All Posts by Kendra Perry

How Storytelling Influences Your Brand with Jamie Jensen



Storytelling is not longer just about Cinderella and her glass slipper. No, storytelling is an integral part of your business and influencing your business’s brand. As Jamie Jensen shares in this episode, storytelling is the most human and natural thing you can do for your business. Find out how to use your story to develop your brand and where to use it. You don’t have to have just one story – you can be extremely successful with mini stories and multiple different stories. Tune in to learn about the building blocks to a good story…you’ll want to have a pen and paper handy for this one!
We cannot stop gushing over our amazingly talented guest in this episode. Jamie Jensen is an award-winning screenwriter, business strategist, and the creator of Story School. To date, she’s helped over 700 entrepreneurs increase their sales by up to 900% with the power of effective storytelling. Prior to helping business leaders connect deeply with their audiences through copy, video, and talks, Jamie worked in story development in Hollywood, assisting writers in both film & television. Jamie is the co-director and executive producer of the feature film “Hannah Has a Ho-Phase,” which won her the “Best Feature Writer” award at La Femme Film Festival in 2013, and she most recently completed her 9th feature-length screenplay.

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Kendra Perry: Hello everyone. Welcome to another amazing episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I'm Kendra Perry and I'm hanging out with my incredibly sexy and amazing and hilarious-

Christine: Totally, guys. I totally feel it.

Kendra Perry: ... cohost. Christine's here with her beer because she says it's after 5:00am and she [inaudible 00:00:27].

Christine: Okay. Well, now I can just have a sip right? Because I was going to do it on the low key but okay, fine.

Kendra Perry: You know what? Just go for it. Let's just be yourself.

Christine: It's 5:00 going 6:00. That's totally acceptable in Europe. I don't know but ...

Kendra Perry: I think it's totally acceptable. It's like 8:00 AM here, but, you know, it's all good. I've got my coffee. You got your beer. So-

Christine: See? There you go.

Kendra Perry: ... this is how we [inaudible 00:00:44]. Awesome. So guys, we have a really good show for you today. We're going to be talking about copywriting and storytelling. As you guys know, we were just at Social Media Marketing World in San Diego about a month ago now. A big theme of the conference was storytelling. Everyone was talking about how important it is to weave your story into your brand and into your message and we loved it. We actually did a couple of storytelling workshops.

Kendra Perry: After we got this message I was like, "Okay, we need to get someone on for storytelling" and I thought of Jamie Jensen because she is an award-winning screenwriter, business strategist and the creator of Story School. To date, she's helped over 700 entrepreneurs increase their sales by up to 900%-

Christine: What?

Kendra Perry: ... with the power of effective storytelling. That's pretty crazy.

Christine: That's an impressive number, dude.

Kendra Perry: Prior to helping business leaders connect deeply with their audiences through copy, video and talks, Jamie worked in story development in Hollywood assisting writers in both film and television. She is the co-director and executive producer of the feature film Hannah Has A Ho-Phase. Interesting. I'm like, what's that about? Which won her the Best Feature Writer Award at La Femme Film Festival in 2013. She most recently completed her ninth feature-length screenplay. Jamie, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.

Jamie Jensen: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Kendra Perry: So tell me, what is Hannah Has A Ho-Phase. What's a ho phase? I'm so intrigued.

Jamie Jensen: It's a phase-

Christine: A ho phase or a whole face? Like it's just [inaudible 00:02:15]-?

Jamie Jensen: No. Like it's a phase when you're being a ho.

Christine: Oh I ... You know what? I understood she has a whole face. Like a whole W-H ... I was like, "Well what if you don't have a whole face? Do you have a half a face? Like what does that mean?" So, okay, got it. I'm on your level now.

Jamie Jensen: You know what?

Christine: We've all had a-

Jamie Jensen: It's a raunchy, romantic comedy so that's what it's about.

Kendra Perry: I think that's fantastic. I had a ho phase once so ... I've had a couple actually so-

Jamie Jensen: Oh dude [crosstalk 00:02:43].

Kendra Perry: ... I would probably really relate to this. Whoo hoo.

Christine: Who hasn't had a ho phase? I mean really?

Kendra Perry: So I-

Christine: Very poor people I guess. Very ... I don't know. People who are very stuck up.

Kendra Perry: No it's some such an interesting bio, Jamie. I love how you did the storytelling and storywriting for Hollywood. How did you transition into working with creatives and entrepreneurs online?

Jamie Jensen: Yeah, I mean I still do all of it to be honest. It wasn't like, oh, I ... It's more of just adding. It's adding more of what I do and taking a lot of the expertise that I have, not just from studying storytelling in like a formal way, but also from, you know, the business of film, which is ... My masters is in producing and so it's very much the business of content. So you have to look at marketing as a piece of the picture and a piece of, you know, everything that you're creating. You have to be asking yourself like, "How is this marketable?" As you're developing yourself as a writer, as a screenwriter in Hollywood, you're always looking at like, “Well, what's your brand? What's your voice? What makes you marketable? What makes you an enticing package?”

Jamie Jensen: When we're looking at people who are marketing themselves online, whether they're doing a lifestyle business and it's ... they're the brand, you kind of have to ask the same questions.

Kendra Perry: Yeah.

Jamie Jensen: So it really wasn't ... It was really a natural transition for me to start supporting entrepreneurs. The way that it happened ... and what's funny is my dad was an entrepreneur, so I actually grew up with like learning about sales and learning about direct response copy and learning about a lot of the stuff that I ended up applying to my business and then to other people's businesses.

Jamie Jensen: But really the way that I got started was, I was writing for everyone around me. You know, people were coming to me asking for help with their website copy. I was that go-to person that, "Oh well I have to write a bio on my website. I have to write a this. I have to write a that." So I just kind of became that go-to person for people in my circles. It eventually dawned on me that that was probably the business I should be starting.

Christine: That's a lot of money in there. Like [inaudible 00:04:44] it's like something where I don't skip on. Like where I don't really don't really care what the price tag is to some extent. It's so key. So I'm really excited to hear, you know, how you teach this as well because I find to some extent you can have talent or you can't, but it's ... So it's really going to be interesting to see what your main takeaways are for our listeners today as far as you can reveal your secrets. So it's going to good. So yeah, let's go ahead.

Kendra Perry: Awesome. Well I'd love to know like I know our listeners are probably thinking like, "Why do I need a story? I have a business." Why is it important to have a story in business?

Jamie Jensen: So storytelling really is, and this is funny because this is one of the reasons why I'm obsessed with story and why it's been like my nerd obsession since I was a teenager really. It's the most human thing. It's completely natural. It's completely human and everything that you ultimately end up learning about a story when you really study it is how it speaks to the human condition.

Jamie Jensen: The reason that storytelling is so important in marketing and especially the way that you choose to engineer and tell your stories, is that it really is a bridge that connects one human to another human. When you're able to not just communicate your experience, your expertise, what you've been through, build evidence ... You know stories are how we communicate meaning, are how we communicate lessons. They're how we ... Really, it's the difference between having a really smart quote on Instagram where someone's like, "Oh my God, totally. Like, just let it go" right? Versus like watching Frozen and understanding what that really means, right? So it's like, it's a different emotional experience that allows a person to actually integrate what they're learning and make it part of themselves.

Jamie Jensen: So you could tell someone, "Oh, well, I help clients achieve XYZ" blah, blah, blah. So for example, for me, oh yeah, I've had a client. Like I helped my clients increase their sales by up to 900%", but what anchors that in reality is me telling you the story of my client, Lauren, and like how she created a program herself and how she wrote all of her own copy and how she had a hungry audience, but what she was doing wasn't communicating to them appropriately. So through the process we worked on together, which I'm not going to go into deep detail, but that's how we ended up increasing her sales. So really you're humanizing an experience and making it relevant to the person who's paying attention.

Jamie Jensen: The big reason that I'm obsessed with story and also why it's so important is like that's about emotional resonance. So where ... It's like ... I call it like you're communing with your audience because you're ... because they're seeing themselves in you and they're feeling themselves in you. It's not just like, "Oh, I want to achieve what they achieved." It's, "Oh, I can feel what they felt, like both the pain and the victory." Everyone wants to experience that for themselves. So when you can have that experience and really demonstrate results to somebody and possibilities to somebody in an emotional way, like that's when it really becomes real for them.

Christine: Totally. Makes Sense. So let me ask you a question because that's something that I struggled with and we've talked about this before, Kendra and I, which is that, we all have like ... I think in high school you even learn the typical hero's journey of the struggle and then the victory and climax and dah dah dah. What if you don't ... and for me it was an issue for a long time. It's that I don't have the typical hero's journey, right? So my niche is sleep. I've always been a good sleeper. Right? So that's ... It wasn't my personal struggle per se that I got into the business that I have. It's not like for example, a cancer survivor who managed to get much better through nutrition or something like that. I know for a lot of health coaches, a lot of them do have the personal hero's journey. But what about those who came into this business for a completely different reason and who are probably like, "Oh yeah. This is not going to work for me because I don't have this story." What do you ...

Jamie Jensen: That's a great question and it's one that I love answering.

Christine: [inaudible 00:08:44].

Jamie Jensen: So the way that you use the hero's journey in marketing isn't about always telling your own hero's journey. Sometimes it is, and sometimes you have a story that works and functions and beautifully matches up like perfect puzzle pieces with your customer's journey mirroring your journey. However, the goal isn't about establishing that your story mirrors their story. The goal with telling your story is establishing your character and your place in their journey, which means that your job can be, to be the person who's been down the road they want to walk down, but your job can also be the person who's the exact compliment and opposite of them. So your example is great because you're like, "I've always been a good sleeper".

Jamie Jensen: But another example I love to use is like, let's say that you help people design and develop websites and you're very tech savvy. Your clients are people who don't want to touch the backend of a WordPress website to save their life. Like it scares them. They're afraid they're going to break something. It's just not their genius zone. They're really good at what they do. They're not good at tech.

Jamie Jensen: Your journey's never going to mirror their journey. Your place in their story is helping them get where they want to go by being the expert they need to get there. So when you choose to tell your story, I'm sure that there are stories you could tell about how awkward it could be, because this is also just like a normal human thing. You don't feel like you belong because maybe you're the one person who is good at something that everyone else around you isn't, and that establishes who you are to everyone else who needs your support.

Jamie Jensen: So I always say, and I always ... I actually have a training. I don't even know where it is right now. Like I don't know if I have it prerecorded anywhere, about the four business stories that every business needs because most businesses have a version of, "I'm exactly like you. I've been exactly where you've been", but the other side of that is like, "I'm actually completely different from you and that's a great thing because I'm going to be able to help you with stuff that you can't help yourself with alone."

Christine: Perfect. Yeah, that makes total sense. You know? I think sometimes you just need a little bit of help with that because you're so close to it whenever you do write your story that having a framework or having someone who can just see what you don't see is super, super helpful, I reckon.

Jamie Jensen: Yeah. I think a lot of our people ... I think a lot of people in general, not you Christine, but a lot of people get into health coaching, the health industry because of their own stories. I think there's a lot of people out there in our audience who probably do have really amazing personal stories they can weave into it, but I feel like ... The thing I hear a lot is, people get into health coaching because yeah, they had their own health struggle, but they're not necessarily out the other end yet. You know what I mean? Like they're still in it.

Christine: [inaudible 00:11:32].

Kendra Perry: So I feel like people are scared to share it because it's not like, "Yeah, I have this personal health struggle, but now I'm good. I feel great. I have energy. I'm awesome." Like they're still in the depths of it. They still feel like shit. They still have whatever issue and I think that can be pretty powerful. What do you think? Like even if you haven't come out the other end, like that can probably be a really good connecting point too.

Jamie Jensen: I think so. I think that that's a perfectionism problem.

Kendra Perry: Right.

Jamie Jensen: I think that that's like a visibility problem and a perfectionism problem where you're afraid to just be real with your audience. You know, I think you can come along way in a journey and still not be where you want to go. The truth is that in life, that's really how it is. Like you can, "Oh I hit six figures in my business. Now I want to multiply that. Now I want to hit seven." Or, "Oh I ... " You know, whatever it is that you are looking at as external markers of results. Yes those things matter in marketing but the truth is that the purpose of your marketing story is to build that know, like and trust, you know, that love factor. It's to create that relationship development with your customer and for them to really feel like they know you.

Jamie Jensen: So my thing is like, be transparent. You know, the truth is that health isn't the type of thing where like we're done. Mental health and physical health, you're never done. You're never like, "Oh my God, I'm like the perfect statue of exactly what I want to be and I'm going to freeze time." Like, "This is my freeze frame." It's like health is something that we're constantly working on. It's not like ... I had a therapist in New York a few years ago and she's like, "You're never done. You're never like, 'Oh, all of my childhood wounds disappeared.'"

Kendra Perry: I'm healed.

Jamie Jensen: "Poof, they're gone. I eliminated them. I'm healed." I'm sorry. I know.

Christine: Unless you work with Jesus, it's like, I [inaudible 00:13:11].

Jamie Jensen: I mean-

Christine: Oh my God.

Kendra Perry: [crosstalk 00:13:14].

Jamie Jensen: Look, there are plenty of energy healers who are like, "I cleared it. It's gone forever." I'm like, "It's not ... That's not how the subconscious mind works, people."

Christine: No, no.

Jamie Jensen: That's fine, because you can always be improving. The truth is that if you don't take the step forward towards improving, then you're never really going to improve, like at all. But I do think that not sharing your story because you're not in perfect health is fine because no one's ever in complete perfect health. There's like actually no such thing. Yeah.

Christine: So tell us a little bit about how to use your story. So let's say that we have some listeners who are like, "Okay, I get it. It makes sense to tell my story. It's ultimately going to convert into [cashola 00:13:58] because people like me. They will trust me and hence they will finally sign up with me after stalking me for five years on my email list. But how do you-

Jamie Jensen: The long game strategy. This is long tail economics.

Christine: Just like so painful. Like how do you use it apart from let's say the obvious. So for me the obvious would be, okay, I work out of my story and then I have it on my website. Probably because I like video, I'd record it and I tell it that way. Probably have it in my copy on my website. How else can you use your story? What have you seen when working with people in ways that they've used, what they worked on with you and then kind of implemented it in different ways?

Jamie Jensen: Yeah, this is a great question. It's actually like, I've created a bit of a framework around this because I have people who do My Story School Program or who've come to me and they're like, "I know my story but I don't know how to use it and I don't know how to adapt it to platforms." So I'm just going to list off the platforms that I'm like, "These all need your story and the way you use your story in these platforms is going to be different for each platform." So obviously social media, your website, your About page. If you want to create a brand video script, I also highly recommend creating video scripts and shooting video for Facebook Ads, for funnels, written copy in your Facebook Ads? For sure. If you're going to do a talk, if you're going to build it into a book. Those are really ... I feel like those are the big ones. Speaking website, social media, book. Oh, and a webinar.

Kendra Perry: Webinar. Yeah.

Christine: So what would social media look like? So I would just be like, "Okay. I do one post" like ... Ugh, this is too cheesy. It grosses me out, but you know, you have the vulnerability posts, so I just go like. But it's ...

Kendra Perry: Disclaimer. Vulnerable share.

Christine: Yeah, [inaudible 00:15:47] like ... Eye roll.

Jamie Jensen: Why do you need to ... It's not. I want to read it less now actually.

Christine: That's as far as my imagination goes to how I would use this. So please [inaudible 00:16:00] this kind of space. Would you kind of chop it up? Or how do you do it? I mean Kendra is pretty good at this stuff too, in a way-

Kendra Perry: [inaudible 00:16:08].

Christine: ... and I know that you're stalking people who are very good at this, Kendra, too know. So I'm not very ... In that aspect, I don't know what I have, some story trauma or something, I just cannot see it. It's one of these things where my brain is just like trees. I don't see anything, you know? So how would you do that? How would you use it?

Jamie Jensen: It may be some story trauma. We can talk about that.

Kendra Perry: I love it. I love it.

Jamie Jensen: These things are real. So with social media it's a little bit different in how you decide to use your story because I think that you can actually tell the same story in like a hundred different ways and keep reinforcing it. One of the things that I tell people to do, and I talk about this in Story School is like, every story has little stories in it.

Christine: Yeah.

Jamie Jensen: So you can choose like ... You can choose a snippet, you can also take a snapshot and expand upon it. Like, let's say part of your story is like the moment, so the part of every story is like, "The moment I decided to shit needed to change." Right? So like you can say that in like two sentences when you're telling it any other place. But when you're telling it on social media, you can literally just take that moment and zoom, zoom in, right?

Jamie Jensen: So you're like, "I remember the moment that I decided shit needed to change. I was walking here. I was at a café. I went to a cafe with my friend. I was sitting. I remember the cafe looked like this. I remember ... " You know, it's like you get really into details and you expand upon a moment and you ... It really is this game of like time expanding and contracting depending on where in the chronological timeline of your story you're speaking to. So that's number one.

Jamie Jensen: Number two is with social media, it doesn't ... Like every ... You're going to have more than one story in your business. I think we get really obsessed with like, "This is my brand story." And the truth is that like-

Kendra Perry: I know.

Jamie Jensen: ... you need more than one, and you're not just going to have one and use one. You're going to have many. They're all going to relate to the topics in your business that you speak to that are important to you. So you know, let's say like self-care is a pillar of what you care about and what your brand values are. So you're going to have a lot of stories that relate to self-care. The core brand story work is there to really speak to what's the main thing that people need to know to understand what you do, why you're the best at what you do and why they should know, like, and trust you. Like that's your core. Who are you for them? That establishes that.

Jamie Jensen: Beyond that, like you can create a story bank. Part of the process of being a content creator is mining for stories in everyday life. So it's a little bit of both in that, you can use snippets of your brand story and expand upon them. You can take from other things that are happening in your life that relate back to the brand values that you stand for. That's usually what I would recommend.

