurposing factor. So basically, I use my phone to record my LinkedIn videos, which automatically saves to my camera roll, which I then have that video message, which I can upload onto my IGTV or I can also upload onto my regular Instagram feed as a video, which is great because now I'm working smarter, not harder.
Scott Aaron: The idea with LinkedIn is to produce one piece of content a day. There is no story feature. You don't have to post 18,000 times a day like Facebook. It's one piece of content a day and it comes in three forms, either a post, a video or an article. And all can be done from the PC. Posts and videos are also accessible from the mobile device. You cannot do articles from the mobile device but the content that people are looking for on LinkedIn right now are how-to's, tips, motivation and inspiration. No selling, no offering, no product pictures or before and after's or whatever shit you're selling. You have to sell less and you have to connect more.
Scott Aaron: Now, the magic formula for a good piece of content on LinkedIn, three things. Number one, four to six lines of your own content that relate to what you're either speaking on in a video or posting about in a quote title. Number two is hashtags. Much like Instagram, LinkedIn now has a hashtag feature that people can follow hashtags and you are actually notified if you get enough engagement, you will have a trending hashtag on LinkedIn. I have a trending post at least once a week at this point and that allows people to find you easier much like you would use on Instagram.
Scott Aaron: And the third part is a call to action. So you want to hear from your audience. You don't just want to just put some shit out there and say, "I hope they engage." Ask them to engage. What are your thoughts on this video? What are your thoughts on this content? What are your thoughts on how fear paralyzes you? Leave your comment below. So, engage with them. You want to hear from them. You want to provide information, get feedback. Use that feedback for more content to come later. So, one piece of content, that's the basic thing.
Scott Aaron: Now, as far as LinkedIn goes, there's four key aspects to it. Number one is your profile. So, Microsoft embedded search engine optimization on your profile. If you want to become more visible, you have to have your profile filled out from top to bottom. If someone wants to go to my website, this is not a plug, scottaaron.net, I had a free infographic tab that you can click on and basically, it shows you the layout of how to optimize your profile so you are more seen and I've had clients actually change their profile and people now use this search engine on LinkedIn like they would Google or like they would Yahoo. They're searching for business coaches.
Scott Aaron: So if you don't have business coach listed on your profile, how the hell were people supposed to find you? So number one is making sure that your profile is filled out from top to bottom.
Scott Aaron: Number two is actually searching and connecting for your avatar. So you need to define who that person is. What industry are they a part of? What is their job title? How much money do they make? What is their profession? So searching and connecting for those individuals.
Scott Aaron: Now, to go a little bit deeper with that when you send connections to LinkedIn, LinkedIn will ask you, "Do you want to send a note? People are more likely to accept if you add a note to this connection." It's bullshit. There was a third party that did a study and they sent a hundred connections with a message and without. The connection rate was exactly the same. Work smarter, not harder to send the connections.
Scott Aaron: Now, the third piece is messaging. And this is where people get really lost. I mean, Christine, you said you spent some time on there. Kendra, I don't know if you have yet but if you start, people send you these shitty, wonkolog messages-
Kendra Perry: Oh, I've got them.
Scott Aaron: Literally, I showed my fiancé the other day. I said, "Nancy, you got to look at this message." And I was scrolling and it literally took me three minutes to scroll through the whole message. This guy sent me 17 paragraphs of verbal vomit that I was not going to read.
Kendra Perry: I've got very interesting marriage proposals. I could be a princess in Saudi Arabia by now.
Scott Aaron: Listen, everything is possible. You never know. I break it down like this. There's three key formulas to a very, very good messaging. It's all about genuine authenticity and not selling. So number one, state the person's name. "Hey, Kendra, great to connect with you." That's it, that's number one.
Scott Aaron: Number two, in the body of the message, state why you're connecting with them without asking for shit, without trying to sell them anything. "I saw that we have a shared background in health and wellness, would love to hear more about it and share a little bit about what I do." There's your body.
Scott Aaron: Then you finish with a CTA, a call to action. So I'm all about call to actions because questions lead to answers. You have to A-S-K to G-E-T. You have to ask to get. So, I would then say, "Do you have any time this week or next week to hop on a call to learn how we can best support each other here on LinkedIn?" State their name, reason for reaching out and then a call to action.
Scott Aaron: And then fourth aspect is just what I went over, content. When you curate the right network, so if you know who your target market is, you start connecting with those individuals and then you start posting on a consistent basis once a day the three ways that I already mentioned, now, you're speaking directly to that network. It is waiting for your content and they are just gobbling it up.
Scott Aaron: So everything that I put out on LinkedIn is speaking to the end user in mind. The mistake that a lot of people make is they post shit that they want to post. But when you start thinking about what does my end user want to know. If I was my end user, what would I respond to most? What would I engage with? What would I would want to give feedback on?
Scott Aaron: So if you post with the end user in mind, you will have the greatest amount of organic engagement you could ever imagine and right now, as you guys are listening to this podcast or watching this podcast, LinkedIn is going through a Facebook 2012 moment. Right now, engagement has never been higher and organic reach is the highest on any social media platform that is out there today. And if you follow those four core principles without doing anything with me, you will start to see results.
Kendra Perry: All right, we need to get the podcast on LinkedIn, Christine.
Christine H.: Yeah. I also want to say it's all true but don't underestimate the work though because I find just posting is not enough and that's something where I lost track at some point. You have to engage with people too, like it's really ... I find people are very open to help. It's very easy to ask for help and I had super success in speaking and getting speaking gigs and all kinds of connection really quick. People don't bullshit around. They don't have time, it's like [inaudible 00:31:50].
Christine H.: But I also find that you can easily get lost because there's also lot of "you need to connect with these people", "you have to show that you engage" and all that types. So calculate that in because it's really ... Yes, you can take but it's really also that giving thing. And that's where I go a little bit, not pissed off, but it's just like a lost attention because I found at the time and I think it has changed again. That was a year ago. You had all these pods going nuts.
Christine H.: And I think LinkedIn has cracked down on them when they realized it but you have basically people in a group conversation and they weren't giving the links and you have to go to their links and share and like and comment so that engagement would go up even if a lot of it was crap. I didn't even want to engage with it. So that was something that just I didn't want to do.
Christine H.: And then the other thing is that I really found that it's a little bit like high school after all. You have a couple of really huge badass influences, maybe the one kind of wants to be their friend in a way. So for me, it was really unsexy at some point where I was like, I know that it works and I know that if I have the goal, I know how to get there, not like just too directly.