Jamie Jensen: I think for some people it can be really intuitive and they can just create on the fly. For others, they need a bank. They need to work with someone to extract stories out of them and like give them a spreadsheet of like, "Listen, here's 20 stories that you can tell and you can repurpose them in different ways and you can tell them ... " You know, and quite honestly, if you had a bank of 20 stories on social media, people probably would stop noticing that you were telling the same story.

Christine: Oh yeah. [inaudible 00:19:18].

Jamie Jensen: Like they wouldn't notice by the time you got to 20 again, like number one happened again and they're ... They would just be like, "Wow, oh my gosh", because you're catching a new follower. You know, it's not.

Kendra Perry: Too.

Jamie Jensen: Yeah. Does that help? Does that make sense?

Christine: My eyes are like, you know, the heart or the star Emoji? It's like right here on a [inaudible 00:19:37] bank. I'm just like, cling. [inaudible 00:19:39].

Kendra Perry: Well, I love it, and it seems like what you're saying is like, it doesn't need to be this like crazy story. Like you could take small little things that happened in your life and turn them into something interesting that has maybe a lesson or, yeah, it relates back to the overall message that you're trying to tell. Right?

Christine: I just have to laugh because Kendra posted her cooler with all her food that she talked to.

Kendra Perry: [inaudible 00:20:01]. You know? [inaudible 00:20:01].

Christine: I was just like, "Oh, this stuff is delicious." And she's really good at what she does. She knows her shit, but it was just too hilarious seeing that cooler with all of the food.

Kendra Perry: Well, you know, this-

Christine: [crosstalk 00:20:16] it was like [crosstalk 00:20:17].

Kendra Perry: ... spa that I go to, they have a really expensive shitty restaurant. So I packed everything I needed in my cooler for like two days. But it's funny, everyone was like, "Oh my God, you're so healthy." I'm like, "Do you know that underneath the greens and the [inaudible 00:20:29] was four chocolate bars and like all this fucking shit crap food?" And everyone's like, "Oh my God, you're so healthy." I'm like, "Nah, I just packed a certain way."

Christine: It was really good [inaudible 00:20:41]. It was amazing [crosstalk 00:20:44].

Jamie Jensen: Strategic packing.

Christine: Totally. Very.

Kendra Perry: I'm like, "I'm so healthy", and then behind the scenes I'm stuffing like five chocolate bars in my face.

Christine: Yeah, I'm really getting into it. Like I try ... We went to a workshop at Social Media Marketing Worlds for Instagram Stories and both Kendra and I are totally flashing on it and I try to be more strategic about it now. So I literally have some days where I'll just prerecord. So I record moments and then I upload them all together in the evening. So really trying to have just a life into me. I don't quite manage to always tie it into my topic, I have to say maybe because my life doesn't quite revolve around it. Or maybe today, because today I literally didn't get out of bed cause I was just lazy, but that's not quite the same thing.

Christine: But I do find that these platforms are all pushing these dory kind of structures, you know, not to just do a one-off picture or just to do a one-off kind of video, but really to try and tie it in so that people can get to know you and that it's literally like a, yeah, like a script in a way. So what have you ... So particular to Instagram stories, have you had a client who for example said, "Look, I want to focus on that"? What have you found maybe that is great at working at that concept to also convert clients? Because in the end, it's all fun and games, but we really want to make money, right? So what are things where you said, "This is the golden ..." Not the golden ticket. We know that doesn't really exist but as close to.

Jamie Jensen: Really ... I mean social media is about developing relationships. So it's hard for me to say use conversion strategies on Instagram stories because I don't think it's about that. As far as far as storytelling techniques are concerned, it is pulling someone through a beginning, middle, and an end. So it's like, "Oh, I started cooking this, and here's all the different steps in the process." I think that process-oriented stories are probably the best thing to do on Instagram.

Kendra Perry: Yeah [inaudible 00:22:41].

Jamie Jensen: Taking people behind the scenes, taking them into the how, sharing what you're working on and like teasing-

Christine: [inaudible 00:22:47].

Jamie Jensen: ... your audience with what you're working on. Like, honestly, I think that it ... I think that the best use of Instagram Stories is always process-oriented behind the scenes.

Christine: Yeah. That's very cool.

Jamie Jensen: Taking them like behind the curtain. You know, it's like the Wizard of Oz.

Kendra Perry: Behind the curtain.

Christine: Yeah [inaudible 00:23:02].

Jamie Jensen: I can't speak to like, well what converts sales on Instagram. It's not ... I don't know. I don't look at social media that way. I think you're continuing to reiterate your message, the value you deliver, how you help, who you are. Then you lead them to the next step, which could be a landing page, could be a website, could be a webinar, could be a challenge, could be a Facebook group where you're nurturing an audience beyond what you're doing. I think that it can be challenging to build that same sense of like community and tribe on Instagram compared to the way you use other platforms and how they function for conversion, if that makes sense.

Christine: Yeah, totally.

Kendra Perry: It seems like social media is kind of like that dating part of a relationship where you're just kind of like, you go for coffee. You're like, "Hey, this is a little bit about me. Can I know a little bit about you?" But if you come in too heavy with the sale and you're like, "Hey, you want to like get married, have babies right now?" That person's going to be like-

Christine: Yes.

Jamie Jensen: ... "Holy shit. That's fucking crazy. Get me out of here", right? Like I talk about relationship development like a lot with different platforms and like what stage they are. You know, like when someone opts in they're like, "Oh yeah, yeah. Take my number." You know?

Christine: Totally.

Jamie Jensen: And someone who's following you on social media, like it is they're like, "We're checking you out. We're maybe flirting, but like I don't have your number yet. Like we're not there yet", right?

Kendra Perry: Yeah. I think that's important because I know I made this mistake when I was new to having a business. It's just like ... You're just like, "Oh sweet. I'll just get a Facebook page and I'll just tell people about my program and people will buy." And then you're pushing it out there and you're getting crickets and nothing's happening. You're like, "I don't understand why people don't want this from me."

Christine: I used the exact template that made Russell Brunson a gazillion billion dollars. Why isn't it working? You know?

Kendra Perry: Yeah.

Christine: I get it.

Jamie Jensen: Totally.

Christine: It's just more difficult than that sometimes.

Jamie Jensen: It's also kind of-

Kendra Perry: So Jamie [crosstalk 00:25:10]-

Jamie Jensen: That's also the same thing as like getting into a really sexy dress, going to a party and walking around the whole time, talking about yourself. Like that's what then it's like, "Who wants to date that?" It's just like you know, it's like, "I'm really hot. I'm just going to walk around and talk about myself the whole time" and like not ask questions and not listen and not speak to them and not engage and like not care about anybody else. Like that's [crosstalk 00:25:34] person.

Kendra Perry: [crosstalk 00:25:34] that's literally what-

Jamie Jensen: That's what people do when they build their website and they're like, "It's all about me." [inaudible 00:25:41] but like no one cares.

Kendra Perry: Yeah, no one cares about you.

Jamie Jensen: [inaudible 00:25:44] care about themselves.

Christine: Totally.

Jamie Jensen: Yeah.

Christine: [inaudible 00:25:47].

Kendra Perry: So I was ... Right before we hopped on the call I went and got your email opt-in and I got all your stuff and in the, your little like mini course that I think just purchased because I got sucked in, but I'm really excited to do it. But you were talking about in the first email that I got, you talked about like a story format where you said, "The desire, the challenge, the twist, the shift and the takeaway." Can you break that down a little bit? Is that kind of how you coach people how to kind of start building their story?

Jamie Jensen: So the tripwire that you bought is like, I have a five-step story formula, which is exactly that. It's ... How do I say this? It's kind of like one format that isn't as detailed as other formats I teach. So yes, I can.

Jamie Jensen: Usually, what I have people do is I have them work backwards through it. So we start with like the takeaway, which is like, what's the message you really want to deliver? What are you trying to say? Sometimes you don't know until you've like done the other five steps and then you come back around and you're like, "Oh wait, what am I really trying to say here? What am I trying to convey?" So knowing what you stand for, what's the result that you want to actually show your audience as possible, and the story that you share no matter what, should be evidence for that takeaway.

Jamie Jensen: So I always talk about romantic comedies because I've written quite a few and that's ... I write R-rated comedies, but I also write relationship-driven stories so they'd follow a romantic comedy structure.

Kendra Perry: Very cool.

Jamie Jensen: The underlying message of all romantic comedies is love conquers all. Like that's really [inaudible 00:27:21] they all end, love conquers everything.

Christine: Okay. I'm out a divorce. I'm fine. Oh no. Where's my beer?

Jamie Jensen: But if the movie didn't end with them living happily ever after and then it's like, "We don't see anything that happens after that because we're stop ... It's kind of like what you're saying with health coaches who haven't [inaudible 00:27:45] at the end and they're like, "I don't want to share my story because ... " Because it keeps going, but we get to choose what snapshot we share of our timelines.

Jamie Jensen: If the romantic comedy movie didn't end in that space, then the message would change. So you get to decide what your message is based on what you share in your story and like where you start, where you end. So know your takeaway.

Jamie Jensen: You know, when I teach this on stage, I call it ... I had a professor in college who called like, he would say he had a chicken McNugget for us. That was like his way of saying it's a little nugget of information. So he would call it chicken McNugget. It was just hilarious. So I'm like, "What's your chicken McNugget? What do you want people to walk away with? What do you want them to feel and know and do and feel confident in?" So always start with the takeaway.

Jamie Jensen: The desire is usually going to be, you know, what is it that ... If you're telling your personal story, what is it that you wanted that set you off on the journey in the first place? What created that desire? What was the goal? What did you want? The challenges like, what was hard about that? What was the problem you encountered trying to face the goal? The twist is like, what did you have to change?

Jamie Jensen: So, for example, let's say your goal ... I'm just going to use like a really ... This is just going to be really bad example, but the basic, most basic example. Let's say that the goal was like, I want to lose 10 pounds. Okay? So you're like, "I'm gonna lose 10 pounds. I'm going to do it by like not eating sugar and working out every day", which actually sounds really healthy and probably I should use a better example. But let's say that like it's not working for you or you crave chocolate every day and you're like, "I just need to eat chocolate everyday. Like I can't do this no sugar thing. It doesn't work for me." So you decided like, "This isn't going to work. I need a different approach." So that's the twist.

Kendra Perry: Right [inaudible 00:29:40].

Jamie Jensen: Then the shift is you take a new approach that helps you actually get where you want to go. So the shift is like, "Oh, here's my new approach." You know, when we're talking about storytelling, it's always about a character achieving a goal in spite of obstacles. Based on what the obstacles are and what the obstacles ... what you encounter, what happens is either the goal changes or you find a way of overcoming the obstacle that becomes part of the takeaway message. So you're building evidence for what you want the customer to know.

Jamie Jensen: So let's say you want the customer to know you can have chocolate every day and lose weight, and like, here's my system for doing that, right? So then that's the story you tell them and in the shift you're like, "Instead of not eating sugar, what I did was I let myself have one piece of chocolate every day and that actually helped me curb my cravings, and like balanced whatever and I wasn't like I had to ... I experienced pleasure in how I was eating and that helped me create what I wanted to create." So that's kind of the very fast version of teaching those steps.

Christine: I like it. So how do you work with your clients. So, I mean it's such a personal kind of topic, but from what I soused out here, there's like all kinds of different strategies that you use. You know, let's talk business here. Like the way that you structured your business, so walk us a little bit through that. If we have some people like me right now who's like on my notepad is like hire her, [inaudible 00:31:07]. How did you build your business and how is it structured now?

Jamie Jensen: Yeah, so is the question like what do I offer and what are my like what's my business model?

Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.

Jamie Jensen: Yeah, so great question. I had a copywriting agency for about four years that I shut down a year and a half or two years ago now. So that was my first business model. Now my model is different. I do a lot more teaching, mentorship, consulting, optimization and like custom work. So I don't really do done-for-you writing very often. I will do co-writing with people sometimes like actually help them, they write, I write, we switched back and forth. I support them in extracting what needs to be extracted and structuring it the way it needs to be structured. So it's a little similar to like developmental editing work but it involves more like story extraction.

Jamie Jensen: I have a process for getting people to like share stuff and I go really deep with my clients. You know I'm a [inaudible 00:32:05] person so even though what we pull out is going to be like really, really legit and, and it's going to have emotional resonance, but we can also build a sense of humor into it, which is really what I do with people.

Christine: Awesome.

Jamie Jensen: So to-

Kendra Perry: [crosstalk 00:32:20]. I actually noticed that about your website. I was like, "Man, her copy is really good", but I laughed the whole time when I read your About page. I was like, "This is great", because I love that. I love humor. Like you know, it's like, "Well, is she serious?" We've got to like laugh and say stupid shit sometimes.

Christine: Totally.

Jamie Jensen: That's what I did. Like the first website that I had, everything was super clean and like polite. The one that I have now, it's just like full of swear words and just calling it the way that it is. Ultimately people buy us. So if they don't like the way that we talk, they will never trust us and they will never [inaudible 00:32:52].

Kendra Perry: You need to bring all of you.

Christine: Yeah.

Kendra Perry: Okay. That sounds-

Jamie Jensen: So the business model is, I have two courses I sell. One is on writing your website copy to convert more clients and one is more, it's Story School, which is like, "Here's really like all you need to know about story structure." So I've eliminated all of the BS, like all the stuff you don't need to know, here, you don't need to know it, but like, here's actually how to tell a story to engineer it emotionally. So that's what Story School is.

Jamie Jensen: Then what I've created now that I'm actually putting together for the summer is, more of like a group mentorship program around like how to take your story and adjust it to different platforms. So it's kind of a blend of ... It's going to be like a small program, but it will be a group, but it'll be like the best way to get mentorship from me because it's not as expensive as one-on-one would be for example.

Kendra Perry: Right, yeah.

Christine: Yeah.

Kendra Perry: Yeah.

Christine: Which is what Kendra does mainly too.

Jamie Jensen: [inaudible 00:33:55].

Kendra Perry: Yeah. Like group programs. One-on-one I find so exhausting sometimes, but group os fun.

Jamie Jensen: Yeah, yeah. I love one-on-one, but it's ... Because I only have until [inaudible 00:34:05] group courses but it's because charge accordingly so it's fine.

Kendra Perry: Totally. Cool. It sounds like when you work with a client you kind of pull the stories out of them. I'm picturing this therapy session where I cry a lot.

Jamie Jensen: Totally. That is totally what happens.

Kendra Perry: I feel [crosstalk 00:34:19] as in, "This doesn't belong to my story. Tell me more. Boo hoo" you know? Like, yeah.

Jamie Jensen: It's very healing. Like, here's the thing. Stories heal people. Like this is, I mean, this is honestly why I do the work I do. Like, I believe that story is healing. I believe that watching someone else's story can help you have that emotional catharsis where you're like, "Oh my God. They're me." Then you actually get the benefit of that healing.

Jamie Jensen: I have people who listen to my podcast, there are episodes where I just share stuff and they message me and they're like, "Oh my God. I so resonate with this. I went through that too. I was crying the whole time listening to your episode." We don't realize the power of sharing our story that like we're not just getting clients, we're actually healing other people by doing it. So it takes a lot of balls to really go there and it's worth it on many different levels.

Kendra Perry: Yeah, yeah. I totally agree about ... A year ago I made a shift to just trying to be more raw and honest with my past and things I've done and I've shared all kinds ... If you go through my Instagram, I mean you can learn some pretty dark things about me and embarrassing and like times where I like did too many drugs-

Christine: She [inaudible 00:35:32].

Kendra Perry: ... and like all kinds of stuff.

Christine: She [inaudible 00:35:33].

Kendra Perry: But it helps. Right? I get that too. People contact me and being like, "Oh my God, I can't believe you shared that. That was so raw and it shocked me, but it's so ... Like, I did that too", you know, sort of thing. I love that stories heal people. I think that's amazing.

Christine: Totally. All right, so I think that's pretty much all we have time for at the moment. But how can people get in touch with you and hire you ideally? I do think [inaudible 00:36:02] We tend to spend so much money, especially in the beginning of our business on email and [inaudible 00:36:08] courses and on website design and all kinds of crap. It's like, I think story is like one of the key pieces. It tends to be overlooked or not taken seriously when I think, I really believe that is one of the main converters in the end, longterm game. So how do people get in touch with you? How do they find you?

Jamie Jensen: They can go to the which is where Kendra grabbed the messaging worksheet and the mini story course, which we just chatted about. So there is a messaging worksheet on that page. If you're having trouble writing your About page and you just run a workshop, like a little workbook for that, I have a free one at that they can go grab that literally walks them through a process of like, I just ask them questions and they just answer them. By answering questions, they're actually writing the first draft for their About page. So it's so easy. It'll pull a story out of them for their About page. So I would say those are probably the best two places to go just get some support right now in like figuring out your messaging and kind of starting this process for sure.

Kendra Perry: Perfect.

Christine: Awesome.

Kendra Perry: Well I'll try to be less of a creeper, Jamie and I'll start to engage with you more because I've been like creeping behind your ship for a while.

Christine: See well it worked. You've bought, so it worked.

Kendra Perry: Yeah, I just came out of the woodwork. I'm like, "Be on my podcast. Oh my God", but really I've been creeping for a while so.

Jamie Jensen: This has been such a pleasure. Thank you ladies so much.

Kendra Perry: Thanks for being here.

Christine: Thanks so much.

Kendra Perry: Thanks so much guys. Yeah, if you're listening to this episode, make sure to screenshot it, share it to your stories, take a 360 Health Biz podcast and we will share it to our stories and give you a shout out. If you love this episode, definitely leave us a five star review on iTunes or wherever. I think you can only leave one on iTunes. Can you leave one on Spotify? I don't even know.

Christine: No.

Kendra Perry: I always say iTunes and Spotify, but maybe just iTunes and guys will be with you again in two weeks time with another fantastic episode. Bye.

Christine: [inaudible 00:38:01].

Q&A: C diff, Mold & SIBO as a Vegan, and more



This episode is the monthly Q&A where I answer questions submitted by YOU! I discuss:

1. How can I fix SIBO + histamine intolerance as a vegan?
2. How do I address C diff?
3. Could mold be making me sick?

With these I provide some juicy info about my favourite supplements to assist with C diff and toxicity binders. I also touch on vitamin D supplementation, Epstein-barr virus, and parasites.

Grab your FREE Endless Energy Checklist to get my top 5 non-negotiable strategies for eliminating fatigue:

Join my ground-breaking HIGH on Energy Program for Women:

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Say hi on Social:


Hey everyone, how's it going? Kendra Perry here. Welcome to another episode of the HIGH on Energy Podcast. And this is one of my favorite episodes to do because it is the monthly q&a. So every Tuesday, last Tuesday of the month, every single month, I do a Live q&a on my Facebook page, and if you guys want to ask me questions, if you want to interact with me, if you want to come say hey, you can literally ask me anything. Or if you can't make it, because we do it at 4:00pm Pacific, so we're going to be a little bit late for some people in eastern time zones, you're probably off and eating dinner and doing other things, you can always submit a question in advance by sending it to Or, just sending a message to my Facebook page Kendra Perry Nutrition.

So guys, I hope you've had a really good weekend. I actually celebrated my birthday yesterday, and it's 35. So, feeling a little bit older this year, maybe a little bit wiser, but I had a pretty good weekend, I went biking. Me and Ryan actually went to the Hot Springs and we booked a room. And they have these new rooms, they're super nice, separate from the main hotel. So they're super quiet, had a beautiful view of the lake, and we spent a good hour or more going in and out of the hot pools into the freezing cold pools. We've been really into cold therapy lately.

Last Christmas, not the one that just passed, but the Christmas before that I actually bought The Iceman Course for Ryan, for Christmas. So that's some Wim Hof, right? And so he's the guy who holds the world record for sitting in ice for the longest time because he's able to like regulate his body temperature, and he's also the guy who has climbed Mount Everest in shorts. So Ryan's gotten pretty into it, and actually, this whole winter, Ryan was actually swimming in the lake. And I kind of wanted to get into it with him. And I actually did pretty well in the cold pool. It's freezing cold. I don't actually know exactly how cold it is. But it was cool.

I managed to go in there and sit in there for five full deep breaths. I was pretty proud of myself, because I haven't been practicing like Ryan has. But I think it's pretty cool, and it made me feel really good. I think it's really good for circulation. And I think the trick to it because instantly when you get into cold water, all you want to do is just like start panicking and hyperventilating, because it activates your fight or flight system. Of course, it does. It's freezing cold water like you would go hypothermic in water that cold pretty fast. But of course, when you're using it for health optimization, you know you're not going to freeze to death, you know that you have a way to get warm. And in that case, we had a super Hot Springs right next to us. So you really got to just go into it slowly and deep breathing.

So I would just start with taking really deep breaths, I'd slowly walked down the stairs, I would get into the cold pool. I go all the way up to my neck and just kind of put my head into my prayer sign and just take deep breaths. So very, very cool.

Anyways guys, I've got a bunch of questions that I want to go through today that some of you guys submitted in advance. But if you're on Facebook Live with me today, definitely feel free to ask me any questions at all.

So, the first question is related to Sibo, and I had a bit of a computer crash, right before this happened. So I'm just going to have to pull it up. But I just wanted to say hi to Alicia, she's here. I feel like you're on all my Facebook Lives, Alicia, and I really, really appreciate it. So hello, and anyone else who's here, just let me know, say hi, otherwise, I have no idea that you're here.

So the first question is, is there any treatment for vegan people who have hydrogen Sibo paired with levels of histamine intolerance, any tips or suggestions?

First of all, I'm going to say that that is incredibly tricky situation if you're not eating meat. If you are trying to treat Sibo, ultimately when you get rid of Sibo, you're going to have to go on a low Fat Man's Diet, and if you're pairing that, with histamine intolerance, you can't tolerate high histamine foods when you overlap that, and you're also omitting meat from your diet. You're kind of in trouble, okay.

Honestly, in this situation, I really don't think... and people are going to probably hate me for this, but you're not really doing yourself any favor by being on a vegan diet. Honestly, it's a super restrictive diet. Yes, some people do thrive on it. But I would say that's a small minority of people who just happen to have good genes that support it. I don't think most people are going to thrive on that diet. Most people I see eating this type of diet are not thriving. They're really sick. They do have a lot of bloating and a lot of issues. And if you're going to restrict that diet even more by restricting fat man's and restricting histamine foods, you're going to be basically starving. You're going to get sicker. So I really don't recommend it. That's going to be really harsh on your system.

So my advice would be to eat a paleo esque diet while you're getting rid of Sibo. Eliminating the histamine foods as much as possible. And then once you eliminate the Sibo as determined by testing, you are going to then add in the Fahd maps diet for about three months. Once you get rid of the Sibo, see how you feel, try experimenting, if you're really committed to that type of diet, you can experiment with it again at that point, but if you try to do those two diets together, and being a vegan, I think you're going to make yourself really sick. I think that's the honest truth.

Ellen's on. Hello, Ellen. She says hi, Kendra. Can you remind me your opinion regarding vitamin D -29?

This is a really good question. So vitamin D is very much a result, and a symptom of a whole bunch of other things that happen for a long time prior to ending up with vitamin D. And taking vitamin D doesn't fix the issue because you're not dealing with all the upstream effects, and the fact that there's a good chance that your body is reducing vitamin D on purpose.

So when the body starts to get unbalanced when it's been subject to a lot of toxins, or metals, or chronic stress, all the things that wear on our body overtime and eventually make us sick. The first thing that happens is you get potassium loss. So potassium is the first mineral typically to get lost, also why it's probably one of the hardest minerals to raise because usually, once you realize you need to raise it, it's been deficient and depleted for a very long time. So first, potassium goes.

The second thing to go is magnesium. Once magnesium goes, you're going to end up with low boron. Once you lose potassium, magnesium and boron, you end up with soft tissue calcification, so the so now calcium no longer has its posse or its co-factors to keep it in the bone, which is where you want calcium to belong, in the bone 99%. It needs to be in the bone. If calcium is existing any more than 99% outside of the bone, you're going to have issues. You're going to have what's called soft tissue calcification, which is when calcium starts building up outside the bone into the soft tissue. So basically, you end up with soft tissue calcification, and your body actually lowers vitamin D on purpose, to try to stop it. Because soft tissue calcification is the body slowing down, it's the body's braking system. It prevents mobility, it affects cellular permeability. So it's really hard to get things in and out of the cells that affects emotions. It affects the thyroid, you do not want soft tissue calcification, and generally that is why your body is actually lowering vitamin D to stop the soft tissue calcification.

Now taking vitamin D isn't the solution, right? Because you can see that it's a result of something that's been going on for a long time; potassium loss, magnesium loss, boron loss, and then the calcium going up and then eventually lithium. Lithium is the last mineral to lost. And then you end up with the lowering of vitamin D as kind of a coping mechanism or balancing mechanism to try to stop the soft tissue calcification that is now happening because calcium doesn't have what it needs to stay in the bone.

So that's my opinion regarding vitamin D, I don't recommend it. I want to see the whole mineral profile, I want to see a hair mineral analysis, which you can run in my group membership program HIGH on Energy, and I can help you with that. Because... And Ellen, I can't remember if you've run one or not, you may need to remind one, but if you haven't, you definitely want to. Because if your vitamin D is that low, that's a sign that there is a cascading of things that have been going on for quite some time. And just taking vitamin D is not going to make the situation worse.

Melissa asks, thoughts on Epstein-Barr? I do have some thoughts on Epstein-Barr. Surprise, surprise, I have opinions. So basically, Epstein-Barr is not the root cause, and I know practitioners like Medical Medium have made you think that Epstein-Barr is the cause of all chronic health issues. A lot of people have Epstein-Barr. If you've ever had Mono as a teenager, that's the kissing disease because teenagers are gross, and they lick and kiss each other's mouths and share cigarettes, and do all that nasty shit. Basically, if you've ever had Mono, you have Epstein-Barr. Mono is just a manifestation of Epstein-Barr.

Now, if you're healthy, and you have strong immune system, and you don't have all these other stressors going on, then your immune system will actually keep Epstein-Barr in check, and it won't actually be an issue at all. It'll just exist inactive in your tissue, and that's totally cool. If you have activated Epstein-Barr, if it's come out of hiding, it means something is up with your immune system.

So there are mineral issues, there are heavy metals, there's probably glyphosate chemicals, you probably have other infections, you probably have parasites. Parasites are incredibly taxing on the immune system. I found they have the biggest effect on the immune system. So, Epstein-Barr is not really the issue, it's the fact that your immune system is no longer strong enough to keep it in hiding and to keep it inactive. So that is my thoughts on Epstein-Barr. If you've got it, you got to address the immune system, you need to see what's going on with your minerals. You need to do a bunch of testing to figure out why the Epstein-Barr is an issue because it really shouldn't be an issue if everything is working as it should.

Hope that answers your question, Melissa and welcome. Thank you for being here. After I dumped all that information in your face, right? All right.

So another submitted question was, I watched your video on C difficile infection without antibiotics. I'm wondering if I could have a bit more information on what exactly to take, and I'm from Canada, if that makes a difference on what will be available to me?

So, I would say like if you have C diff, the most important thing is to figure out why you ended up getting it. Because it's... C diff is around us all the time, but again, we should have strong defenses, we should have an immune system that works, stomach acid, all these things that prevent us from getting infected.

Now, with C diff, I really don't recommend, obviously, I'm not a doctor, that's my sort of medical disclaimer, I don't pretend to be one. But anyway, antibiotics don't really work for C diff, and antibiotics are often the cause of C diff.

And I think the other thing we need to keep in mind with infections is that the infections aren't often the driving factors of what's making us sick. Oftentimes, they are just a sort of a presentation or, a reflection of the bigger landscape of what's going on in the gut. So you need to address gut health, you need to address the mucosal layer of the gut. So you need to be taking things that help rebuild the gut lining, you need to be taking digestive support, you need to be addressing other infections and there are other infections on the GI-MAP that you might want to address first before addressing C diff.

You need to be taking a biofilm disruptor, that's really important. And the best protocol for C diff, and I tell it to you right now, this is some juicy information, it is Saccharomyces Boulardii. So that beneficial strain of yeast is very good at crowding out C diff, and oftentimes I see this work after one round. Like 90% of the time, it works after one round. So you need to do a high dose of Saccharomyces Boulardii, you want each capsule to have 5 million organisms in it. And you start with two weeks on four capsules, three times a day. For the next two weeks, you go to three capsules, two or three times a day. And for the final four weeks you do two capsules, three times a day. So it's over 400 capsules that you're taking. It's not cheap, but it works, works really well.

But like I said, you're not going to be successful in getting rid of it or preventing it from coming back unless you're addressing that entire gut landscape of what's going on, in entirety in the gut, and addressing the other infections because if you have C diff I'll be putting money on that you have other infections as well.

Melissa says, "Parasites? I'm about Texas, exposed to a lot of things. Yeah, parasites are really common. There's a lot of different parasites that you can get. I see it all the time, you don't need to travel or go to a foreign country to get parasites. You can get them anywhere. People are always traveling internationally these days. People pass these things to each other. And if you're handling pets, then you're probably getting exposed to tick borne illness, [Bartonella henselae 00:13:32], that sort of thing. It's, like 50% of household pets carry a lot of these parasites and bacterial infections. So those things will need to be addressed as well. Because if you're handling a lot of pets, you're definitely getting exposed to all kinds of things. So it's really, really extra important for you, Melissa to really boost your immune system. Get the body functioning properly, so you can fight off a lot of those things you're actually getting exposed to.

Guys, let me know... These are really good questions. I love them. So let me know if you guys have any other questions. And then Melissa says, "I see a clinical nutritionist in my area, labs with saliva testing on compounded hormones, compounded thyroid."

So what you want is the GI-MAP. It's going to be the best test for assessing parasitic infections, and it's really the Rolls Royce or I guess the Cadillac. I don't know anything about cars, tell me, is a Rolls Royce better than a Cadillac? Or is a Cadillac better than a Rolls Royce? I'd love to know. But it's kind of like the best test you can get for GI infections. It'll tell you pretty much all of them, but it won't tell you about like Bartonella henselae, all the lime co-infections. It won't tell you those things. But definitely you want to do hair metal analysis testing, metal testing, GI-MAP. Those are my flagship tests. I only do hormone testing, in the case of really severe hormonal imbalances because honestly guys, if you just do a hormone test and try to treat hormones as supplements, you probably won't get any results at all, and you'll be wasting your money. Hormones are superficial, you got to dig deeper. You got to like figure out why the hormones are out of whack.

This is a good one. I started getting sick when I moved into a new place. I started getting chronic congestion, tingling in my arms, and insomnia. The other day, I found black mold in the bathroom behind the toilet and throughout the basement. Could this be making me sick? How do I know? How do I recover?

So apparently, I learned this the other day, over 50% of homes in North America are mold infested. They have black mold. So a lot of us are getting exposed to mold. Absolutely. Whether it actually is an issue, whether it actually makes you sick has to do with the landscape, right? Like how many other things are affecting your health. Now, if you're a really healthy, robust person, strong immune system, like good mineral balance, not getting exposed to a lot of toxins, detoxing regularly, eating a healthy diet, sleeping like a boss, you're probably may not actually be affected by that mold. But if you're someone who has other infections, you're eating a shitty diet, not sleeping very well, you've got lots of metal toxicity, lots of chemical toxicity, well, yeah, that mold is going to be another layer of stress.

So, unfortunately, you can't really help if you do have more toxicity, if you are getting mycotoxins illness from being exposed to mold, you will not be able to get healthy while still living in that house. That's really unfortunate. It's the honest truth, and it's probably not what you want to hear, and it's probably not the most economical thing for me to tell you, but that is the honest truth. If you have mold illness, and you're getting exposed to mold, you have to get out of that house, you have to move. It could potentially be remediated, but you shouldn't be the one to do it. That should be done by an expert. And a lot of times the issue is quite systemic, and it's really hard to get it out.

So, you will need to probably move. Hopefully this isn't a place that you just bought, hopefully this is a place you're renting, you can definitely take this up with your landlords. I have a member in my group who took her landlord support over having extreme mold in her house, it was all through her pipes and her drinking water, it was pretty bad. But once you get out of the mold infested environment, what you need to do is you need to bind it. That's the most important thing, is you need to just find bind bind bind bind.

My current favorite supplement for binding is from Microbe Formulas, it's called Bio Tox, really, really good for binding up organisms and mold and microbes. I see really good results with that. You can also work with clays, like bentonite clay and charcoal, but it does bind to everything, it takes the good with the bad, so you need to cycle it on and off. I wouldn't have anyone taking charcoal for more than three days in a row and then taking two weeks off, just because it will pull minerals out of your body. But I love the Bio Tox because it doesn't actually do that. So that's a really good strategy.

Now, how do you know if this is an issue? So a really good screening test. Now this isn't a mold test, this is a screening test for mycotoxins. Mycotoxins can be from other things beyond mold that can be from Lyme disease and other things. But it's called the VCs test. It's a $15 test. If you just Google VCs mold toxicity, it'll be one of the first search results that come up. And it's, like I said, it's like $15, and you're basically assessing contrast, your ability to differentiate varying levels of contrast. Contrast is just... I learned this the other day because I'm learning about photo editing. But it's basically like, if you looked at something that was black and white, that would have really high contrast. Because the black... they're like opposites, black and white are opposites, versus if it was like a light green with light brown, that would be less contrast, because they're more similar, the colors are more similar.

Hope that makes sense. But basically it that's what the test assess is for, and it's a screening tool. My advice would be, when you do it, you need to be... I believe it's 18 inches from the screen, and of course when you can't see something properly when the contrast is a bit fuzzy, your tendency is to sort of lean in, but you don't want to lean in, that can make the test totally invalid. So my advice would be to take a measuring tape or ruler, and make sure you're always at 19 or 18 inches, whatever it is from the screen, and be very aware of not allowing yourself to lean in, to try to see the contrast.

All right. Ellen says Rolls Royce is high end. Good to know. Okay.

Awesome. Okay, guys. I hope that helps. And then the last question that was submitted and guys, all you guys who are hanging out with me on Facebook Live, throw your questions in, into the comments because it's a little bit delayed from when I see the comment, and you submit it, so I just want to make sure I get it and I answer your question before I log off today. But the other question is, how to know how high above range your yeast is.

So in my son's case, he was at Candida SPP, he was just being subspecies. So she's referring to the GI-MAP test. He was at 9.82 x 10 to the power of 10, and albicans was 1.01 x 10 to the power three. I was told by one interpreter that these numbers equal at least 20 times higher than the upper limit, and albicans two times higher than the upper limit. Well, another interpreter told me it was 100 times the upper limit. Can you tell me which is accurate? I actually don't know, but it doesn't matter, because both ways it's there, its present.

Anything on the GI-MAP that is in fact a pathogen, you want it to be below detectable levels. So you want it to have that little like sideways triangle thing with dl, which means below detectable level. So even if it's not getting flagged high by the lab, you still want to address it, it still needs to be addressed because it means it's present. It's an overgrowth. So it is an issue. So I don't know what's correct, 20 or hundred times, it doesn't really matter, the point is, your son, he needs a Candida protocol. He needs an anti yeast protocol, and you need to follow up with pre testing and you want to get it down to below detectable level.