Christine H.: But at the same time, it was exhausting to me at some point and so I just like, "I'm still on there. I'm posting regular content, videos with caps. You should always add caps because people don't watch it with sound because they are not supposed to when they are in the office or wherever, so always add caps.
Christine H.: But that was going on like a year ago. So honestly, I just dropped the ball. I know I just like I still post on there and I'm still on there, have a couple of really good connections there. But I'm wondering on what your thought of them is, because I know for a long time it was like, okay, per day you post content. You have to comment on, five. You have to like on four, blah-blah-blah-blah-blah. And I was just like, "I don't have time for this," but at the same time, it's well spent. It's definitely better spent than on other platforms. But give me a little bit of your intake on how things have evolved maybe since then.
Scott Aaron: I mean the pods are on every single social media platform. I think that's bullshit. I think that's forced engagement. I don't believe in forced engagement. I believe in organic engagement. And I will like and comment on someone else's stuff if I like it. I'm not going to do things because I have to. I'm going to engage with someone's content because I'm like, "Shit, that's a really good post." And I'll write great posts.
Scott Aaron: So, everything I do is organic. There's two things that I want to say. Number one, and Christine, are you in the UK?
Christine H.: No, I'm in Luxembourg, Europe.
Scott Aaron: Okay. So, Kendra may understand this but I'll explain it again. You have to treat LinkedIn like a 401(k). So, here in the States, a 401(k) is a retirement fund or an IRA. So, it's a retirement vehicle. What most people get lost in is having LinkedIn like a lottery ticket. I tell people if you want to do something easy, go down to the local gas station or minimart and get a lottery scratch-off ticket because you have a better shot that way.
Scott Aaron: LinkedIn is a retirement vehicle. It's compounded interest over time. You have to make daily deposits to create a compounded interest of income that eventually after enough time goes on that you create the wealth that you truly deserve. It's about doing things without expecting anything in return, leaving people better but being uber-consistent because consistency creates the compounded effect that creates everything that you want in your life. That's number one.
Scott Aaron: Number two, if there's two books that I can recommend every single human being on this planet to read, number one is a book called Go for No. it's a book by Andrea Waltz and Richard Fenton. Andrea has become a friend of mine. I read this book four years ago and it blew my mind. And the basic principle of the book is yes is the destination but no is how you get there and that's all I'm going to say about it. I can do a whole podcast just on that book. It's 70 pages. It will change your life.
Scott Aaron: Number two is the foundational money mindset book, the first money mindset book ever written in 1910 and it's called The Science of Getting Rich. This book was written in 1910 by Wallace D. Wattles. And this book spurred all the other books that you guys are reading: You're a Badass at Making Money, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, The Secret, The Strangest Secret, Think and Grow Rich.
Scott Aaron: Every single one of those money mindset books is off of the teachings of The Science of Getting Rich and it teaches you this: When you live in a world of collaboration and creation and instead of a world of competition and comparison, you can create anything you want in life.
Scott Aaron: And if you harness those two principles and you harness the fact that this is a retirement vehicle, this is compounded interest, it's making those daily, weekly, monthly, yearly deposits and not getting attached to the outcome, doing things without an expectation or results, you will create and live the best life possible.
Christine H.: Okay. Kendra and I were just like, "Sure."
Kendra Perry: Like, "Oh, yes."
Christine H.: Very, very true. All right, so I think this has been really good in terms of we know why LinkedIn has to be on your list no matter what kind of business you have. We talked about the content. We talked about how to approach people. We talked about engagement. So, as I saw it in your bio, you are actually teaching this in more detail to your clients. So walk us quickly through how people can get in touch with you, why they should get in touch with you so that when they are like, "Okay, I really need to get my shit together and this needs to be in my arsenal," how do they do that?
Scott Aaron: Great question and thank you for the opportunity to share this. There's no have-to's but if people are unhappy with the amount of conversations they're not having, and if you don't have enough ... I don't care what kind of coaching practice you have whether it's wellness or business, leads are your lifeline. People are your lifeline. So if you're going to depend on the market that you have now and you're going to depend on your friends and family to grow your business, you're just wrong.
Scott Aaron: And the fact is, is that if you're not consistently growing your network organically, you're not going to have a business in two to three years and I said this on one of my podcast episode. It's called network marketing made simple. If people go all in on Facebook and Instagram and you don't utilize other resources not just an email list or LinkedIn. Instagram and Facebook will eventually bankrupt your business because it's not going to produce the amount of connections required and conversations required to succeed.
Scott Aaron: So people can go to my website, www.scottaaron.net. That's where you can order my bestselling book, the LinkedIn book for network marketing. You can also listen to my podcast, Network Marketing Made Simple. Or you can connect with me on LinkedIn, it's scottaaron. Instagram, it's @scottaaronlinkedin. And on Facebook, it's also Scott Aaron. I do Facebook Lives two to three times a week. I do three trainings on all social media because I believe you have to give before you can get. It's just the law of reciprocation.
Scott Aaron: I try to give as much as I can for free before even people walk through the door to want to do more with me. So I have a ton of free resources, the infographic, everything else, my podcast. Just digest it all. You're going to resonate with something.
Christine H.: Perfect.
Kendra Perry: I love that. It's such a powerful message that goes beyond just LinkedIn. And I feel like I'm like beating a dead horse with this message because I've talked to a lot of health coaches the past couple of weeks because we're launching a year-long business coaching program. And it's just crazy like what these people have been told to do. They've spent like six months building out a course and their strategy is to run Facebook ads to it but they don't have a social media following.
Scott Aaron: [crosstalk 00:44:42] Who are you selling?
Kendra Perry: Like it hurts me.
Scott Aaron: People pay all this shit and then they have no one to sell it to. I had friends of mine that were building ... They were doing a launch for a big online mastermind and I'm like, "How did things go?" And they're like, "No one bought." You have to have-
Christine H.: We've all been there but it's painful because these are people who've been in business for a couple of years and it's exactly the scenario that you said before. People are unhappy about the nonexistent amount of leads that you're having because they've been working their asses off. They've been reinvesting. They are believing. They are doing gratitude work, whatever, polishing their crystals which I do too. I love this. But at the same time, it's like why is it not working and it's because there's essence that's just missing. It's just like-
Kendra Perry: It's inauthentic or people, they're not connecting. They're knocking themselves.
Christine H.: It's outdated. It's not working.
Kendra Perry: It's crazy.