All right, guys, let me know if you have other questions. The final question, which I've kind of already discussed this, but I just want to make sure it gets addressed. The final question was, is it okay to take activated charcoal every day? And if you can remember what I said earlier I said no, because it pulls everything. It takes the good with the bad. It pulls the minerals, and we don't want to take things that pull minerals because most of us are mineral deficient. So you need to cycle activated charcoal on and off. Three days on, you can take it two to three grams, two to three times a day on an empty stomach. Do make sure you take it away from medication because it binds to everything including your meds. So if you're taking a thyroid med, you want to make sure that you're not binding it up, and then take two weeks off, so three days on, two weeks off, that's how you should utilize activated charcoal.

Ellen says, "I don't really believe in taking silver, but it's part of my desbio lime treatment. I'm on day 34 of 60, what follow would you expect?

So if it's good... I learned this from a herbalist not that long ago, that if it's good, like colonial silver, and it's made properly, it doesn't actually get absorbed into the body. Now, with silver from what I've learned is that yeah, it's not a good long term strategy. From a short term perspective, so I'd say 60 days falls into that short term window, you're probably fine. Would I take it for a year straight? No. Would I take it for 120 days? Probably not. But I think 60 days technically falls into that short term window. So I think you're fine. And if it's good silver, and it's made properly, then it shouldn't actually affect the other minerals.

Bentonite clay, Ellen, is the exact same as activated charcoal, it binds to all the good and all the bad, so it will bind to minerals. So again, I would cycle it in the exact same way. Binders that don't do that; so Pectin LC, this is the binder that I talk about a lot. It is modified citrus pectin, lots of good research behind it. It's modified in such a way so that it binds to the crap, the metals, the toxins, the chemicals, but it will not actually bind to the minerals. And I like ecoNugenics or Clinical Synergy. Only two brands that I recommend because we know that they have actually modified it properly.

That's really good. Also the Microbe Formulas. I've been using their products more. They have the Bio Tox, which is good for microbes and lime. They have the MetChem, which is good for metals, and then they had the foundation which is just kind of an overall binder. Now those, from what they've told me, do not bind to mineral. So I actually work with those as well, and I'm working with them more and more because I really like those products. All right, guys.

Okay, so thank you so much. I hope this was helpful. Remember that I do this the last Tuesday of every month. So if you've got questions for me, you can either hop on Facebook Live with me, the last Tuesday of May at 4:00pm Pacific, or you can always submit your questions in advance by emailing my assistant, Or you can always send a Facebook message to my Facebook page, Kendra Perry Nutrition, and we'll make sure that gets added to the list for next month's q&a.

Otherwise, guys, I will see you in a week. Next Tuesday I'll be on again, I have no idea what we'll be talking about, but I'm sure it's going to be good. So tune in on Facebook Live or subscribe to the HIGH on Energy Podcast, on any of your favorite podcast app if you want to listen to me in your car or on your run.

Alright guys, have a good day. Take care.

Why Magnesium is Optimal for Your Health



If minerals were compared to a high school popularity contest, magnesium would be the prom queen of minerals. Many people know about magnesium, but do you really know why magnesium is THE mineral for optimal health? In this episode, I will discuss the many roles that magnesium plays on the body including helping to reduce inflammation and relax our muscles, and it’s role on the heart. I will also provide the main signs that indicate you may be deficient in magnesium (like pellet poops and being cranky AF) and WHY you might be deficient. Plus I will review my top 5 favourite magnesium rich foods…dark chocolate being one of them (in moderation of course) as well as ways to supplement magnesium. Think you might have a magnesium deficiency? I will let you in on a secret about blood testing for magnesium and why it’s not as effective as other tests.  Find out in this episode why magnesium is the optimal mineral for your health and your body.

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Hey everyone, how's it going. Kendra here. So excited to be here as always. Welcome to a another episode of HIGH on Energy. Today we are going to talk about a very popular and trendy mineral. Magnesium has all the friends. Everyone loves magnesium. I think it's probably the mineral that out of all the minerals does seem to have the most attention around it. People seem to know the most about it, right?

We're going to be talking a little bit today about is magnesium really all it's cracked up to be? Is it really the miracle mineral that everyone actually thinks it is? Guys, if you want to hang out with me on Facebook Live, I do this every single Tuesday at 4:00 PM on Tuesdays and the last Tuesday of the month, that's going to be next week guys, we do a lot Q&A's. You can tune in, you can ask me questions. You can submit any questions you might have to support at My assistant will gladly help you with that. I'll make sure to answer all your questions on air.

Those Q&A's are always super fun. We always have lots of great questions. I go through lots of topics, lots of good information. That is going to happen. At the 30th I believe, which is a day after my birthday, I actually turn 35 next week. If you guys are on the podcast, if you guys make sure to subscribe on iTunes and pretty much anywhere you can listen to your podcast, all your favorite podcast apps, that's where you can catch up with me if you don't like to listen to me or watch me on video.

So, guys, let's jump into today's topic. Let me know if you're on with me live right now. I'm actually using a different streaming software right now. I would love to know is it actually working? I actually had trouble the last time that I used the software. So, just let me know guys, if you are on live right now, just let me know in the comments that you can see me and hear me. I'm going to otherwise keep on rolling.

So, guys, we were talking about magnesium today. Like I said, if it was a popularity contest for minerals, magnesium would be the prom queen or the prom king, whatever. Magnesium is definitely the mineral that people seem to have the most awareness around. Most people know magnesium is important, they are aware that maybe they should be taking magnesium. They want to know how do I actually take magnesium? That's what we're going to be going through today.

So, guys, let's talk a little bit about what magnesium's role is in the body. Magnesium is actually incredibly important. It's popular for a reason. It's homecoming queen for a reason. It's because it's needed for over 500 different enzyme reactions in the body. That's a lot, right. Pretty much anytime there's a reaction in the body, there's a good chance that magnesium is involved, and especially with the production of energy.

Not just talking about the energy that you feel on a day to day basis, I'm talking about energy as fuel. Like putting gasoline into a vehicle, even just to blink your eyelids, to move your fingers, to write something down, to go to sleep at night, all these things pretty much anytime anything is happening in your body and something is always happening in your body, your body needs fuel. Magnesium is actually always involved in that fuel production. The fuel is called ATP.

Anytime energy or ATP is produced in the body, magnesium is involved in that. Magnesium is also really important in the regulation of sugar, of blood sugar. People who have diabetes, metabolic syndrome, maybe reactive hypoglycemia, or other blood sugar issues tend to have issues with magnesium. It's really important for the permeability among the cells. Permeability just refers to movement of processed cells. If you've had low permeability, it'd be really hard to get things across the cell into the cell versus if you had leaky or excessive permeability, things would just be leaking all over. You'd just be dripping shit this way and that way.

We want to have good cellular permeability and magnesium is important for that. Magnesium is your main calming and relaxing muscle or muscle mineral. Basically, it helps relax the muscles, but it also helps keep you calm. If you're feeling really anxious and panicky, and super fucking angry, there's a good chance that there might be a magnesium issue going on there. Magnesium is also really important for reducing inflammation and it is the primary heart mineral. So, does regulate the heart.

Guys, if you're on with the live right now and you want to ask me any questions, just let me know. I'm always happy to answer your questions. If you're listening to me on the podcast right now, you actually want to engage with me in live time and ask me questions and have me respond to you and say, hey to you, definitely hop on Facebook Live Tuesdays at 4:00 PM to do that.

So, guys, the thing about magnesium and probably why its gotten so much attention these days is because many people are at risk or are deficient in magnesium. For example, I always bring this back to mineral balancing and hair mineral analysis testing because that's my jam. But basically, we fall into two metabolic categories. Some of us are fast metabolizers and some of us are slow. We do tend to have a genetic tendency, one way or the other.

Now, what tends to happen in a lot of people these days because of all the crazy shit going on in our world, like chemicals and metals and stress and all this shit that's going on, what happens is people go excessively fast or they go excessively slow. Instead of maintaining balance and fast isn't better than slow and slow is not better than fast, we want balance, they go excessive in one way or the other.

Now, when people get excessively fast, their sodium and potassium levels tend to go up. That actually greatly increases the burn rate of magnesium. So, tends to just burn the magnesium out. The excessively fast oxidizers, they tend to be really panicky, they are go, go, go, they're wired all the time, they have a really hard time bringing it down. They're just like up here, when really they wish they're a little bit more down here. They're like the zero to 100 types of people.

When you get excessively slow, magnesium tends to build up in a bioavailable manner. You tend to have lower sodium and potassium and slow oxidation, and that leads to the bioavailable buildup of magnesium. So, slow oxidizers do tend to have a lot of magnesium in the body, but it's not necessarily usable or available. That's obviously a really big issue. The big problem with magnesium deficiency and oxidation rates in the way that all the crap that's happening in our society today, is if you go too fast in one way or too slow in the other, you'll have magnesium deficiency just in a little bit of a different way.

How would you feel if you were magnesium deficient? Well, you'd probably have irregular heartbeat. Because remember, magnesium is the primary heart mineral. You might have heart palpitations or feel like your heart is skipping a beat. You may have want to pain and achiness because it relaxes the muscle, keeps the muscle and joints healthy. You may be very stiff, you may not move well, you may just have muscle cramps. You also may have a lot of muscle twitches. Maybe your eye lash or eye lid flutters and drives you crazy. Maybe you can watch something pulsating or twitching. Really, really good indication that there's a magnesium issue.

You may also have high blood pressure. People who have high blood pressure tend to have issues with magnesium either being low or it being bio unavailable, meaning they can't actually access it or utilize it. We've talked a little bit about anxiety and panic, but that can definitely be involved. They will tend to have sleep issues. I would say if you're an insomniac, especially if you're feeling really wired at night or you're waking up frequently in the night, there's a good chance that there's a magnesium issue. We may also have bowel issues because magnesium helps relax and regulate the bowel. People with magnesium deficiency they may be really blocked up, really constipated, they have those super hard little pellet poops that they could shoot out of a gun and kill someone.

That might be what's happening with poops. Those are the not fun poops. There may be some depression issue, you could also have memory loss or memory issues. A lot can definitely be going on when you have magnesium issues. This is why a lot of people look to taking magnesium when they have some of these issues because there is a lot of information out there that a lot of people do have magnesium issues.

The problem is, is a lot of people want to know well, how do I actually test my magnesium status? Most of the time people are getting tested through blood testing. If you've been following for a while, if you listen to this podcast, you know that blood testing isn't always the best for certain things. The problem with blood testing for magnesium or running something like an RBC magnesium is that magnesium is actually an intracellular mineral. It exists in the cell above 99%.

When you're looking at blood levels of magnesium, you're really only looking at the 1%. I don't actually think we can take a lot of insight from looking at blood magnesium levels because it's only representing such a strong portion, or such a small portion of magnesium levels in the body. It's not really representative of what could be actually going on in the body in terms of magnesium. Personally, you know I love hair mineral analysis testing. This is the flagship tests that we run in my HIGH on Energy membership. This gets run with every single client I work with.

I think that's the most important way. But you actually can get some information from blood chemistry if your RBC magnesium or your blood magnesium is high. So, think about this. What would it mean if magnesium was high in the blood? Well, we have magnesium, it's an intracellular mineral. We want it to be high in the cell, not in the blood. If it's high in the blood, that's actually a big issue. That really indicates some serious dysfunction and something that is very wrong.

What that can mean is that you're starting to lose magnesium from yourself, or your body is having a really hard time getting magnesium into the cell so it's floating around the blood and you're getting what's called cellular magnesium loss. Eventually, as your magnesium stores go down, as your magnesium levels go down, that may no longer show high in the blood because you just don't get much, you're bottomed out. You just don't have it anymore.

That's one of the information you can get from blood chemistry. If it's low, it could indicate low cellular magnesium, but you'd always want to confirm with mineral testing. If it's normal, it doesn't mean it's normal, but if it's high, it actually could indicate a more severe magnesium loss and that is something to pay attention to.

Let's talk a little bit about foods. Where can you actually get magnesium? There's some foods that are high in magnesium. Typically, your dark leafy greens are quite high magnesium foods. Those are really good. Avocados, raspberries, green beans. You guys are all going to love me for this, but dark chocolate, yum, put that in my face, that can be really, really good for increasing magnesium. Obviously you don't want to go too crazy remembering that dark chocolate has a bit of sugar in it and it has caffeine. So, don't go overboard on the chocolate but you can get some magnesium from chocolate.

Another great place to get magnesium from and what I think is probably one of the better places is through pink salt. So, pink Himalayan salt does contain all the minerals, but it does tend to be a little bit heavier on the magnesium. You can do pink salt. That can be a really good way to get salt or magnesium into your life.

Let's talk about magnesium supplementation. I would say, the issue with most high quality magnesium supplements is even the best quality ones, even the ones from the best brands, the most expensive ones, you're still going to lose quite a bit through the gut. A lot of magnesium just leaks out into the gut and doesn't actually get to the cell.

You really have to be careful with the form of magnesium you're taking. Do not go out and take magnesium sulfate. Don't take magnesium citrate. If you're constipated, and you want to poop. Sure, go take those, they'll make you poop, but they're not actually going to get magnesium into yourself because they're poorly absorbed. They just get dumped into the gut. It relaxes your colon and gives you diarrhea. If you're going to take supplemental magnesium, there's three kinds, well there's four kinds actually that I recommend. There is Malate, glycinate, bi-glycinate, and threonate.

The first three; malate, glycinate, and bi-glycinate, you'd want to take one of those. Now, personally, there is one magnesium out there that I really really love. It's from a company called Jigsaw Health. This is the one I'm pretty much recommending to all my members. I really like, it's called [withSRT 00:13:27] I like to B-Free version. It's basically a time released magnesium Malate.

Now, I really like this and I find people tend to tolerate it better because it time releases over eight hours rather than just getting old dumped at once into the bowel and getting lost. I find it helps people support their magnesium levels better and people don't tend to get the diarrhea and loose poops from it because some people in general just have poor bowel tolerance to magnesium. They just tend to take magnesium and get the shits.

With the time release Jigsaw, SRT magnesium, it just tends to be better tolerated so people tend to have less of that reaction. I really do like that one. But any [inaudible 00:14:14] I like designs for health, malate, glycinate, bi-glycinate. Those are all good options if your bowel tolerance isn't affected by those.

Now, threonate is a bit of a different type of magnesium. Threonate is the only type of magnesium that actually crosses the blood brain barrier. This is actually a really good magnesium to take if you have brain issues. Maybe you have memory issues and you have sleep issues, you have really severe insomnia. Maybe you have a brain condition like multiple sclerosis, MS. These are all things that might benefit from that type of magnesium. If you have depression, anxiety, I would experiment with taking some magnesium threonate.

I love Designs for Health. It's called NeuroMag, and you can do two of those in the morning and one at night or vice versa. That can be really helpful for those things because it gets into the brain whereas the other menus it doesn't really get in there. But overall, if you're on a budget and you want to really well absorb from a magnesium, topical magnesium is actually amazing. You can do Epsom salts bath, or you can get a spray.

I love rubbing the magnesium spray on my feet at night. When you rub it on your feet, it actually gets directly into the bloodstream, and that's really awesome. In terms of magnesium spray, something to keep in mind is, if it's low quality, it's going to make you itchy as fuck. It's just going to irritate your skin, it's going to hurt. You put it on a cut, you're going to hate yourself and it's going to be really uncomfortable. You do want to get a good one. I like Ease, E-A-S-E from Activation Products, that's probably my favorite. And then if you're in Canada, Now Foods makes a magnesium spray that is also very good. You just have to be careful.

You have a magnesium spray and you've tried it and it really aggravated your skin, well, you probably want to try something different. How much did you actually take? Now, this really depends. But the sort of generic recommendation is five times your body weight in pounds in milligrams. Let's say you weigh 200 pounds, then you're going to do 200 times five, which is 1000 in milligrams. You take 1000 milligrams of magnesium a day. You probably want to do it in divided doses or you're going to make yourself shit.

If you're taking 1000, you probably want to divide it into three doses. You can divide it to two, but you might want to experiment with that a little bit. If it gives you lose poops, then you're going to want to divide it out or you may actually have to reduce your dose and top it up with some of the topical magnesium.

But as you know, I think mineral testing is always really important. You really want to know where we're at. Typically, I'll give a lower dose of magnesium to slow oxidizers and a higher dose to fast oxidizers. I like to know where people are at. I always do recommend hair mineral analysis testing.

So guys, thank you so much for joining me for this quick episode on magnesium, I hope it was helpful. Guys, if you're listening to me on the podcast and you like what I do and you want to support me, the best way you can actually do that is to take five minutes and leave me a review on iTunes. Give me a five star review. Tell me how much you love the podcast, and that actually helps me get in front of more people. If you think this information is important, that is how you can help me spread the word. I would appreciate it so much, guys.

If you're following me on YouTube, if you're watching this on YouTube, make sure to subscribe to my channel so you get notified when I post my video every single Thursday. All right guys, thank you so much for hanging out with me. I will see you next Tuesday for the live Q&A. If you have questions, submit them to and I will definitely answer them on air next week.

Building an Engaged Facebook Community that Loves You with Joanna Novelo



Have you ever wondered how to grow your sales with Facebook groups? Facebook groups allow you to be your authentic self and show up each and every day to your followers. In this episode, Joanna Novelo will dive into Facebook groups, share why having quality of members is sometimes better than the amount of Facebook members, and how to engage with the people in your Facebook group. We also discussed how your involvement and engagement in your Facebook group can help grow your followers and lead to increased sales. 

With a life’s mission to invoke the same feelings that Walt Disney has for people….It’s certainly no surprise that Joanna Novelo wears a shining cape when it comes to bringing out the best in others. Joanna is an expert in community building and management as well as customer service, account management, CRM set up and management, and social media strategy. If Joanna could sum it all up in one sentence this is what she would say, “My fulfillment in life comes from seeing others transform, win, and I love being a part of that.” Her only flaw is that she feels responsible when people get thrown off their path: because, ultimately it’s imprinted in her DNA to make sure people have a good time.

Oh and did we mention that you considers herself an unofficial GIF consultant. Yea..we thought that was pretty cool too.

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Kendra Perry: Hey, hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I am your host, Kendra Perry, and sadly, I am without my lovely, beautiful cohost, Christine. Right now, she is with her little one. So, you guys are just going to have to hang out with me today, but luckily, I have a pretty awesome guest with us on today who I am really, really excited to hang out with. Our paths have kind of been crossing on and off over the past few years, and when it comes to building an online community, which is pretty important these days if you want to be successful in your health coaching business. She is the expert. I was actually in a Facebook group where she was the community manager. It was probably a couple years ago now, and I just remember her being so fun, so many GIFs, loved all the GIFs. She definitely was a GIF inspiration for me because, now, that's how I run my groups, with a ton of ridiculous GIFs, and just to give you guys a little bit more background on [Joanna 00:01:04], her life's mission is to invoke the same feeling that Walt Disney has for people.

Kendra Perry: It's certainly no surprise that Joanna wears a shining cape when it comes to bringing on the best of others. She is an expert in community building and management as well as customer service, account management, CRM setup and management, and social media strategy, so lots of great skills there. If Joanna could sum it up all in one sentence, this I what she'd say, "My fulfillment in life comes from seeing others transform, win, and I love being a part of that." Her only flaw is that she feels responsible when people get thrown off their path because, ultimately, it's imprinted in her DNA to make sure people have a good time. That is a fantastic bio, Joanna. Welcome. Thank you so much for being here.

Joanna: Thank you for having me, Kendra.

Kendra Perry: That is awesome, and right before we hopped on to record today, I was actually creeping on your Facebook group, and what I saw on your Facebook ... or not your Facebook group, your Facebook page, and what I saw was "GIF consultant." And I was like, "Yes. She totally is the GIF consultant. I love it." I love it.

Joanna: Yeah. I'm going to make it a real profession.

Kendra Perry: I think it needs to be a real profession. I love that you use so many GIFs, and you had so much humor when we were in the funnel playground together, and when I run my groups, we have a lot alike. I'm in the health coaching industry. So, we have a lot of really sick people who are in really dark places, and I like to keep the mood light, and once you kind of set the stage for [inaudible 00:02:28], everybody gets into it, right?

Joanna: They do.

Kendra Perry: Awesome. So, I would love if you could just tell me a little bit about how you ended up as a community manager expert, being kind of the expert in Facebook groups. I would love to know how you got from A to B.

Joanna: Yeah. So, it's really funny. A to B, actually, the vehicle that I used to get there was GIFs. So, it's a super funny story, and it started in the group that we were in together. So, I started out working for Lindsay Padilla, and she just gave me the space to do whatever I wanted in her business, and she was like, "Oh, does that sound good? Here take this course. Let's do this." So, I was kind of just hopping around, and she said, "Hey. So, we have this group called Funnel Playground, and we just need some help with it." And Emily Hirsh gave me the space to just play around and have fun in there, and it actually ended up being the thing that stuck, and so, it kind of just went one right after the other. I ended up being in someone else's group, and they asked me if I wanted to manage their community as well, and then, that one led to another, which led to another, and yeah.

Kendra Perry: And here you are.

Joanna: And here we are.

Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I mean, I just love that because that membership with Emily and Lindsay was so fun, and I mean, that's definitely what they were doing for, but it was like marketing and funnels doesn't seem that fun, but it really was fun, and I just love the energy that you brought to that group. You were just on every post, commenting with something funny, with emojis, with GIFs, and it really kind of made maybe what would have been a dry topic just really funny and lots of laughs.

Joanna: Exactly. Yep.

Kendra Perry: Awesome. So, I want to start from the very beginning here because I actually get this question a lot. A lot of people seem to be confused between the difference between a Facebook page and a Facebook group. Can you just briefly explain the difference so we can kind of set the stage? And then, we'll hop into community and Facebook groups in a little more detail.

Joanna: Sure. So, this is just kind of how I picture it in my mind. A Facebook page is kind of like your billboard. It's like your advertisement. That's where people who are just coming in off of the sidewalk are seeing you, and then, they're finding out about you. The Facebook group is actually where they've come inside, and they've sat down.

Kendra Perry: Oh, okay. I like that.

Joanna: And then, that's where you get to have deeper conversations with them. So, it's kind of like stage one, just your advertising, and then, stage two is they're coming inside, they're having a seat, and they're opening up conversations.

Kendra Perry: Okay. Yeah. That's really cool. So, it would probably be pretty hard to get a lot of engagement or build a community just based off of your Facebook page, probably just wouldn't happen, hey?

Joanna: Yeah. If you're able to volleyball back and forth with conversations with people, they'll follow your page. They'll follow your group, and they will engage in both.

Kendra Perry: Okay. That's very cool. Okay. So, let's talk about some of the different types of Facebook groups because I know there's not just one type or maybe one reason why you would use one.

Joanna: Sure. Okay. So, there are several different types. I would say as far as purpose, it's split into two. It's either that you're promising to move someone from point A to point B, which is actually the overarching of any group, is you're supposed to connect for some reason. So, that's the overarching reason of any group, and then, there are some where it's like a program where you're moving from along this journey to get a desired result, or you're networking, and so, you're just in there to meet other people. And there's such a huge variety because it can be people who sell quilts. They're in there to network with other people. Whatever it is, it's just about connection. So, then, you get into what is the purpose of the group. How is it supposed to serve you? So, if you are launching a product, is it just a container there for you to build the buzz, to build the hype, and then, there's an endpoint for that, right? And then, they might move into a paid group.

Joanna: So, with each one of these types of groups, there's different rules, and there's different cultures and vibes that are going on in these communities, and so, oftentimes, what shapes it the most is how much of an investment they're putting into it. So, you might have a free group, which is where people are just coming to learn about you to open up conversations, and we'll get into this later, but a free group is, it's the starting point of everything and where the conversation ... You've been out on social media talking, and now, they come in, and they're like, "Okay. Yeah. Let's talk." So, the free group is a place for people to bridge that gap. Then, you might have a paid membership group, and then, you might have a premium mastermind type group. And then, there's other types of launches like JV Launches. If you're launching for someone else, there's totally different rules and things around that, and then, just giving somebody a place to connect. So, for some people, and this is cool. It's cool. Sometimes, there's secret societies, private groups, where they might curate 20 to 50 people, and they're just in there to connect with each other, right?

Kendra Perry: Awesome. Okay. That's awesome. I really love that. I love the idea of kind of you can almost move people through this journey of Facebook groups from off your page into your free into your mid-level membership, and then, maybe some, yeah, premium mastermind sort of thing. Okay. So, let's talk a little bit about free groups because I know a lot of our people, they want to get clients, and they're trying to come up with ways to build that trust, build that trust, build that like and trust factor with their people, and I do know a lot of them are trying to leverage Facebook groups, but a lot of people, I feel like the biggest thing, and you probably hear this all the time, too, is that how do I get engagement. And I had this experience when I had a free group, too. It was so hard to get that engagement, to get more than just me posting in the group, right? So, why do you think it's so hard to get engagement in a free group, and do you have any tips and tricks for how to maybe improve that?

Joanna: Oh, my gosh. Yes. So, all the pieces of the puzzle are right in front of you. It's just that maybe people don't know that, that's a piece of the puzzle or what they should be looking at. So, first of all, the tone that you use in your group is different from what you use on your social media. I also have this totally radical idea that people are killing themselves to create social media content and then giving the leftovers to their group when, actually, if they just went into their group and started conversations, the social media would come out of that, and social media gets the leftovers, not your group. So, your group is not responding because they got leftovers. It's the same thing that you posted out on your personal page, and it's the same thing you posted on Instagram. So, if I were actually to flip it, and I was in your community, and I contributed to that conversation, and I saw it happen in real time, and then, if I follow you on Instagram, I see that you listened to me, number one. You listened to me, and then, you took that, and then, you put it on your Instagram, you're shining a light on your community.

Joanna: So, you're creating a raving fan out of that, and then, you're showing people out on social media what they're missing inside of your group. And then, you're driving traffic to the group because, "Hey, that's a killer conversation that came out of there. I identify with that." And you know why they'll identify with it is because it came from one of their potential peers in your group. You didn't create it. It's not from your mouth. It's from the mouths of somebody else in the group. So, they'll identify with it. So, the biggest reason people aren't getting engagement is because they know that they're getting leftovers, which is just an easy switch. Just switch it, and that just comes down to creating conversations. So, Facebook gives you tools that help you to understand what people want to talk about and what people find interesting. So, the biggest thing you can use is ... You know when you're inside your group, and you can click on someone's profile, and then, it pulls up that running scorecard of all the things they commented on, all the things that they've liked? Do you know what I'm talking about?

Kendra Perry: Yep. Totally. Are you talking about the insights tool?

Joanna: No. So, it's actually if you're just inside the group in the discussion, if you were to click on someone's name, it would pull up, "Oh, this is when they joined. This is the last comment that they left." So, you can actually see. Facebook actually took all their activity and put it into a little scorecard that all you have to do is click on, and you can actually see what that person likes, literally.

Kendra Perry: Interesting.

Joanna: I can see the comments that they're liking, and if I can see a pattern there, I can create something out of that.

Kendra Perry: Oh, I love that. That is so personalized, which is so fantastic, and I love what you're saying about creating this conversation. The way to get people engaged is to create an actual conversation instead of just ... I think maybe a mistake people make is they're just trying to educate, but they're putting a post into a group that don't really drive conversation or ask people a question. There's no reason to engage. It's just like, "This is this, and this is why you should do this," and it's like, "Okay. Great. I got that. I don't need to say anything more." Right?

Joanna: Yeah. Yeah. And so, actually the easiest way to create content for your group is through sales conversations that you're having. So, the biggest objections that you're getting, you don't even have to create any of this content. You would just take your sales calls and be like, "What did they object about this?" And then, you go to the group, and you educate your group on why that's not a thing. So, then, you're slapping down your objections for the future, but you're also teaching them because that was something they came to the call, and they were misunderstood about, right?

Kendra Perry: Yeah.

Joanna: So, you take it back to the community. You teach them how to not be this person, and there's your content, and then, the conversation will take off from there.

Kendra Perry: Yeah. I love that. I think you can get so much content from sales calls, sometimes, just having Post-Its. I literally will post it, post it, post it. My company is just covered in Post-Its with all these questions that people ask, and not only is that great for your group, but it's great for everything. It's great for your sales copy, on your sales page. It's great for your email marketing, just seeing ... because there's going to be a lot of overlap, typically, with those questions that people are asking, right?

Joanna: Exactly. So, there's no reason to reinvent the wheel. Whatever reason people feel, and people will always say that free groups take the most time, and it's not. I mean, I would just put up a post about an objection I got in a sales call, and I would let the conversation develop out of that.

Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I love that you bring that up because I hear that, too. It's so much work. It's like an extra social media platform, and definitely, I think people need to really embrace the repurposing of content idea across all platforms, right? We shouldn't be reinventing the wheel, but I love what you're saying about groups, or it can just be so simple, and you don't need to put this huge post with this beautiful graphic and all these hundreds of points on why something is helpful, but you could really just ask people a simple question that might relate to something that they're going through, and that's going to get way more engagement, right?

Joanna: Exactly. Yeah. Because if you're doing the other, you're preaching to them rather than asking them, "What do you want?"

Kendra Perry: Yeah. So, it's probably better to get more on their level, right? We don't want to be standing above them talking down to them. We want to be sitting on the exact same level with them, talking to them, person to person, like friends or acquaintances sort of thing.

Joanna: Yeah. So, some of the most successful group owners are the ones that are willing to get out and mingle.

Kendra Perry: Mingle. I love it.

Joanna: Yeah, which is why Lindsay does really well. She will always beat anyone in an organic form because she's down talking with the people.

Kendra Perry: Totally. Yeah, and I love that you say that because I was just at Social Media Marketing World, and definitely, one of the themes at that conference was like, "Talk to people. Have real conversations." If you want to try something new, ask people if they want it, and then, create it based off of the feedback that you get, which is so much of Lindsay's perspective. I love Lindsay, too. I'm in her Building a Better Beta course about courses, and it's so much about create based off of what people are telling you and what they're asking for, which is very simple but very genius, right?

Joanna: Yeah. It's very back to basics.

Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I love that. It's kind of like that full circle of online marketing, right?

Joanna: Yeah.

Kendra Perry: Cool. Okay. So, I would love to know, do you have any strategies that you use for starting a Facebook group to maybe start it off on the right foot instead of kind of starting a group, having their be crickets, and then, sometimes, I'll see people just adding people in without their permission and just kind of forcing people into a group to try to make it happen. Is there a better way to kind of start that group off on the right foot so people are coming in engaged? Do you have any strategies for that?

Joanna: Yeah. So, it comes down to the purpose of your group because a lot of times, the purpose of the group is tied to how many members you're trying to recruit for it. If it's super high mastermind, you're obviously going to keep your numbers low. If you're trying to grow a free group, you're probably going to want to keep your numbers high. You're shooting for high numbers. Okay. So, that's the defining factor on how many members should I have because everyone always thinks, "As many as I can get." So, it depends on the purpose of what you're trying to do. So, everyone always thinks, for a free group, it's as many as I can get, and I'm a failure until I get at least 1000 members. For some reason, the gold standard is 1000 members like, "I've kind of made it when I hit 1000."

Joanna: So, the quality of the people that you add into your group is going to affect the quality of the output of the group. A lot of times, people, just for numbers, will add in the people that don't want to be there, and then, they're not engaging, and then, they're like, "Well, why is my group not engaging?" Well, they didn't come there to engage. They came there just to support you, and they didn't want to tell you no, but they don't have anything to contribute to the conversation. So, why would they? So, you need an avatar. So, this is what's hilarious about the whole thing. You're out in the sales funnel using this avatar. On Facebook ads, you created an avatar, and then, when you get to the group, which is where the money's at, right? Getting in there, face-to-face, and you accept anybody.

Kendra Perry: I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying.

Joanna: So, you have to stick to the avatar because you probably already, you have an avatar worksheet, right? So, you know this is the person that I'm looking for, but for some reason, when they show up in real life, like adding or requesting to join a group, people totally lose sight of what they're trying to do here. So, you have to stay in alignment. If you want people to have conversations in your group that mean something, not just basic conversation ... Do you like paperback, or do you like hardback books? Right? Real conversation. You need to stick to the avatar that you started with at the beginning of the funnel, and you're only letting those people in.

Kendra Perry: And so, how can you make sure you're only letting the right types of people into your group?

Joanna: So, you'll go to their profile, and you'll look at this is your avatar come to life. Do they fit the avatar? What things are they talking about? In the health space, are they sharing motivational stuff, or are they sharing memes? You'll see it on the profile, and if you don't, then you don't know what your avatar looks like, which means you need to practice looking at this is who I resonate with.

Kendra Perry: So, it sounds like before you even create a Facebook group, you need to ... and I mean, this comes down ... This is true for so many things. You need to have your ideal client. You need to figure out who that person is and who you're actually talking to. I feel like a lot of health professionals and newer health coaches, they're very resistant to niching down. I think there's a lot of fear around it, and I totally get it because I felt the same fear. You're worried about turning people away, but I really do believe the more specific you can be about who you're helping, the more successful you're going to be in the long run.

Joanna: So, if you're not specific with who you're helping, people don't know how to help you. The way that people who have niche down, the way they got ahead is because people knew how to help them. They knew how to send referrals because, now, I know exactly what you do. They know what things to recommend you for. They know where to tag you, and when you do five separate things, they tag you for nothing. You'd be surprised how much niching down cracks open a network for you.

Kendra Perry: Yeah. I agree, and I think in the end, I help women in their 30s and 40s dealing with fatigue and burnout, but I get dudes coming to me all the time. I have dude clients who just come to me, and they're like, "I know you help women and this, but I really like your videos," and I'm not going to turn them away necessarily. If I have room for a client, and they seem committed, then I'll work with them, right? It doesn't mean that you necessarily turning people away. People need to know how to find you because if you help everyone, really, I think your help no one.

Joanna: Exactly.

Kendra Perry: Cool. Very cool. And so, I feel like some of the maybe struggle that health coaches have specifically with building engagement in a group is that what we're, I guess, the topic that our group is going to be created around sometimes can be very person, right? And maybe people aren't always wanting to engage because they're embarrassed. Maybe they don't want to get on there on a post and talk about their heavy period or their menstrual cramps or their migraines or their loose poops or something like that. Do you have any tips for how to break through and get to those people and help them engage better when maybe there's a bit more of a sensitive topic at play?

Joanna: Yes. So, I want to tell these people that think their topic is so sensitive, nobody's ever going to talk about it that you're not special, and you're not the only one that thinks that because people who deal with groups around recovering alcoholics have the same thing. If you're a money mindset coach, it's the same thing. People don't want to talk about their money in front of other people. Groups about hormones, they get sensitive, and they, "I need to message them." So, this happens a lot, but conversation still happens. It still happens. So, it depends on ... So, conversation is a loaded word. You can have heavy conversation. You can have light conversation. So, when it comes to sensitive topics, we would probably want to have light conversation. Give them an option. So, with every post that we're putting out, we're giving them options because that's how they understand how you want them to respond back. Though, if I'm bringing up a heavy conversation, I will ask for a light response in return, so, "Who here has dah, dah, dah? Yes or no." They can participate, but they don't have to get in detail, and you gave them direction and permission to do that.

Joanna: If you have a light post that you want a heavy response on, so this gets a little tricky, but if you are trying to drive sales for something, you would want to move the conversation into messenger. So, that way, they are opening up, and you are having a sales conversation, removing roadblocks, and this is why it matters that in the group, you're taking these things out, and you're addressing them because then, you get less of these same problems in messenger, right? So, you have the conversation with them, and then, it gets to a point where you say, "I can help you with that." And then, it's a sales conversation. Otherwise, they're not allowed to keep messaging over and over again and getting more of your time. That is very [crosstalk 00:25:13].