Scott Aaron: They're selling too much and they're connecting too little. And when you change nothing, nothing changes. It's plain and simple. You guys know what the definition of insanity is, which is doing the same thing each and every day expecting something different to happen. If you're not going to change something, you can't expect anything to change in your life.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I mean I've built my whole business on connection and like I don't have a big following but it doesn't matter because the people who invest in you, they actually align with your message. They align with your mission and they will buy everything that you put out there. I've had people moved who were in my health coaching membership when I was doing health coaching. Now they did my course. They're in my membership and they wanted to do business coaching with me and now they're in our mastermind. They're just like, "What are you selling? I want it," like they don't even care.
Christine H.: Yeah, it's very true.
Scott Aaron: It's the know, like and trust. When people know you, they like you and they trust you and they will buy anything that you put out there because they've already seen the result from something before. You have to take the time to really nurture those relationships. Make them very meaningful because here's the other thing, people don't realize this why connection is so important because those raving fans, those raving customers, those raving clients, do you know whose name is going to come first out of that person's mouth? Your words.
Scott Aaron: You have these people organically telling other people about you. I can't tell you how many people reached out to me because of the lives that I have impacted with my coaching. So now, I have people coming to me saying, "I want to work with you. A friend of so and so told me to reach out to you. I want the results that they had." So now, you've built that trust and rapport with those people, they're going to start doing the work for you because they want to, because you've changed their life.
Kendra Perry: Yes, love it, so, so good. Well, thank you so much, Scott. That was a very cool conversation and I actually feel a bit more inspired about LinkedIn. I've been on LinkedIn for a little while. I have a strategy. I tried to reach out via direct message and like have ... I literally just tried to start a conversation.
Kendra Perry: But it's funny, you can sniff out people's intentions from a mile away and when I started conversation with someone, I can instantly tell, "Oh, they're about to try to sell me something," and I fucking hate it. And because I'm on there, I just want to get to know them. I just want to have a conversation, get to know them and see where it goes. But it's like people come on too fast. They come on too strong and there's a lot of spammy people on LinkedIn so it's too bad but don't be a spammer, be a human connection builder.
Scott Aaron: Yes, 100%. Two things that I can leave you with is that your failures always open the doors to your successes. The more often you fail, the more often you're going to learn how to succeed, so you have to have that very high failure rate to get the high success rate. And the last thing is that there's millions of ways of how to succeed and there's only one way to fail and that's to quit.
Scott Aaron: So for anyone that's listening to this and you're thinking of quitting, basically, that's the only way you're going to fail. So no matter how hard it gets, no matter how many ups and downs, bumps in the roads, potholes, speed bumps that you have to go over, as long as you grow through it and learn from it, you will eventually succeed. It's just when the time is right for you.
Kendra Perry: Love it. It touches my soul.
Christine H.: All right, party people. Well, we're always so happy that you tuned in. and if you learned something from this and I'm pretty sure you did, then please go over to iTunes and leave us a five-star review, showing us lots of love, we would adore it. And Scott would adore it. He would be really happy too.
Christine H.: And don't forget to check out whatever is happening in our news, so we're launching our mastermind at this time when you're listening to this live. But even if it's later, to keep in touch with us, we always have goodness coming your way. And I think that's it for this week, so we'll talk to you next week with a Biz Bomb episode. Bye.
If you feel like you've been burning out or feeling overwhelmed with private clients, this actually might be the perfect time to consider launching a group program. In my new video, I'm going to teach you how to start your awesome group coaching program.
So personally, I worked with clients for about three years before I really started to burn out. I had so many clients at the time, I was having a hard time keeping track of them. I was working really hard to get them, and I knew I wanted to make more money and have more financial freedom, but I didn't have any more time in my schedule. I started to charge higher ticket prices for my coaching services, but as a result, I started helping less people and that really went against my mission, which was to really help as many people with their health as possible. So I wanted to figure out a way to help more people without actually burning out and compromising my self care, while simultaneously making more money.
Once I launched my first group coaching program, everything changed. I was able to make more money, I was able to help more people and I was able to have more time for myself. And in this video, I'm going to give you the step by step of how you can actually make that happen.
Step 1: Outcome
You need to determine what is the specific outcome or the specific result that your group members are going to get. Don't make a group program that claims to solve multiple problems.
Step 2: Content
You need to come up with the content of your program. And the best way to do this is to determine what does everyone actually need to do? What are the steps that everyone needs to take to get from A to B, from sick to that outcome that you are promising with your program?
Step 3: Delivery
When it comes to delivery, it's very important to take your group members on a journey. You want to take them through a logical sequence of steps that helps lead them on the path from where they have their problem that leads them eventually to that ultimate outcome or result.
Step 4: Support
What type of supporting materials are you going to include in your group program?
Step 5: Experience
You want to still make sure that, even though they're on this very serious journey to improving their health, that they still have a positive experience.
Step 6: Journey
After their group program, what happens next? You want to make sure you have something available to them because there's a good chance that some of your members are not going to actually be done with working with you.
Step 7: Update
After you've run of your group program, you want to update your program so that it's even better for the next members. This means future members are going to have an enhanced experience and you can raise the price of your program.
A great way to teach your first group program is through a Facebook group. The reason I love this is because Facebook groups are really great for engagement. So you can go live into your group and teach the training. You can engage in real time with each of your members, see what their questions are, see what their challenges are, get to know them a little bit better. And then the replay is available immediately after you've gone live. So if you teach another way, let's say you use a zoom meeting, or some type of other online meeting platform, you are going to have to download, upload and render the recording.
Watch the video where I go into further detail of each step!
So you have delivered your awesome lead magnet and now you have this person on your email list. But is that the right time to actually pitch them and offer your program or service? People take time to actually warm up to get to know and trust you. They need time to actually decide if they like you. That is exactly what an email nurture sequence is for.
In my new video, I'm going to teach you step by step how to create a high quality email nurture sequence that turns those email subscribers into paying clients.
Before I had a lead magnet, I had a really hard time turning my email subscribers into clients. It made me think that maybe email marketing didn't really work. I quickly learned that when it comes to health, people don't trust you right away. They need to warm up to you and you need to help them get there. Once they have warmed up, once they feel like they know you, they trust you, they like you, they're going to be way more likely to want to invest in whatever it is that you have to offer.
Once I started implementing my email nurture sequence, I started getting 10 to 15 discovery calls from potential clients, which was pretty overwhelming. It was a lot, so I actually had to switch to an application only practice in order to not lose my mind. So it was awesome.
An email nurture sequence is a series of emails that people receive after they opt in for your free offer. It helps them get to know you and your story, and it helps you know their method so that eventually you can pitch your program or your service. In my experience, I find six emails to work the best, but of course everyone's going to be a little bit different so you want to test that and see which length or amount of emails is going to work best for your business.
Let's break down what each of those six emails should actually include.