Kendra Perry: Yeah. I feel like it's a fine line, right? Some people really do just want free information, whereas other people are serious about speaking with you about a potential working relationship together, and I guess you need to figure out where that fine line is and when to cut it off, and I think a big part of it is you need to be in control. You need to be a leader. You need to be standing in a position of power and not ... teaching people how you want them to engage in your group and being kind of like the knowledgeable leader and not just letting the group kind of create a mind of its own, right?

Joanna: Exactly. So, I work for [Brad Newman 00:25:52] who talks about ... So, this gets into a little bit of a sales conversation here, but it helps because this is where you would draw the line. There is a difference between helping someone, and then, there's a difference with letting them continue to tell their stories. So, their stories are what brought them to the call, and it's the story that's going to send them to your messenger. Do you allow them? And you'll see it clear as day now. Do you allow them to keep telling the story, or do you offer them the solution that they've been waiting for? And then, you take the story that you've been given, and then, you repurpose that within the group so that way, the other people that are telling themselves the stories are now hearing that message.

Kendra Perry: I really, really love that. That's awesome. Yeah. Because I guess we want people to share their stories, but we want them to want a solution, too. We don't want them to be in victim mode and people just not actually ... just wanted to dump stuff on you and not actually wanting a solution or to tell you why it's not possible for them to see success in whatever their issue is, right?

Joanna: Right. It's a disservice to them to not offer a solution.

Kendra Perry: Right. Very cool. Okay. So, let's talk a little bit about different types of ways to post into a group because I know there's all these cool group features that you can use, and what are some of your favorites?

Joanna: So, again, it will always come back to what is the type of group that you have, and we rattled off like seven or eight different types. So, it would depend on ... It's really cool. You can create this world based on the features that they give you, one being the marketplace where you got to set up units. You could also set up a marketplace, and that's where people would network and sell. So, you can really design whatever experience you want with the features they're giving. The most popular one is probably the units.

Kendra Perry: And is that relatively new? I first saw that in Lindsay's course, and I was like, "Wow. This is awesome."

Joanna: It's probably like a year and a half old.

Kendra Perry: Okay. So, I am behind the times.

Joanna: Yeah, and so, it's taken people a while to get used to it, to know how to navigate and to know that it's there or to look for it. So, people are catching on now. So, with units, if people are learning something from you, they're really cool. Also, if you want to map out a journey for them, you could do a first module with an introduction. So, let's say you're in a free group. With free groups, think about when you're added into one how confusing it is, and you have to learn all the posts are out of order, and you don't know who's who. So, units work really well to help organize like, "Hey, if you're new to me, start here," and you can link to your intro video. You can link to, "Here's my freebie if you haven't gotten it yet. Listen to my podcast." So, you would just make these posts, and then, just curate it under that first unit.

Joanna: It's also a really good chance to start linking to sales posts. So, that way, "Hey, I'm meeting you. I'm talking to you." And then, you progress them through. Okay. Some other things, I really love tags, but not all groups have tags. So, on your post, you can categorize things. So, if I'm looking for tomatoes, on the side, I can actually click on the tag called tomatoes, and then, all the posts that have been put up about tomatoes are tagged tomatoes. Facebook [crosstalk 00:29:52]-

Kendra Perry: So, when you say, did you mean in the little menu on the left side, you can have ... or where do tags specifically show up?

Joanna: They're on the right side.

Kendra Perry: The right side. Okay.

Joanna: Yeah. So, where it says invite members, they're usually right under there if you have it, and then, you'll see it on your post. It'll say "add topic" right under your name when you post. So, there's no rule that I know of for why do some groups have tags, why do some not.

Kendra Perry: Yeah. Sometimes, when Facebook rolls things out, it happens really unevenly.

Joanna: It does. Yeah. They don't update previous groups. They just ... Yeah. They do what they want.

Kendra Perry: Okay. I have to see if my groups have that because I love that. Okay. What else?

Joanna: Yeah. The tags are fun, and it makes it really easy for you because if someone says, "Kendra, I'm looking for something on bone health," and then, you have a whole tag for that, all you do is say, hey, on the right side, click on it, and it'll pull up 20 posts.

Kendra Perry: Yeah. That's awesome.

Joanna: [crosstalk 00:30:54] organize for you. Yeah. So, I like going live in groups because even if you don't have everyone on there live, and most people don't show up live.

Kendra Perry: Yeah. Very true.

Joanna: So, you got to get over it. If two people show up, so what? Most people catch the replay, and then, it happens over a couple of days. So, two hours later is not a good time to judge engagement. So, live versus video, what's the difference? It's energy, and they know that you just showed up to be yourself because you have to when you're live. When you're on video, you could always do multiple takes, and you get to choose the version that we get to see, but when you're live, it's you, and it's authentic, and if you made a mistake, so what? We're still rolling.

Kendra Perry: Funny things happen on live video all the time.

Joanna: Exactly. Yeah, but it's always a good shot of energy into the group, and it feels different from video. So, I would say go live at least once a week in your group because it just stirs things up, and when do you do it? It really doesn't matter. I mean, whenever because most people are going to catch the replay anyways.

Kendra Perry: Yeah. Yeah, and I think video is just, it's so powerful these days, and that live video, too, because I think, yeah, another common theme that I hear in the marketing world is people are sick of perfect, curated content. They don't buy from brands. They buy from people, and people want to see your personality. That's how they connect to you. They want to be like, "Oh, wow. This girl's pretty funny. I could be friends with her. I feel like if we met up at a party, we would be instant friends." That's what you want people to feel, right?

Joanna: Yeah. A level of access, and groups give you a level of access that the other platforms don't.

Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I feel like Facebook, with all their new changes rolling out, they are so much about wanting people to have conversations and wanting people to engage and have these meaningful conversations. I feel like that's really what they're pushing their platform towards. So, when you can create that in a group, it's going to do well in the algorithm as well.

Joanna: Yeah.

Kendra Perry: Do you ever use the poll feature? Do you recommend using that to get information from your group? Because that's one of my favorite tools.

Joanna: Yeah. So, polls are also an excellent option when you want to have those heavy conversations, and you just let people click A, B, or C.

Kendra Perry: I find when you do that, a lot of people will respond because it's easy to just check off a box. For my course I have going on right now, I want to know what do people want for support after the course ends, and I think have 60 people in the group, and 40 people responded, which is great. That's a pretty good representation of the entire group, right?

Joanna: It is. It's low involvement for them, but they can still have a voice. I would get creative with polls. I get creative with all the features just to see what can I do, but Brad, in his group, it's about sales. So, when people make sales, they'll ring the bell, and they ring this cowbell. So, we are having on Sunday a quarterly cowbell ceremony where we're honoring the ... We have five awards to give out to people in the group, and so, there's a reason behind it, but loudest cowbell ringer, that's the person that engages the most. So, we are rewarding that person for being so active. So, what we did is we set up five different polls, and we let people vote, and yeah, there were some people that had never engaged in the group that, because they could just click, that was their chance to just say, "Yeah. This is my voice. I'm voting for this one."

Kendra Perry: Very cool.

Joanna: So, if you use a variety of those tools, maybe those people that are so busy that don't have time to engage in your group, a poll allows them to chime in every now and then. Different features can work with different people. Sometimes, people are visual. Sometimes, they're audio. So, I would play with all of them and just get creative.

Kendra Perry: Yeah, and see what people actually want, and I think I love the poll feature for just figuring out what should I be talking about, what topics are you interested in learning about, and then, it's like, "Great. I have the next three coaching call topics."

Joanna: Exactly. Yep.

Kendra Perry: And people may actually show up live.

Joanna: Yeah, and it was low effort by both parties.

Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I love what you said too about just rewarding the engagement. In my paid membership group, I always run contests. We have monthly challenges that help them work towards a goal or create a habit to help them move towards their health goals, but the more they engaged, the more they'll get entered to win some contest. I love contests and that sort of thing, and so, that really ... I mean, Facebook loves that, right? You have lots of people engaging and posting and people supporting each other, and I feel like by doing that, people are just more likely to see your posts in their feed, right, if lots of people are engaging.

Joanna: They are, and there's another phenomenon behind that, which is that it measures time. So, with contests, it's super easy to follow a journey of one week or five days or however long it is because they can see it. They can see, "Oh, five days, we're on day three of five," versus when you're not in a contest, and the group is just open, and then, they just wander, right? So, challenges will always ... accountability. Time containers always do really, really well.

Kendra Perry: Yeah. I mean, I love it and super fun, and I think what's so cool about creating a community, too, is that you're the expert. Typically, in our industry, we're going to be having quasi health support groups where people are there to get supported, and you're there to support them, but when everyone else starts supporting each other, it's amazing, and that's one of my favorite things about my membership is when somebody goes on there, and they're having a hard day. They feel like crap or whatever, and they're venting. Like, I'll come on there later and see 50 comments of everyone supporting them and being like, "Hope you feel better. Do you want to talk? You can call me." And some people have actually met up in person who live in the same area. So, it's very cool how you can kind of be the connector of people, especially in the health industry. The biggest thing when you're sick is that it's very isolating. People feel very alone.

Joanna: So, this reminds me of this show I was watching yesterday about ... It was one of those experiments where they would give these kids one marshmallow, and if they could wait 10 minutes, they would get two marshmallows, and only one was able to actually make it, but then, he got two marshmallows, right? And so, this is when it comes ... This is exactly what people do with their Facebook groups. If you are willing to curate people that are involved, that are your avatar, that are your messenger to help you spread your message, you will get that second marshmallow, which is exactly what you just described. They take over the group for you, and then, you actually don't have to do anything. You can go live once a week, but you don't have to do any involvement because your people have found each other, and that was your only job in all of this, right, was to get them into one spot. They have found each other. They will entertain each other. It's kind of like a house party where everybody's happy, and you can slip away upstairs, and nobody notices the party still keeps going.

Kendra Perry: Yeah. I love that, and another thing I love to do, too, is just to you kind of get to know your group members, and you figure out who's an expert in what, and I have actually quite a few other health coaches in my group who just needed a health coach of their own, and I have one member who does a lot of mindset and tapping. And I mean, I'm not a woo woo person. I know nothing about that stuff. So, when people have questions about that or want to know more about that, I can always tag her, and she likes feeling like the expert, and she loves to just come on and give her two cents, and I think you can really utilize the expertise of your other members in a lot of ways as well to cut down the amount of work you have to do.

Joanna: Yep. And this is really the height that you want to reach in your group, is having those fans that are taking care of your group for you, and then, you are connecting them inside of your group. So, that way, your network and their network builds up together. This is what it's about.

Kendra Perry: Yeah. That's awesome. Do you have any suggestions for ... because I know some groups that I've seen out there get a little bit out of control. They kind of get overrun, and there's people posting promotional stuff in there, and it kind of starts leaving kind of the purpose of the group was originally built for. Do you have any tips for what you can do to prevent that from happening?

Joanna: Yeah. So, your group does require work. You can't walk away from it, and you have to stay true to what the purpose is and not let it stray because people will ... They will snatch it away really quick, especially if you have built a really large audience. They will try and just do anything to just get in front of them, even if the consequence is being deleted and removed. So, it comes down to curating the right members for your group. So, this is not only an advantage to you in finding the right members, but you're also protecting the people that you have already curated, and it's really selfish of people to think, "I have to hit this number no matter what it costs me or my community." A thousand members means nothing unless they're a thousand quality members that are your avatar and there to spread your message. So, a lot of times that happens because that's people's end goals, is just the numbers rather than focusing on bringing in the right people. So, if you have the right people ... and then, also, those raving fans we're talking about, they will shut those other people down if it starts getting out of control, and they'll say something.

Joanna: And also, the other thing is, sometimes, people just walk away because they're just tired. They're just tired of having to produce the content all the time. They're tired of having to be the face. They're tired of having to show up and provide. They maybe have let their boundaries down, and they let some people into messenger, and they're taking advantage of them, and then, they see the group as the source of that. So, they neglect it. I would say, and this typically happens with free groups, right? If it happens in paid groups, that's more of a culture fit for the member, but this is more about the free groups. So, you have to have a time container for yourself, and then, you have to relay that message to the people in the group. So, is this a pop-up group? Is this only here temporarily? Or is this open forever? If it's open forever, you have to show up. If you promise once a quarter, you have to show up once a quarter. If you promise once a month, show up once a month, but you have to show up. If you can't show up, show up to say you can't show up, and just shut the group [crosstalk 00:43:21].

Kendra Perry: Yeah. Okay.

Joanna: Breaking promises a lot is when people ... because your group goes on the back burner, and then, you're like, "Well, it was just a live in that group," and then, it just keeps getting brushed off, and then, you lose interest. They lose interest. If you're not in the group for a purpose, and you don't know the timeframe of it, which you should always know the timeframe of it, you will lose sight of everything, right? If I know this group is open for the next six months, I know what I need to plan for. If I'm just like, "Oh, I'll just grow it. I'll just grow it." I mean, that's people's strategy, like, "Just get more people in there."

Kendra Perry: Yeah. Kind of just like an afterthought in a way, hey?

Joanna: It is, yeah. So, if I'm getting ready for a launch, I have three months until launch. I know what I need to do three months before the launch. You always needs to have a focus for it.

Kendra Perry: Yeah, and another thing you said that popped out to me is being willing to protect the members who are in the group, and I guess not being afraid to kick people out when they don't fit in. I've done that in my membership group with somebody who was just bringing a lot of negative energy into the group, and I was like, "You know what? This doesn't fit. This is affecting the other members. So, unfortunately, this person has to go. I'll give them a refund, whatever." But I think you have to be willing to be the leader and realize when there's people who are damaging the community, right?

Joanna: Exactly.

Kendra Perry: Which isn't always easy, but sometimes, you've got to do it, right?

Joanna: You do. Yeah. Do you want to make one person happy or 75 people upset. This goes down to that.

Kendra Perry: Yeah. Exactly, and when your people are in the group, and they're engaged, they see that, right? They see that this person is a virus or bringing everyone down, and they're just waiting for you to do the right thing and take that person out.

Joanna: Exactly. So, one thing that we haven't touched on yet was about energy, and I did want to touch on that because I know that-

Kendra Perry: Sure. Lets do it.

Joanna: ... your crowd will get what I'm saying. So, this touches on how they affect the energy of the group, but most of your success is going to come out of being able to identify your energy patterns in your group, which is also why you need to have a timeframe on it. So, if I'm getting ready to launch, I know that the energy needs to start ramping up. So, people will call this momentum. They'll call it high engagement. So, those are codewords for energy, and you can push it up. You can bring it down. You are like the ... It's an orchestra for you, and you're the conductor, and there's all these strategies out here that do this, right? They'll start drumming up attention for your business and stuff. So, what's fun about the group is it actually captures all the energy, and you can take it and just play with it, and that's why launch groups are so fun because it's just all this energy being shot into the group, and then, so, let's take a paid group, for example, that supports a course. Let's say a course. This'll be easy to illustrate. So, when I join a course, I'm so excited. And so, I would put posts up that I'd just tap into that, like, "Oh, my gosh. I'm so excited you're here. We're partying and everything."

Joanna: And then, will come some work, and then, I'll be like, "Oh, my gosh. Now falling behind. I'm falling behind," and then, now, I'm feeling bad, and now, I'm embarrassed. So, if you know ... and that's a very typical pattern of people buying courses, right? They get on this high from purchasing, and then, they realize there's work. [crosstalk 00:47:23]

Kendra Perry: Or they're either overwhelmed and ... totally.

Joanna: Yeah. It's more than what they thought it would be. It thought it was going to be more plug and play. So, they have all these emotions of having to deal with work. So, you can manipulate that ... manipulate, we'll use that very lightly ... by bringing it up, and you can say, "It was hard work when you signed up, and you knew that. Now, you're just mad because you actually have to do it." I would just put that in their faces like, "You knew this wasn't going to be easy, but you bought it anyways, and here we are. So, it's time to roll your sleeves up." So, then, you bring that back up, and then, they find it to be very intriguing because you look like a psychic like, "How did you know it was going to be hard?" So, you kind of just map out that whole journey. They'll think it's hard, and then, I'll bring that back up, and then, I'll get them some quick wins, and then, they're like, "Wow. Actually, you really know what you're talking about." And then, we just keep building on that momentum. So, that's energy. That's how it will move, especially if you have a launch where you have 100 people that came in at the same time, and they're all going through that. Everybody's excited. Everybody's coming back down. Everybody's like ... and then, it'll split.

Joanna: 50 percent will give an effort. 50 percent won't. So, if you start controlling those energy points, everyone will stay on the same page, the community is tighter, and your completion rate goes up, and then, you get retention, and then, people are willing, and then, all the things you said you could do is happening, and then, they're asking you what's next.

Kendra Perry: I love that. Yeah. Yeah, and I think it's just about being aware that, yeah, people especially in health, people are going to self-sabotage. They're going to fall off the wagon, and just telling them that, "Hey, I know that you feel off the wagon. I know that you ate that three pieces of chocolate cake, and now, you feel guilty, but that's okay. It's okay that you fell off the wagon. It's okay that you feel overwhelmed. Let's get you back up there. Let's get you back on the wagon." Because it tends to happen on a very specific point, especially with health. It's not like this linear progression of feeling better and better and better. It's very much a rollercoaster.

Joanna: Exactly, and everybody's seen that picture of success is not linear, and then, they show what success actually looks like. Everybody's saying that, but then, when it happens in real life, they can't make the connection that, that's what happened, that they just made the loop back, and then, they go up. So, it's inevitable. You will make mistakes, and so, if you give people space to say, "That's okay," and then, you tell them, "I was expecting you. I know that was going to happen anyways," they can forgive themselves much faster and just keep moving forward. So, when you see how the energy ... when you're trying to control the energy and everything, if you have someone that is behind you trying to control what you're doing by being negative or calling you out on things, there can only be one conductor here, and it has to be me. I'm the one that moves the energy in this group, not you.

Kendra Perry: Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. You don't want to have everyone else doing it because then, it just gets confusing, and you lost control, and you want to keep whatever vibe you decided to have in that group. You want to keep that as much as possible. That's very cool. So, I love when you're talking about turning community members into clients by sort of you kind of direct them into messenger, and then, have the sales conversation on messenger. Is that your favorite way to kind of turn community members into clients, or do you have other ways that you recommend people try?

Joanna: Yeah. That's going to be what's going to open up your conversation because that's where they're going to admit things to you that they wouldn't say in front of the group, but the group, you're using it to open up and just kind of poke around. It's like the dentist when they're just picking around at the beginning to see what needs work and what doesn't, and then, they step into your office, and then, you have the real discussion. People are not going to just tell you everything right up front, but they can give you permission to come find out, and what you're looking for is permission. So, the group will actually act as a permission slip like, "Hey, I see that. I get that. Step into my office, and let's talk about it." And then, it's like, "Okay." I also think that your free group is like your best advertising machine. Besides it producing the content for you on your social media, you can just be there with them. It's like sitting at a table with them and just asking them, "What do you need? What bothers you? What do you need?" And then, you get to have that conversation on display, and it just works for you. Yeah, I'm sitting here giving my energy to 10 people, but at the same time, 500 are seeing it.

Kendra Perry: Yeah. Yeah. I love that, and I feel like you've made, in this conversation we've had, you've made me feel that Facebook groups are much easier than I'd made them out to be.

Joanna: Yes, and everybody's like that because I mean, there's a scarcity thing to this, too, right? It has to be hard, so I can sell you my course, but it's the easiest out of all of them because all you have to do is just say, "What bothers you?" That's the easiest. So, I don't have to go on Instagram and research hashtags or create a graphic or any of that. I don't owe anybody anything but figuring out what's up.

Kendra Perry: Yep, and then, you can just add a fun GIF to it, right?

Joanna: Yeah.

Kendra Perry: Pretty much, every time I post to my group, yeah, there's no graphics. There's nothing curated. It's just the most random GIF that I can find, and people love it.

Joanna: Yes. So, with GIFs, GIFs are your biggest time-saving tool because I can connect with people. Let's say with both watch friends. If I know that I can connect with you and bond with you over Friends GIFs, I also, in a variety of Friends GIFs, can pick ... There's some where they're yelling. There's some where they're laughing. There's some where they're crying. So, I can pick the emotion, and I can match your emotion, and then, that also connected with you because we both love Friends, and then, it just looks funny.

Kendra Perry: Yeah. Totally. I love the humor component of it because yeah, it's just so fun to get people to ... I love asking questions in my group like, "Tell me what you did this weekend with a GIF, or what did you want to be when you grew up with a GIF?" And then, it's hilarious, and people love it that you did that because they can just go down and see all these hilarious GIFs and try to guess what people are trying to say.

Joanna: And it's also a little alter ego. Sometimes, I pick GIFs of celebrities, like Jim Carrey, right? If I want to be exaggerating, I will pick a GIF from him, but he's like my alter ego.

Kendra Perry: So, you just use him all the time, or you could be like Beyonce and use all the Beyonce GIFs, right?

Joanna: Yep.

Kendra Perry: I love that. Yeah. I never really thought about that alter ego concept, but yeah, you could totally create that and have that energy into your group. Awesome. So, Joanna, where can people find out more about you if they want to dive deep into Facebook groups? I feel like you've provided us with so much great information. At the conference I was just recently at, I saw a talk on Facebook groups, and I was just like, "This isn't good at all." But what we just talked about in the past hour blew that out of the water. So, you are [crosstalk 00:56:05] so much good information. You should be talking at that conference next year.

Joanna: Let's just cut this out, and we'll send it to Social Media Marketing World.

Kendra Perry: Totally.

Joanna: [crosstalk 00:56:16]

Kendra Perry: [inaudible 00:56:16] for the conference.

Joanna: I love it. So, right now, I am calling home my business page, which is Experience Magic. So, I go live there. I do Magic Mondays [crosstalk 00:56:36].

Kendra Perry: Oh, I love it.

Joanna: So, on Mondays, I go live. So, I've been behind the scenes for a really long time, and so, I'm not really somebody that's able to be found yet. So, that would be the only spot to find me, but yeah, so, I have decided that this year, I've had a lot of people asking me ... They want to learn community. It's finally, after all this time, become a thing, and everybody wants to learn about it now. Yeah. So, I'm going to step out. It's nerve-racking. I get nervous seeing my face on camera, but got to do it, right?

Kendra Perry: Yeah. Totally, and I know we're both in Lindsay's course right now, and I think I saw one of your posts where you're like, "Ah, I'm so scared to come out from behind the scenes," because you have been still behind the scenes, but you have such a great method. I mean, you are such a great speaker, such a great teacher. I mean, you've got to get out there, girl.

Joanna: Yeah. Yeah. It's time.

Kendra Perry: Cool. So, it's Experiencing Magic is your Facebook page, and we'll be looking for you live every Monday for your Magic Mondays, and we'll be seeing more of you soon, a bit more of you soon, and I can't wait to learn more from you about communities. I'm going to go on your page and eat it up.

Joanna: Yes. [crosstalk 00:57:58] thank you again for having me today.

Kendra Perry: Yeah. No problem. It was so fun to hang out with you today. I really appreciate you being here, and thanks, everyone, for tuning in. We'll be back in a couple weeks, and I will be with my better half, Christine, next time, and guys, if you love this episode, and you love this content, let us know. Leave us a five star review on iTunes. That helps us get out in front of more people, and it just helps us know that you like what you're hearing and that you want us to create more episodes like this. So, thanks so much, everyone, and have a fantastic day.

Expert Strategies for Healing Hypothyroid & Hashimoto’s with Whitney Morgan



What if your client's thyroid issue has NOTHING to do with their actual thyroid? Here you are recommending thyroid glandulars, thyroid complexes, thyroid nutrients and you are just wasting their time and money. Even may be getting them ZERO RESULTS.

When it comes to Hashimoto's and Hypothyroid, you need to look beyond the thyroid. Whitney Morgan, L.Ac, likes to call this the "thyroid landscape."

This means moving beyond the thyroid and looking at the factors that may be preventing the thyroid from working optimal and most of these things may have nothing to do with the thyroid itself.

Whitney is a licensed acupuncturist and diplomate of Oriental Medicine. She is the owner of SagePoint Acupuncture & Wellness LLC in addition to being on staff at Tucson Acupuncture Co-op. Whitney has extensive experience as a functional nutritionist and serves as a clinical adviser for Functional Diagnostic Nutrition, Inc. Whitney. Whitney has obtained additional certifications as a Primal Health Coach and Gluten Practitioner. Whitney lives in Tucson Arizona with her husband and two dogs.

Book an appointment with Whitney:

Grab our Ultimate Health Coaching Tool Kit complete with our top picks for platforms plus our sample contract and intake form:

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Kendra Perry:                        Hello, hello, everyone. Welcome to another awesome, unbelievably amazing episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I am your host, Kendra Perry. And I am so happy to be joined by my co-host, Christine Hansen, who looks lovely, has amazing lipstick on as always, and almost didn't make it today, so I feel extra lucky.

Christine Hanse:                  See, and I still had time to put on my lipstick. It's like, there's priorities in life, you know?

Kendra Perry:                        Yeah, and I mean, you look fantastic as always, Christine. And I'm so happy to be here with you.

Christine Hanse:                  Okay, darling. I'm never getting tired of this. I will never say, "Please stop."

Kendra Perry:                        We like to flatter each other. And guys, as always, we have a really great episode lined up for you today. We're going to be talking about the thyroid. And when I was, "Okay. We need to talk about the thyroid. Who should we get on?" I instantly thought about Whitney Morgan, who is an old colleague of mine. I used to work with Whitney when I worked for Functional Diagnostic Nutrition, and she is one smart cookie. And she is on with us today. And just to give you guys a little bit more info on Whitney ... and I always slur or stumble over my words when I read people's bios, so bear with me, 'cause I get really nervous about it for some reason.

Kendra Perry:                        So Whitney is a licensed Acupuncturist and Diplomat of Oriental medicine. She is the owner of Sage Point Acupuncture and Wellness, LLC, in addition to being on staff at Tuscan Acupuncture Co-op. I'm doing good so far. Whitney has extensive experience as a Functional Nutritionist and serves as a Clinical Advisor for Functional Diagnostic Nutrition Incorporated. She has obtained additional certifications as a Primal Health Coach and Gluten Practitioner. She lives in Arizona with her husband and her two dogs. Welcome, Whitney. Thank you so much for being here.

Christine Hanse:                  Yay!

Whitney Morgan:               Thanks. I'm glad to be here. And I didn't put on lipstick this morning, so [crosstalk 00:01:53].

Christine Hanse:                  It's not morning. It's 6 PM, right? I had lots of time.

Kendra Perry:                        Yeah, Christine's in Europe, so she's in the future.

Christine Hanse:                  I don't look like this in the morning. Yes. I'm in the future. Exactly. I don't look this good-

Kendra Perry:                        I'm still on my first coffee, so.

Christine Hanse:                  [inaudible 00:02:07]

Kendra Perry:                        Awesome.

Christine Hanse:                  [inaudible 00:02:10]

Kendra Perry:                        Whitney, I'd love to know, 'cause I really find you to be such an expert on the thyroid. I've learned a lot from you, just advising with you on tests with Functional Diagnostic Nutrition, and we used to also do webinars together and talk about test results. Why do you like to focus on the thyroid, and how did you become such an expert in it? I'd love to know that.

Whitney Morgan:               Well, it's interesting, because as you know, when you worked for FDN, there was always projects in the works, right? Different webinars to be produced. And I got tapped. Reed said, "Hey, do you want to do a webinar on thyroid?" And you know, I'd been a clinical advisor for a while, and I was comfortable with thyroid labs, and I said, "Sure!" But then, preparing the webinar, actually I realized how much I didn't know. So it really was going through that process of doing lots of research, and pulling all of these various threads together that I think improved my expertise. I certainly wouldn't call myself an expert on the thyroid, but I'm on my way. And so, you know, it's all about learning, right? You just got to keep learning. So I was really interested in it, and just kind of dived in. And so, here we are.

Christine Hanse:                  Well, I can say you definitely came over across as a expert to me, because I'd looked at that webinar, and I was just like, "Oh my god, this is saving my life," because I promise every single client I work with has a thyroid issue. And maybe what's most important, every single client tells me that they've had looked into their thyroid, and they've been told that everything is okay.

Whitney Morgan:               Everything's fine, yep.

Christine Hanse:                  That, and that every practitioner out there who's listening has had the same scenario. And if you don't know better, you will just take that for granted. Right? So okay, they had a test done, their practitioner said, "Everything's okay, so let's not look at that." Why might that not be the best idea?

Whitney Morgan:               Well, you know, I think it's a common occurrence like you said, and it's not just the thyroid. It happens with your basic annual blood work too. It's like, "Oh, I had all these tests run. I do it every year, and everything's fine." But you know, in the functional world, we don't wait for diagnosis or pathology. We're looking for patterns before things really go crazy, before the wheels fall off the bus. But most people who come to see practitioners like us, they've already had chronic issues for so long, and unfortunately when they do get their thyroid checked, traditional docs aren't running all the markers. They're just maybe doing TSH or maybe T4, T3 if you're lucky, but that's about it.

Kendra Perry:                        Right. And what is the comprehensive thyroid panel? What should that actually look like? 'Cause yeah, I see it all the time. People come with their TSH and that's all they got, and you're kind of like, "Well, I mean, that's a small piece of a bigger puzzle."

Whitney Morgan:               Right. Right. Well, I think it's important to look at TSH and free T4, free T3. Those are some primary markers that most people are comfortable with. But then reverse T3 is super important, as is thyroid-binding globulin and of course the antibodies are really important. I look at thyroid globulin too, but that's more of a tumor marker. But still, every once in a while, I see that it's really elevated and that's an issue to refer out for follow-up. So really, I think you need all of those things in a complete thyroid panel, at least in the initial test. And then once you get a sense of the lay of the land, then maybe your follow-up testing can be a little more strategic. But it's actually so cheap, I tend to run a complete panel every single time.

Kendra Perry:                        Yeah. Yeah.

Christine Hanse:                  Yeah, me too. So maybe explain to us why it's so important. Like, why is TSH and T4 not enough?

Whitney Morgan:               Okay. Well, you know, TSH is really just the signal, right? So it comes from the pituitary and it says, "Hey, thyroid gland, there's not enough hormones circulating. Make more." It's just the signal. So it is a measurement of that feedback loop. So what's going on in the body that signaling the hypothalamus and the pituitary to determine whether or not we need more or less thyroid hormone production. So it's an important marker, but it does change pretty ... it has a wide range. Let's just put it that way. And it can fluctuate throughout the day, so it really depends on when you get your thyroid tested, are you testing it at the same time every day? So there are certain nuances to relying on TSH. But that's really a marker to evaluate a signal. That's really it. And then you have free T4 and free T3. Of course, the majority of what the thyroid produces is T4, and then it's converted into T3, which is the active form of the hormone that docks into all the cell receptors and is that metabolic driver.

Whitney Morgan:               But there's also reverse T3. So reverse T3 is really important, because if you think of free T3 as the brakes, let's rev up that metabolism, get things going. I mean, I'm sorry, it's the gas. Reverse T3's the brakes. So these two aspects of the thyroid hormone compete with each other at the cell receptor site. So someone could have plenty of free T3 and look normal on paper, but if they have more reverse T3 than they should, they can still be showing up as having real hypothyroid symptoms and be sub-clinically hypothyroid, even though their free T3 looks normal.

Kendra Perry:                        Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Christine Hanse:                  Yeah. I think that's super important to understand.

Kendra Perry:                        Yeah. And so how often do you see thyroid issues in your patients? Like is this something that you come across quite frequently?

Whitney Morgan:               Yes. In fact, I think once in a blue moon, I see a complete panel that looks textbook normal from a functional standpoint. And that's important, because these standard reference ranges for the various things we're measuring, they're pretty wide. And so when a traditional doc's looking at them, they say, "Oh. You're fine." But looking through functional, the ones of a functional reference range, we can see this kind of sub-clinical stuff show up much earlier, and start addressing it and intervening.

Christine Hanse:                  Yeah. It's like when I talk to my clients, I just tell them, "People don't go and get their thyroid tested when they feel super duper cool. They go when they have issues." So it's just a statistic. It's a statistic from extreme cases, so it's extreme ranges. And just because it means that you're not an emergency, doesn't mean that it's not impacting your lifestyle. And I think that's a little bit where people get lost, because they're not an emergency, but it is impacting their lifestyle which is not the territory of our more emergency-orientated doctors. Which is fine, but I mean, that's where Functional Diagnostics is where they find their place, basically.

Whitney Morgan:               Yeah. And what I see quite frequently is someone might have free T3 levels that look pretty solid, and might even be at the low end of the functional range, but when you look at their ratio of reverse T3 to free T3, they're so out of balance that they're not getting the full benefit of the free T3 hormone that's circulating. Or, what I also see, is thyroid-binding globulin being too low or too high, and that's like the transporter. It's the bus that carries the thyroid hormone to its destinations for conversion or to the destination cell. The cell receptors. And if there's not enough buses moving or if there's too many buses moving, things can also get out of whack, so that's an important marker to look at. How is hormone being transported through the body? Is that happening in an efficient way?

Kendra Perry:                        And so I want to talk a little bit about how things kind of go wrong with the thyroid. 'Cause in the thyroid course that you created for Functional Diagnostic Nutrition that both me and Christine have done, you talk about, I think you call it the thyroid landscape or the thyroid disorder landscape. And some of the things that actually play into the thyroid going out of whack that may actually not really have anything to do with the thyroid. Can you discuss some of those?

Whitney Morgan:               Sure. Well, the first thing that comes to mind ... well, the first two things that come to mind, the liver and the gut. The liver produces the binding globulin that binds to the T4 and T3 for transport, and it's the primary site of conversion, both from T4 to T3, and from T4 to reverse T3. So if there's something going on in the liver, if there's a lot of liver congestion, if there's some detox issues, just overburden issues, anything that we consider sub-par function, then that can really throw thyroid function off. And then the gut is a big contributor too, because we need healthy gut flora to really produce adequate amounts of T3. So if you've got parasites or overgrowth of opportunistic bacteria, or you've got gut damage, leaky gut, things like that, that can impact thyroid function. And then of course, the circulatory system is a contributor, because that's your highway. That's your transportation system.

Whitney Morgan:               And then of course the hypothalamus. Sometimes there can be things that are going wrong on the front end either with the hypothalamus or with the pituitary, so we call that maybe a tertiary or primary, secondary, or tertiary hypothyroidism. So sometimes you can have signaling malfunctions that happen. That's the brain. And so lots of things can affect the hypothalamus, of course, and the pituitary subsequently. So you think of anything that stresses out the adrenal system. That HPA axis. That can really impact how effectively the hypothalamus and the pituitary signal the thyroid gland.

Christine Hanse:                  Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kendra Perry:                        Yeah, and when you think about it that way, it kind of seems like, "Well, no wonder so many people are having thyroid disorders," 'cause who's not getting exposing to toxins? Who doesn't have gut issues? We all run gut panels, all three of us do.

Whitney Morgan:               Yeah.

Kendra Perry:                        We're always seeing infections. We're always seeing parasites. We're always seeing opportunistic bacteria. And you know, I think when you're a practitioner and you're working with someone who has thyroid disorder, you do have to look at the bigger picture. Because some people, they know they have a thyroid problem, so they're like, "What's wrong with my thyroid? What's wrong with my thyroid?" But you need to kind of take off the tunnel vision and look at the things that could be causing it, 'cause it sounds like, yeah, it could have nothing to actually do with the actual thyroid.