Email number one: your lead magnet
Email two and three: tell your story
Email number four: the purpose is to aggravate the problem and surprise them
Email number five: testimonial
Email number six: your pitch
I love pitching in email six because I've shared so much of myself with them already. I've shared my personal story, my struggles, I've related it back to them. I've shared my testimonial of how I can help someone just like them. This is a great time where they might actually be really interested in learning more and maybe even working with you.
If you don't sell them at email six in the email nurture sequence, that's totally okay. Some people do need a little bit more time to actually warm up and that's no problem because you're going to be sending an email to them every single week with valuable information, warming them up even more so that eventually they are ready to invest in what you have to offer.
If you want more details and examples for each of the emails in the nurture sequence, be sure to watch my video!
We are stepping in the unknown, confusing (to some) and taboo territory on today’s 360 Health Biz Podcast! We have Alison Gordon, CEO of 48North Cannabis Corp. to talk about, you guessed it – cannabis!
In America, cannabis is federally illegal but at state level (in some states) medical cannabis is legal. In Canada however, cannabis became legal across the nation in October of 2018 and edibles became legal in October 2019. However, there's a lot of regulatory work that still needs to be done in Canada and the US.
Depending on your interest and involvement in cannabis, there are areas that are black and white, gray, and frankly…green.
In this episode we discuss:
- legalization and licensing of cannabis in Canada vs America
- what is vaping and is it legal?
- marketing around public opinion
- how to work around marketing cannabis restrictions
- organic cannabis and regulation around quality
- illegal dispensaries vs legal licensed dispensaries
- medical conditions that have seen positive impact from cannabis use
- public perception: why alcohol is accepted by cannabis isn’t
We learned a lot from Alison in today’s episode and we hope you do too!
Alison Gordon - CEO 48North Cannabis Corp. Alison is a veteran of the Canadian cannabis industry, bringing unique experience and relationships to her role as co-chief executive officer of 48North. A skilled marketer, she is celebrated for her ability to shift public opinion and consumer behaviour and has been named one of Canada’s Top 10 Marketers by Marketing magazine. As co-founder of Rethink Breast Cancer, Alison is credited with growing a new generation of young breast cancer supporters, compelled by her ground-breaking communication and pharmaceutical expertise in the health-care realm. Today, Alison is applying her skills to 48North’s business plan in this new era of the cannabis industry. She is on the board of directors for the Cannabis Canada Council.
Connect with Allison on Instagram: @cannabisculturist
Connect with us on social:
Kendra: Hey guys, what's up? Kendra here, welcome to the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I am super excited for today's show because we're talking about kind of a sexy topic. We're talking about marijuana, we're talking about cannabis. It's a very current topic on social media, because we did just recently legalize it. So, we're going to be talking with an awesome guest today. And unfortunately, Christine's not with me today cause she's off gallivanting the planet as usual. I actually don't even know where she is today. But, she will be back, joining me for our next recording.
So today, it's just me and our awesome guests. We are good. Like I said, talking about cannabis, which was actually something I'm very excited to talk about because you guys follow me on social media, you've probably heard me talk about this. I live in a very small town in British Columbia that was basically built on the marijuana industry and up until recently, our whole economy ran on it.
So myself included, I'm comfortable saying this now because it is cool. But, I used to be very much involved in that industry, and a lot of the people I know in this town are very much involved in it. And now that it's been legalized, a lot of my friends are adjusting to kind of like the new landscape of what is coming.
So, I am sitting here with Alison Gordon. She is the CEO of 48North Cannabis Corporation. She is a veteran of the Canadian cannabis industry, bringing unique experience and relationships to her role as co-Chief Executive Officer for 48North. She is a skilled marketer. She is celebrated for her ability to shift public opinion and consumer behavior, and has been named one of Canada's top 10 marketers by Marketing Magazine. That's pretty impressive. And, she is also the co founder of the Rethink Breast Cancer. Alison is a credited with growing a new generation of young breast cancer supporters, is held by her groundbreaking communication and pharmaceutical expertise in the healthcare realm.
Today Alison is applying her skills to 48North's business plan in this new era of the cannabis industry. She's on the board of directors with the Cannabis Canada Council.
Welcome Alison. Thank you so much for being here.
Alison Gordon: Thank you for having me.
Kendra: So, that is a pretty impressive bio. I would love to know first and foremost, like how did you end up in this industry? Like how did this all get started for you?
Alison Gordon: Well, it started in high school, when I started smoking weed and never really stopped. But in terms of as a career, and you know, within the regulated legal industry, I started thinking about this industry, well let's put it this way. In 2008, I had a close family member that was diagnosed with stage four ovarian cancer. And her doctor recommended that she try medical cannabis. And I was like, what? Canada has a medical cannabis program? This is back in 2008, don't forget. So, a long time ago. And I had no idea. And I got very excited, and you know, looking back was obviously quite naive and thinking about these ideas that I had for what I thought this industry could become. I was also really amazed at seeing an older woman who had never smoked weed or used it before, using it daily to help with anxiety, pain, sleep, all the things that come with end-of-life care.
And so I was like, okay, this is shifting. Clearly, there's a shift here. People are going to recognize the benefits of medicinal cannabis. And then for me, I started to think and believe that ultimately we would move towards legalization, which has happened. So, I really started looking at the industry, both Canada and the U.S. back then. At the time I was co-running Rethink Breast Cancer, which I had confounded with my partner, MJ. Was very happy there. We were growing this international organization, working with young women with breast cancer. But I just kept having this nibbling feeling that I wanted to get involved in the cannabis industry. And in 2013 I decided, you know what, Rethink is running amazingly. It can survive without me, as anything can. And I transitioned onto the board and started working in Canada, in the industry.
Kendra: Very, very cool. And so, I think like, for those of you, for those of you who are American, or from outside of Canada, Canada did just recently legalize it. And I know in the U.S., I'm not super familiar with the laws there, but I know in certain states it's more or less like may be decriminalized or legalized to some degree.
And you know, in your bio you mentioned like kind of shifting public opinion and consumer behavior. Can you speak a little bit to that? Like why do you think it's important to shift public opinion? Like what is the current public opinion and like why is that so important to you?
Alison Gordon: Well, let me first deal with what you were saying. So in the U.S., it is federally illegal, still at the federal level. So at the state level of certain states, it is legal for adult use, medical, these things. But the federal obviously trumps the state. And in the Obama administration, you know, there was the Cole memo, which allowed the States the right to govern in this way. With Trump, it's still unclear. So you know, Canada was in a very unique position and still is to be legalized at the federal level.
So, you know, coming back to your question of shifting public opinion. Well you know, this is the biggest part of our job on so many levels. Because what I always say is that the prohibition of cannabis is probably some of the best marketing that ever existed. It should be on the cover of every marketing textbook.
Alison Gordon: As the amount of misinformation that exists out there in the world amongst educated, smart people as well as you know, people, all sorts of people. But, it is just staggering and trying to break that misinformation seems to be challenging.
Alison Gordon: I think we've made tons of headway. The fact that Canada has actually legalized shows that, you know, the government understood that this is no longer something that the mass of Canadian voters would have issue with. Cause otherwise they wouldn't do it.
Alison Gordon: And you know, there's all sorts of different stats in Canada and the U.S. about public opinion. And the opinion, in terms of legalizing, is most definitely significantly higher than those that don't believe it should be legal in both Canada and the U.S. But I think what people don't realize is so much of that misinformation, yes they might believe it's legal, but the view of the type of people who use cannabis or whether they want it in their community, it's still strong. And that's challenging because that impacts our, you know, government representatives who pass the regulatory environments. And I think you know, a lot of the information we get from those, you know, MPs and others still believe that cannabis is a drug, and it's a problem, and it's all of these things. So for us to fully move into a legal market and to get consumers to understand the value of having a legal market, there's a lot of regulatory work that needs to be done in Canada and especially in the U.S.
Kendra: Yeah. And I mean something I've noticed cause like you know, I'm from Nelson, British Columbia. If you're familiar with that tiny little town.
Alison Gordon: Yes of course, very familiar.
Kendra: Very much like a town built on the marijuana industry. And you know, it's just interesting cause the dispensary's, you know, before legalization, you can pretty much get anything. It was kind of in this gray zone. But now that we've moved into legalization, like you actually can't get as much. Like you can't get the edibles. Like you can only get like...
Alison Gordon: ...at the legal dispensary's.
Kendra: Yeah, totally.
Alison Gordon: Yeah. Well those are not yet legal in Canada.
Alison Gordon: So to date, like ending very soon, cause it's coming on October 17th of this year. But, what's been legal in Canada for the past year is flower and one very limited extract. So not edibles, not vapes, not topicals. So anyone who sees those products in the Canadian market today, and likely over the next two months, those are not legal. And so with the big crisis that's been going on, you know, I want to make sure that everybody understands that vapes are not legal in Canada right this minute. It will be in the coming weeks and months. But you, you know, if you don't buy them from a legal entity, then you actually don't know what's in them.
Kendra: And can you just speak to the vape crisis. And like what is vaping? Cause I'm a little bit confused about what it actually is. And I think some of our listeners are maybe unfamiliar with it.
Alison Gordon: Well, I mean vaping is a, I want to say technology. It's probably not the right word. But it's, it's a very particular, well it's not a mechanism, but delivery method.
Alison Gordon: That uses a certain form of oils and heat to turn, whether it's flower or oil into something that you, a vapor essentially you can inhale into your lungs.
Alison Gordon: You know, this is, vaping been around for a very long time. And in terms of things like the volcano, or you know, different forms of it. But what happened, I think, and I don't know the exact history, but with the proliferation of these E-cigarettes people then took that, or I don't know which came first. But you know, that we have sort of that version on the cannabis side, where it's essentially you can buy disposable vapes. So meaning, you'll use it, and these vapes are made out of oil.
Alison Gordon: Right. So they're cannabis oil, sometimes mixed with other oils. Right? So it really depends on what you buy. And that's why you need to buy from a legal market.
Because for example, we acquired a company in the U.S. called Quill. They make vapes. Those vapes are 100% cannabis oil.
Alison Gordon: There's no additives, no fillers. Often people, especially in the black market, are cutting that with oil, other oils.
Alison Gordon: And so you don't know what's in those oils. There could be flavors or this vitamin E acetate that people are talking about, that they think might be what's causing the deaths, they don't know.
So you know, essentially when you're vaping, generally, unless you're taking flower and putting it in a vaporizer, which would be a much larger apparatus. If it's just one of these pens as we call them, it's an oil. And it being heated, and you're inhaling it into your lungs. Obviously there isn't a ton of research in general, even on the E-cigarette side as to the effect of vaporizing versus smoking a cigarette.
Alison Gordon: And then on the cannabis side, you know, same, same. But you know, again, it's been thought to be a better alternative to smoking. But I guess that's TBD.
Kendra: Exactly. Yeah. And that's really interesting. And I think like within the health and wellness space for all of our coaches who are listening, I think a lot of them, I've seen all just a lot of discussion in general in the communities that people are interested in like, you know, using these types of products personally, or maybe with their clients. But there seems to be a big concern about quality. And personally, I've seen indoor grow shows in my community where I see a lot of chemicals being used for example. And you know within the health and wellness space, like people are always really concerned about quality, and organic, and the fact that things aren't used with chemicals if we are going to be using it for a health application. Can you speak to that a little bit?
Alison Gordon: Yeah, well I mean 48North, we are organic in two out of three of our facilities, our large outdoor farms. So the bulk of our product coming online will be organic. So I completely agree with you. That said, the legal market in Canada, again, if you buy from a legal dispensary or from online from your government, you know, online entity or whichever province you're in, if you're in Canada, or in the U.S. from a legal entity, these things are all heavily lab tested.
Alison Gordon: And the government in Canada has heavy, heavy regulations against using any form of pesticides. So even though we are 48North have gone through the process of being certified organic, I can say with a lot of faith that the legal market, you're not looking at the same level like any form of pesticides. Like for example, in Canada, you can't spray the plant past a certain point with anything, including water.
And that's the government's way of just ensuring nothing passes through. And the truth is we have to lab test so heavily that, you know..., It's just like anything I say like you, you go into restaurants that have, in Ontario at least the green thing on the window that they've been inspected and everything's fine. You don't go buy an egg sandwich off someone sitting on the street with a plate. Like you just don't know what's in these things.
So, this is the move that needs to happen towards the legal market. And it's not to say many people in the black market might be doing organic, or they might be doing all the right things. But how are you as the consumer supposed to know?
Alison Gordon: And so that's what I think you know, is where people need to get to from a health and wellness perspective, is recognizing there's value in lab testing. Whether or not you may pay a couple of cents more, 50 cents more, whatever, or less. I mean the legal market might be less in some instances. The upside of that is it's regulated.
Alison Gordon: That's what we ask of our products and do.
Kendra: Yes. No, I absolutely agree. And would you say that's, like that would be similarly true of the U.S.? Like people purchasing in the U.S., if they buy from like a government body, like does that exist in the U.S. like can they try...
Alison Gordon: Well, it's not about buying from a government body. It's about buying from illegal licensed dispensary. And in the U.S., each state will have different requirements around lab testing. California has quite stringent requirements. So, you're quite certain in California that, you know, what you're buying from a legal market is being tested for all sorts of heavy metals, and same with Canada. So yes, it's about buying from a legal market. I think what confuses consumers is when they see stores on the street that are selling weed, they think it's legal because how does that exist if it's not legal? But, that's part of the confusion that's existing, both in Canada and the U.S., as you transitioned to this legal market.
Kendra: So yeah, and I do find that confusing. So, what you're saying is just because there is someone who has a shop open on this, on like the downtown street, it doesn't mean that it's regulated or that it's technically legal?
Alison Gordon: No, and I don't have an answer for you as to how that sort of store would get shut down. I can speculate that the police themselves are confused as to what's going on. That nobody likes to take time and resources in the court systems for things that won't result in jail time. I don't really know how or why. I think they do get shut down and they pop back up. Especially online is where this proliferating.
So people go online, they can get it delivered to their door. They assume it's legal. So you know, I think it's, it behooves people to just actually understand it. Asking them are you legal? Like they may not get the truthful answer. I think it's depending where you are understanding. Like for example in Ontario online, the only place that's legal is the OCS.CA and then we only have about 25 stores in all of Ontario that are legal right now. They are giving out another 42 licenses. But there's some potential delay there. But yeah, I mean it's, it's, they have a symbol on their windows that show that they are actually a licensed retailer.
Kendra: Okay. Okay. That's good to know. Yeah. Cause I've been a little bit confused about that, and I have seen that happen in Nelson. Like places kind of like shut down and like come back up. And then places like now they can't sell this, but you can get it from their online store. And I think just everything being so new, there's a lot of confusion and hopefully that will, you know, over time have a...
Alison Gordon: Look, this isn't like a positive thing. But the easy way to know is like does the packaging look like this? Which is our pre-roll pack, which is the best that we can do in light of having to have these massive warning. And again not to say the black market wouldn't copy this as well. That's the challenge. Right?
Alison Gordon: But I just, if I was in the black market, why would I make it look like this? I would look more appealing.
Kendra: It would be a lot of effort. Like 10 points for effort, that's for sure. Okay. Yeah.
Alison Gordon: And no doubt it happens.
Kendra: Exactly. And I would love to speak a little bit more about like the whole health connection. Why medical marijuana and cannabis is you know, something that we should as health practitioners like consider for certain conditions. And obviously I think you've seen benefit with people who have breast cancer. Like what else can you speak to regarding that?
Alison Gordon: Well I mean I think there's a ton, a ton, a ton of content now on the web about this from people much more knowledgeable than me. But you know just having been in the industry for as long as I have, and speaking with patients, and people like, there's a ton of new actual clinical studies that are coming out. Which is great cause it's really just been anecdotal to date. So obviously with the advent of all these CBD products in the U.S. There's been a lot of interest in CBD. The FDA has approved a drug called Epidiolex made of CBD for epilepsy. So I think CBD is well known as an anti-inflammatory, anti-seizure that can really help people. I have friends with epilepsy that have gotten off all pharmaceuticals just by using CBD. Now of course, once again, not all CBD is created equal, although it is a molecule.
But you know, again, it's doing a little bit of research and looking into the full spectrum. So, it is likely the cannabis plant has over a hundred cannabinoids. CBD is one of them, THC is another. THC is the cannabinoid that when heated gets you high. But there is a hundred cannabinoids and various things in the plant. So you know, it's trying out these full spectrum products that have that entourage effect.
That's something I am biased towards. There is no clinical research to say that's any more effective than using a product like that CBD isolate. But I think intuitively it just makes sense. You know, pain management, glaucoma, MS, Parkinson's, I mean like it does all start to sound like really? But it truly, there is, you know, it's been obviously well-documented that humans have an endocannabinoid system. The cannabis plant and the receptors connect to that.
And I think we're just starting to scratch the surface of understanding how cannabis can help. I mean social anxiety, anxiety's, there are people that I know, and I've read about that you know had extreme forms of anxiety and PTSD, never leaving the house, et cetera, et cetera. That now are able to have a more functioning existence thanks to using cannabis. Some might be okay with a very small amount of CBD. Others, it requires some THC, and you have the problem, or the challenge is, you know, I used to say it's a plant based medicine so of course there's trial and error. But I hate to say that because with pharmaceuticals I think we've all been brainwashed to believe that there's a consistent use, meaning the effect is going to be the effect. But I think the reality is if you have friends who have taken antidepressants, they often need to try three before there's one that works.
So it's no difference, it's just you. You might need a very minimal dose of just CBD to be able to deal, like have your anxiety under control. Others may need more. So there is a trial and error right now, which is part of the problem that the state ranking perception, is that doctors don't have that same ease with which to prescribe and go 10 milligrams. But they were getting there, and we're getting there quickly. And so I think, you know, there's nothing to be scared of. You can try cannabis and see if it works for you. If you are worried about getting highs and start with the CBD product and see where you go.
Kendra: Yeah, yeah I love that. And, I especially love the application to pain management because I know a lot of people like that's how their addiction start. You know, they get into an accident or they have, you know, some sort of chronic issue and they end up addicted to pain pills.
Alison Gordon: Yeah. I mean there is a lot of research to show cannabis as a, obviously an amazing alternative to opioids. But also a successful treatment for opioid addiction.
Alison Gordon: And I think that, that's really important as well.
Kendra: Yeah, that's amazing. And I remember, like many years ago I had ACL reconstructive surgery, and they prescribed me Percocet, which made me feel disgusting. And my friend came over and gave me Phoenix Tears, which yeah. Are you familiar with those? I wasn't sure if that was the Nelson thing or like that's a legitimate, yeah.
Alison Gordon: Yeah, we know of it.
Kendra: And I remember using those and I mean like yeah, they made me super high and like kind of I couldn't really communicate well with people. But I, I wasn't, I was able to not use the Percocet. And like it killed all my pain and that was really amazing cause I just, I've never been really interested in taking pharmaceuticals. So I, yeah.
Alison Gordon: And again, like it's hard for you in that situation. Maybe you didn't have to be that high. Like your friends giving Phoenix Tears. Obviously that's not, you know, regulated. So you don't exactly know what's in it. Even though I'm sure we trust your friend, and it's not about what's in it from an ingredient standpoint. It's like dosing is quite complex, as you could imagine. So, as legal companies who have to lab test, when we say this is the dose, that's the dose.
Alison Gordon: Also, obviously you don't have someone guiding you through that process.
Alison Gordon: Like a physician, which you likely could do now, because we have many more physicians who are educated in this that could, you know, say let's start you on a one-to-one and let's work up. Your friend just kind of brought you Phoenix Tears.
Kendra: Yeah. And though they were so hot here for a while, like everyone was like, Phoenix Tears were like the hottest thing around town. And then this was back when it was illegal. And then I remember like they got so hot that people had to like ditch them and bury them in the forest, because the cops are getting super involved. But I do remember that and I really did appreciate the painkilling. And at the time I liked smoking weeds, so I was fine with being that high. These days, I would probably want to have someone guide me through the experience and not get so high so I could actually function.
Alison Gordon: Yeah. And, and again, like this is a very common saying is you start low, and goes slow. Right? So it's like, it's the same thing. It's no different than Percocet or Oxycontin. I mean, it's totally different, I want to be clear about that. But what I need to say is the misperception that with a pharmaceutical, like that's what you're going to do. I mean, you might've taken that Percocet and maybe you only really needed half of it, or ideally don't take it at all.
But you understand the point that I'm making, which is we lead such blind faith in the pharmaceutical industry and it's so fascinating to me to like, I wish I could fast forward 20 years. Because so much research is being done on cannabis and it's just going to be such a different world. And I just wonder if all of this will be, you know, misconceptions will be wiped out and people will be as skeptical about pharma as they are this poor little plant.
Kendra: Yeah, I mean it is really true. I've always found that interesting. Like how much trust people will have in like the pharmaceutical community, whereas like those types of drugs kill people all the time. Whereas like there's like street drugs and all these other things that like, you know, maybe magic mushrooms, and like marijuana, and stuff when people are just like, "Oh, that's illegal drugs." Like you're a druggie if you do that. Meanwhile, like most people are taking pharmaceuticals.
Alison Gordon: Well I think it's like the tides are definitely changing. Obviously the opioid crisis, especially in the U.S., but also in Canada is like getting front page attention. Which is amazing. But you know, at the same time, I think it's this balance. And my hope of course, is the reason people have faith in pharmaceuticals, whether it's right for them to or not, is it comes through physicians and physicians play a certain role in our society. But also, you know, where they're manufactured, that they're regulated, that things done clinical studies. So all of that gives the public the perception of safety. I'm not going to sit here and start trashing clinical studies, but I think people understand there's lots of ways to collect data. But at the same time, if you know, you got to play the game. And so the goal for our industry, of course, is to get this, you know, double blind studies done so we can prove to the powers that be that this is effective medicine for the things we're talking about.
And you know, no one has ever in the history of, you know, released in, documented to died from cannabis use.
Alison Gordon: So it's, you know, it's toll on your body is nothing and it's, I'm not going to say that, you know, people don't have an emotional addiction, because I don't know the answer whether that is. But there is no physical addiction that's been shown. And also I have many, many friends who were heavy cannabis users that might travel somewhere for two weeks that they can't get it, there is no physical withdrawal symptoms.
Alison Gordon: I mean I think this word just has to spread amongst healthcare community and understand that, you know, a lot of what you hear that it's a gateway drug, it's just total bullshit.
Kendra: I think it is bullshit. I think alcohol is more of a gateway drug. Like I've always made that comparison. Like alcohol is so accepted. But you know, when I used to drink all the time, like I do all kinds of things I regretted, and like end up on like weird people's couches, and be like wake up in the morning and be like, "I can't fucking believe I did that." But like that never happened with weed. Like the worst thing that would happen is maybe I would like eat too many chips or something like that.
Alison Gordon: Yeah. I mean alcohol is really, to me it's unbelievable that people will say, "Oh my God, do you like, do your kids see your weed or whatever?" And quite frankly, like I also suffer the stigma myself. Meaning, I'm in this role, I'm CEO of this company, and I'm still like cleaning up the weed, you know, with my teenagers around, if they are around. But at the same time, I don't even think twice if they come down in the morning, and I've had people over and have drinking. I mean I don't drink myself, not, I never really did. And so, it's just an easy one to wipe out.
But you know, first of all, alcohol isn't just about the bad decisions you make, but for sure it's there. But there's a ton of research that shows the effects of alcohol has on your body and your brain. They're making links to it, to Alzheimer's right now obviously liver diseases, all sorts of other things. But interesting to me is when you saw states like Colorado legalize cannabis, then you saw things like the alcohol sales went down about 30% in Colorado at that time. And then domestic violence went down by 30%. So we know, I think it's just, and this is where going back to 2014. So this information's out there. It's just like I said, you know, prohibition with like a stranglehold on our brains, and it's just people don't want to hear it and believe it.
Kendra: Yeah, I totally agree. And like that must make it challenging for like the marketing side of things. Cause you're a big marketer, top 10 marketers in Canada. Very cool. And like we love talking about marketing on this podcast, and like online business, and that sort of thing. So like how, like what is your sort of strategy towards like marketing, this sort of thing? Cause, obviously you have to shift public opinion, but like where do you go after that?
Alison Gordon: Well, the number one challenge beyond the challenge of shifting opinion is that in Canada we are not allowed [inaudible 00:29:02] as cannabis company anywhere. So, a variety of different strategies.
So one thing we did was create an online platform called Latitude where we share stories about how when women use cannabis for their health and wellness in their day-to-day lives, and it's just average women. And it's, you know, some of them are a mother and daughter, or they may be a yoga teacher, or it may be, like it's all over the map. And the idea there is, when you read these stories, so I'm looking around to see if I have one of the books in the office, in my office, but I don't. But when you read it, and it sells at Indigo, and it's a beautiful book or sort of magazine thing, you, you know, there's, I think a subconscious level where it's like this person's just like me. This isn't a scary person. This person has a good job. They're not just on their couch. But also understanding their rituals around it and how they use it and when they use it. And what it's done for them.
We also have hosted events latitude. Because again, we cannot do that as 48North because we sell cannabis and as part of that, we are not allowed to sponsor events, are not allowed to do all these things.
Alison Gordon: So Latitude, we've had a few events. The last one was on sex and pleasure and a lot of the women that came and spoke if, and the idea there is, it's like we have speakers and they might read poetry, they might tell a story. It's however they want to express themselves. And a lot of them were talking about, you know, really negative sexual experiences, whether it was like all the way of rape to just, you know, those are uncomfortable positions.
Alison Gordon: Like you end up a being somewhere you don't really want to be, and feel in control of. And each one spoke about how cannabis brought them back into their body, how they were able to use it to kill the trauma. And I get, I think, you know, we sell out those events very quickly. So you have a large audience hearing these stories and again normalizing it. And it's all you can do, it takes time and all you can do. You know, I continue to do things like this podcast with you, in the hopes it keeps people keep going, "Oh my God she's kind of like me. She runs a public org, she runs a public company. You know, she must not be out of her mind."
Kendra: And so, you cut out a little bit earlier, so I'm not sure if you already said this, but just like is there any regulations or rules around like if. Cause I have a lot of friends in this community who have like gotten, I guess I don't the right word, they've been given permission...
Alison Gordon: Licenses.
Kendra: Or they've been able to start there like their zone, their warehouse or whatever it is.
Alison Gordon: Licensed, they have been licensed.
Kendra: They've been licensed.
Alison Gordon: And I don't think that many in Nelson have been licensed, so that's interesting.
Kendra: Yeah. There's a few, like the people I'm thinking of, like they've been licensed for a certain number of plants. And then, they have to go through like this whole thing where they have to like show that they have like the space, and like get that approved and like there's this whole thing. And they're kind of working through this process. But I was wondering, like what is like, is the regulation around like sharing that sort of thing on social media? Like if you were to have like, you know, open the warehouse and start growing legally, can you be set up an Instagram account?
Alison Gordon: Sure, I mean we have Instagram. You can go to the 48North Instagram. We do show pictures of our grow, especially the outdoor grow, cause that's exciting to be one of the few, like really I think there's like only five that have been licensed for outdoor and like our scale is huge. We're going on, you know, almost a hundred acres, so 3.5 million square feet. So it's to our knowledge, the largest legal outdoor grow in the world. So that's something like we're obviously documenting and showing on social media from time-to-time. You have two issues in social media, one is that Instagram, and/or Facebook, and others don't allow for weed to be shown. So many, many, many, many people do it. It's just a question of are you going to get caught, and your account shut down, and restart again, which has happened to many of my friends.
Alison Gordon: And, and then the other issue is of course Health Canada and you know again it's just that fine line between showing, educating, and not being promotional.
Kendra: Right. Yeah. Cause I'm guessing there's probably law like rules. You can't advertise. You can't run Facebook.
Alison Gordon: No we can't. That's what I was saying. You can't, well Facebook doesn't allow you themselves Within Canada, that's what I was saying earlier, but I guess I cut out is, you are not allowed to market or advertise at all. You're not allowed to sponsor events. You're not allowed to. You know, in the U.S., you'll have certain brands naming their strains Calm or Energetic just to simplify it or the consumer.
Alison Gordon: You can't do that in Canada. You can't make claims, like you can't do anything. So that's where Latitude or us starting up sort of auxiliary, you know, businesses to be able to educate is so critical to the mission.
Kendra: So, for like the small guys, like for people who, you know, maybe in Canada who are, you know, getting licenses and they're eventually going to be legal and be able to kind of start their own operations. Like I'm guessing, like their marketing strategy is going to have to kind of include a lot of what you guys are doing. Like they're going to have to like also work on like changing perception and making it relatable and that sort of thing. Right. You think that's correct?
Alison Gordon: Well, I mean I don't know. Hopefully as they come online, we've done good work. And we can we help change that? I think everybody has a role to play in that for sure. But, you know, , again, without truly boring your listeners, it is very weird to call this out in your community. Like what a lot of people try and forget, is that we grow for up to sit down and that still exists. So, I'm not sure what you're referring to when you talk about license. They're still growers who are growing for patients, but that's not really what they're doing. Right. So they're legally allowed this grow, and they're saying they're growing them for patients, but it very well, okay. You know,
it might hit the black market, or illegal dispensaries, or whatever it is. I don't know. I don't want us to get rid of people that are growing for patients, and I'm making is that it's very difficult to actually get a license in Canada. Very, very difficult.
Kendra: Yeah. And it seems like, and I'm totally uneducated in the whole process and like, you know, I'm kind of just like, I'm hearing this through the grapevine and yeah, but from what the one thing I do understand, is that it sounds very complicated.
Alison Gordon: It's complicated and Canada's a highly regulated country. So you know, what do we have five banks, five cell phone companies. It's not going to be that there'll be thousands of these companies. What the government did put into effect last year was is the micro processing and micro grows. So you might, in referring to, you know, they're trying to license sort of small boroughs for people to transition from the black market.
But these, you know, it's a very difficult business to be in because then you have to figure out how to get your products onto a shelf which runs to the governments and requires enough quantity.
You know, it's like alcohol. It's like if you want to get your stuff in the LCBO Ontario and you only make a hundred bottles of something, that's very difficult for them to stock and spread out amongst their. So it's not, unfortunately the way it's structured today at business for small businesses.
Alison Gordon: Certain verticals might be, meaning you might grow up very small, grow very, you know, good quality craft, cheap and then sell it to a company like mine who has the ability to take that and get that on to along with our other products. But the industry needs to evolve to allow for small businesses to take part in it.
Kendra: So that's something your company does. Like you might look at like a, like a micro grow and like take their product. And try to like help them like get it to a bigger market?
Alison Gordon: Well, I think what we would do potentially, is we just buy it from them. So we just buy wholesale. It's not like to help them get on the shell. Right. It's to supply us with the high quality input. That we can then use our brands for. You know,
Kendra: it just seems like it's complicated and there's a lot of gray area right now. Because I mean I'm sure lots of people are still selling on the black market and I'm sure the black market's going to be around for a few more years before it totally disappears. Right?
Alison Gordon: The legal market is not gray at all. It's black and white. Right. For the average person, the black market and the gray market. Like it's all bleeding into one.
Totally. Well thank you so much for having this conversation.
Alison Gordon: Thank you.
Kendra: I feel like I learned a lot. I also learned I'm way more ignorant about this industry than I thought I was. That's good. I'll have to do some more reading and I'll definitely be following you on Instagram. And how can our listeners get hold of you and learn more about 48North and Rethink?
Alison Gordon: Well they can definitely follow us on Instagram at 48North. I am on Instagram as cannabisculturist. Which is a bit hard to spell. But if you find your way to 48 North, I'm sure you'll find your way to me. I think there is a lot of, I know there's a lot of great resources online for people to understand the health and wellness aspect of cannabis. So I would just suggest Googling and like whether it's Leafly, or Miss Grass, or any of these other content producers. Like you'll find your way to good content to start to understand what you know cannabis can do for your life.
Kendra: Awesome. Well thank you so much. I really, really appreciate you taking the time out of your, I'm sure. Like you sound like a busy person, so we really appreciate it. And thank you to all the listeners and as always, we will see you again in one week on Wednesday with another awesome episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. Love you all, and we'll talk to you guys next time.