Whitney Morgan:               Oh, absolutely. It's just that that's a common test that's run in the traditional world, whereas it's pretty rare for a traditional doc to be assessing the HPA axis or looking at the gut or the liver the way that we do. So I think chronic stress is just such an issue in our modern world, and when that hypothalamus, pituitary adrenal system is out of whack, that will inhibit the signal from the pituitary to the thyroid gland. So it will inhibit that TSH, and it will bring down T4 production. If you have too much cortisol circulating, it will inhibit the conversion of T4 to T3. Also, it drives up the production of reverse T3, because the body's trying to slow itself down, keep you safe, right? So it increases the competitiveness of reverse T3 to free T3, the cell receptor site. And then it also changes the cell receptor sensitivity to T3. So it's just this cascade of dysfunction that can occur, but it's origin might be in the adrenal system, and the thyroid is where maybe it first shows up in terms of any sort of traditional tests that are run.

Kendra Perry:                        Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Christine Hanse:                  Right. Agreed. So obviously sometimes it can also be a physiological problem. So I have actually lots of clients who I then send to an endocrinologist, or for example, just say, "Look, you might really need to look into this a little bit more if I can't help enough." And a lot of them have then come back and they've been diagnosed with ... what do you call it in English? Goiters? No. Cold knots, we call it in-

Whitney Morgan:               Nodules? Nodules.

Christine Hanse:                  I think so.

Whitney Morgan:               Yeah.

Christine Hanse:                  Like the non-

Whitney Morgan:               Non-cancerous?

Christine Hanse:                  Yes. Exactly. So a lot of them come back with that, and they're super confused. So what would you give them as an advice? Also, as a practitioner, you're kind of, I think it's not in all of our [inaudible 00:16:33], especially if you're a general, generic, like a health coach or a nutrition coach. What would you recommend people to tell their clients or patients?

Whitney Morgan:               Yeah. Well, you know, that's a good point, because what you're bringing up, like nodules or enlargement at the gland itself, those are kind of critical things you got to deal with. But that's what I call a branch issue. It's not a root issue. So that's what's showing up, and yeah, we need to intervene, but of course, most FDN practitioners are not medical doctors. So that's something where you got to tread lightly, because traditional medicine has its own way to intervene with that kind of a situation. But I think that the key is to focus on, "Okay, while your doctor is dealing with the branch, let's deal with the root." So we need to look at nutritional factors. Are there chronic nutrient deficiencies due to, I don't know, you've been on birth control pills for 20 years. That's an issue. Do you have some mineral deficiencies? What's your iodine status? How is your liver detoxifying? Do you have a lot of gut infections that are shutting down detoxification? Do you have heavy metal toxicity?

Whitney Morgan:               I mean, there's so many things that underlie all of these root issues. So even things like, hey, if someone comes back and they say, "Oh, my doctor said my TPO antibodies are 400 and something, and so my doc says we're just going to watch that." Right?

Christine Hanse:                  Yep!

Kendra Perry:                        [inaudible 00:18:19]

Whitney Morgan:               'Cause they have nothing to offer, right?

Christine Hanse:                  Yeah.

Whitney Morgan:               But we know, "Okay, that means that this is an autoimmune issue where your immune system is attacking your thyroid gland. There's tissue destruction. We need to find out what the trigger is, so we're going to be running some ... we're going to look at the gut, we're going to look at food sensitivity issues. There's something that's the trigger." Right? Usually it's gluten. But it could be heavy metals. It could be gut infections. But that's where we can get a lot of work done that then those branches get healthier, because you're dealing with the soil and the roots, and the branches kind of start taking care of themselves, if that makes sense.

Kendra Perry:                        Oh, that makes total sense.

Christine Hanse:                  Beautiful metaphor. Why haven't I heard that before?

Kendra Perry:                        I love it.

Christine Hanse:                  I love it too. Makes total sense.

Whitney Morgan:               It's a Chinese medicine philosophy. That's the whole basis of Chinese medicine, is root and branch. In fact, if you read anything about Chinese medicine, it's very poetic and esoteric, but they talk about the doctor being like a gardener. Of course, the branches might need a little pruning here and there, and you have to address things, but if you're not putting the majority of the attention in the soil and the roots, the tree is never going to be healthy.

Christine Hanse:                  Kendra, I see both of our eyes and our brains going like, "I really want to learn this [inaudible 00:19:44]."

Kendra Perry:                        Totally. I know, right?

Christine Hanse:                  [inaudible 00:19:49]

Kendra Perry:                        Always.

Christine Hanse:                  [inaudible 00:19:50] my brain is already fried, but it's on my to-do list for my next life. [crosstalk 00:19:53]

Kendra Perry:                        I know. I know. There just needs to be more hours in the day to take all the courses and learn everything I feel like I need to learn.

Christine Hanse:                  Yeah. It's like I've been attracted to that topic for so long, and it's just like, "Ugh." Yeah. [crosstalk 00:20:08]

Kendra Perry:                        It's very cool. And I know you know a lot about gluten sensitivity, and sort of that non-celiac gluten issue, and can you talk about how gluten can be a trigger? 'Cause I know many people who have Hashimoto's, so they have hypothyroid, and they continue to eat gluten, and I'm always like, "That's a mistake." And why would that be a mistake?

Christine Hanse:                  [inaudible 00:20:31] much?

Whitney Morgan:               Yeah. Yeah, it is a mistake. Okay. So celiac disease is kind of a narrow, more limited form of gluten sensitivity. It's way on one end of the spectrum, right? And maybe you're looking at one percent of the population. But up to 20 or 30 percent of the population, we have non-celiac gluten sensitivity. So they don't have that gut autoimmune process going on, but there's tomato, tomahto. It really doesn't matter, because it's still both set you up for the same kinds of autoimmune disorders down the road. So what we do know, what the research is showing, is that almost half of people with gluten sensitivity of any form will manifest some type of thyroid dysfunction. And just one exposure to gluten can set off an inflammatory cascade that can last for several weeks to several months. So there's no such thing as eating a little bit of gluten, right?

Kendra Perry:                        Right.

Whitney Morgan:               So a few things to understand about gluten. It sets the stage for gut permeability in everyone. It doesn't matter if you're sensitive to gluten or not. Gluten creates a more permeable gut because it increases zonulin production. And zonulin is that enzyme that kind of hyper-regulates the tight junctions when it's in the gut in increased amounts. Those tight junctions will kind of open up a lot. So then you get leaky gut, and you get things moving through the gut that shouldn't, like partially digested food proteins. So you've got these big food antigens going into the gut, or viruses, or metals. All kinds of stuff, right? So like all grains, also gluten has a toxic lectin in it. And so even beside the zonulin issue, all grains have these lectins that create more permeability in the gut as well.

Whitney Morgan:               So in this sense, gluten is kind of like the mob boss of the grains. It's like the one that does the most damage, and it can be an exacerbating factor in all thyroid autoimmunity. In addition to that, the gluten protein, the structure of it is really big and complex and kind of clunky, and it can look a lot like other things. One thing is the thyroid. Particularly when we're talking about wheat germ agglutinin, which is the lectin part of the thyroid gland. You kind of get this double whammy, because the wheat germ agglutinin, if it gets through the gut, will actually ... it's really sticky, and it can stick to the thyroid gland. And then you get the immune system trying to destroy the wheat germ agglutinin, and in the process, it does a lot of tissue damage. But then there's also this mimicry, where gluten can start looking a lot like thyroid tissue as well, so then you have the immune system going, "Oh. I'm going to make antibodies not only to gluten, but to this thyroid thing here, because that looks way too much like gluten for me to be comfortable." Right?

Kendra Perry:                        Right.

Whitney Morgan:               And there's almost 100 percent correlation, almost, between Hashimoto's and gluten sensitivity. And to make matters worse, most people who come to us will say, "Oh, I have hypothyroidism." Rarely do I hear, "I have Hashimoto's."

Christine Hanse:                  Yeah.

Whitney Morgan:               But almost everyone's diagnosed with hypothyroidism. Right? But most hypothyroid cases are undiagnosed Hashimoto's cases. They just haven't been properly assessed. So when you follow that logic, it's like okay, if you have hypothyroidism, you probably have Hashimoto's. If you have Hashimoto's, you probably are gluten sensitive. No one should be eating gluten if they've got a thyroid issue. Nobody.

Christine Hanse:                  I think nobody here has any [inaudible 00:24:45] condition [inaudible 00:24:51]. All the clients I've had, I only had one single client who didn't show positive to food sensitivity when it came to gluten. All the others had a big red bar.

Whitney Morgan:               Right. Well, and then when you jump down that rabbit hole, then there's that additional thing of, "Well, there's all of these other foods that aren't gluten, but they cross-react with gluten." So it's not just the gluten you might have to get rid of. It's the dairy, and the corn, and the yeast, and the rice, 'cause those things look too much like gluten to the immune system.

Christine Hanse:                  Mm-hmm (affirmative). [crosstalk 00:25:26]

Kendra Perry:                        Yeah, and I know there's a test that ... is it the Cyrex Array 4 that tests for cross-reactive gluten sensitivity?

Whitney Morgan:               Yeah, and up until recently, I pretty much used exclusively Cyrex. So the Array 3 test for gluten sensitivity, and then the Array 4 looks at all of these cross-reactive proteins. And it's an IgG, IgA looking at the whole food protein. Now I've stopped using the Cyrex because now we have the Wheat Zoomers. We have all these Zoomer tests from Vibrant Wellness. The Wheat Zoomer is great. It's cheaper than the Cyrex Array 3, and inside the Wheat Zoomer, you have an intestinal permeability panel as well. So you get a bigger bank for your buck. You can also add on the celiac genes for an additional 99 bucks if you want.

Christine Hanse:                  [inaudible 00:26:22]

Whitney Morgan:               Yeah. They also have a Dairy Zoomer and a Corn Zoomer and a Lectin Zoomer, so like the Wheat Zoomer, these other Zoomers are looking at these foods at the peptide level, breaking them apart into all their constituent parts, so they get a more granular view of how sensitive someone might be to the little itty bitty parts of the food. Whereas IgG and IgA is just looking at kind of like the whole big bad protein. So I will run Wheat Zoomer, Dairy Zoomer, Corn Zoomer, Lectin Zoomer, and then I will add to that their 96 food panel. And that's just the basic IgG, IgA to 96 foods. If I run all of those, the only thing I'm not testing that cross-reacts with gluten, is millet. It's the only thing.

Kendra Perry:                        Okay. Millet's gross anyways. Who wants to eat that crap?

Christine Hanse:                  I know. Dog food.

Whitney Morgan:               Yeah. And most people don't. And it's not a common ingredient in gluten-free foods anyway. But a word of warning, because I had a very interesting experience recently where I usually run an Array 3, at least one Array 3 a year, and two Array 4s on myself a year just to make sure that everything is kosher, 'cause I have celiac disease. I've never come up positive with any cross-reactivities. So I live a primal lifestyle pretty much, but I'll have a little bit of raw, organic dairy. Small amounts. And then maybe on a Sunday or so, I'll go way off the reservation, get crazy, and have some corn chips maybe.

Christine Hanse:                  Oh my god! Oh my gosh!

Whitney Morgan:               I know, right?

Christine Hanse:                  Crazy girl!

Whitney Morgan:               But I figured, "Hey, I don't have cross-reactivities. I'm cool." So then I ran all these Zoomers on myself. Not only were my gluten antibodies elevated, but I was super reactive to dairy, super reactive to corn.

Christine Hanse:                  Wow.

Whitney Morgan:               I also came up positive with a rice lectin, so I'm reactive to rice.

Christine Hanse:                  There's like nothing left. It's like-

Whitney Morgan:               But the interesting thing is the 96 food panel that also has dairy and corn on it, I came up non-reactive on the IgG, IgA. So it just really ... it was a big "Ah ha" for me. It just goes to show you that IgG, IgA is good, but it's not enough for some people, because my level of sensitivity is such that I really need to be looking at things at the level of the peptide in order for it to show up. So now I'm a big Vibrant Wellness fan.

Kendra Perry:                        That's very cool. I actually have the Cyrex Array 4. I've been trying to run it from Canada with zero success. I just can't make it happen. I've had the run-around. [crosstalk 00:29:24] I've tried multiple blood draw places, and they're like, it's not ... they don't run it fast enough or something, so I'm like, "Okay." Now I'm like, "Maybe I should look into the Zoomer." But I think that's really interesting, what you say about the IgG, 'cause I see so many people ... like one of the main tests people bring to me when they start working with me is the food sensitivity test, and it's like a Great Plains lab, or an MRT or something. I'm not dissing these companies, but sometimes stuff doesn't come up. And they're like, "Oh, well, gluten didn't come up, so I'm good," and I'm like, "Mm, I don't know. You probably aren't."

Whitney Morgan:               Yeah.

Christine Hanse:                  Let's just try to cut it out, and usually they see the reaction so quick, but yeah, it's super hard. I'm in Europe, and so getting labs over here is really difficult, especially from independent. So the one that I usually run is the ZRT, but they started to cut out RT3. Like, they're not testing it anywhere. So I don't know why. They have a disclaimer on their website. I forgot what they said, 'cause I was just annoyed and didn't read it. But it's been just a couple of months that they took that out of their panel, so I'm like, "Oh."

Whitney Morgan:               Interesting.

Christine Hanse:                  Yeah. They're not testing that anymore.

Kendra Perry:                        I wonder why they'd do that. Yeah, you'd think they'd be progressing forward, not backwards.

Christine Hanse:                  I know. So it's ... I don't know what's happening there. But yeah, I need to find a new company that I can use for my clients up ahead. So not always easy.

Kendra Perry:                        Yeah. I know. If you're in the US, you're good, but you're in like Canada and Europe, it's like sometimes it can be ... some things are really easy to do, but yeah, anything that requires a blood draw seems to be like pulling teeth over here.

Whitney Morgan:               Yeah, and you know, what I see too is like you were saying, Kendra, people come to you with food panels. I see exclusive IgG panels. Like they're just getting the finger stick, or they're just, you know, Great Plains or whatever. And that's just half of what you need to be looking at anyway. Right? So they'll come up totally normal. "Oh, wheat's normal." Yeah, but that doesn't mean you're not having an IgA response to it. Right?

Kendra Perry:                        Yeah.

Whitney Morgan:               And about the MRT too, I stopped using it because ... well, for two reasons. One, you can't tell the difference between what's just an inflammatory reaction, what's an IgG or IgA reaction. Right? You can't make that distinction. And also, I've had two people who are celiac come up totally unreactive to wheat. My daughter, who's not celiac gluten sensitive, come up with unreactive to wheat. And then, I've had situations where I've had clients who absolutely know. It's like, "Hey, if I eat avocado, my throat starts to close up," and it comes up green. So it's just like [crosstalk 00:32:04]

Christine Hanse:                  That's not good.

Whitney Morgan:               False negatives are not good, right? Particularly when we're dealing with clients who are looking for a reason to not have to take things out of their diet.

Kendra Perry:                        Yeah.

Christine Hanse:                  Yes! It's so harsh. They're like, "I can't eat anything." It's like [inaudible 00:32:20] eat stuff, you know? It's like [inaudible 00:32:22].

Whitney Morgan:               Yeah.

Christine Hanse:                  Like, "Now my life's over." It's like, "Yeah. That's a tough one."

Kendra Perry:                        So Whitney, if I am a ... say I'm a health coach, and I have a client who has hypothyroid, what would be like the top three things I should be recommending to this person besides ... I think we've made a good point for getting gluten out at this point, so it's definitely one of them.

Christine Hanse:                  Very subtle.

Whitney Morgan:               Well, yeah. I guess ... okay, so it depends. If your client is willing to do some additional testing and has some money to throw at that, then I'd want to know ... okay, I'd run a GI map to see what the gut infections are looking like. I would get a sense of metal toxicity, mineral status, whether that's an HTMA or the Quicksilver test that I like a lot as well. And I would also be looking at a micro-nutrient panel. So I want to say, "Okay, what are the nutrient deficiencies, and are there these other toxins?" You know, whether they're pathogens, endotoxins, or metals, what else is going on? It also could be that you might have to dig even deeper than that, and be looking at viruses and microtoxins. You just don't know.

Whitney Morgan:               And then there are just the basic things that we know and we do every day, which is you need to remove the things from your life that are stressing out your HPA axis, right? You need to modulate that system, strengthen that system, and so all those lifestyle changes that go into that. So I would do a batch of additional testing. We always need to be looking at that root system, right?

Kendra Perry:                        Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Whitney Morgan:               But let's say you've got a client who says, "I don't have any money. I can't do any of that. All I know is that I have hypothyroidism and I feel like crap." Okay. Well, I would definitely assume it's Hashimoto's. I would definitely assume that this person has a gluten sensitivity. I would put them on the AIP diet. They would have to eliminate all potentially cross-reactive foods, which if you're on the AIP, that does that, takes care of that. And they would be on glutathione. I'd check their vitamin D levels. They would be on vitamin D if necessary. Glutathione. Really high-dose fish oil. I'd have them on immune globulins, like The Microbiome now has the bovine serum immune globulins.

Kendra Perry:                        I love those products. They're great.

Whitney Morgan:               Yeah.

Christine Hanse:                  I saw those too. Yeah. I couldn't get them, but I'm like, "I really want them."

Whitney Morgan:               They're really good. So I would definitely do that, and then some Boswellia, some crocumin to kind of tamper down that inflammatory response. I might give them 100 micrograms of selenium, or 200 if their antibodies are elevated. So you kind of put everything together that's going to address the fundamental stuff in supporting the immune system before you even think about, "Well, am I going to do anything to encourage more T4 production?" Right?

Christine Hanse:                  Yes.

Whitney Morgan:               Because it doesn't make sense to address the thyroid gland unless you've got all that immune system support in place. Right?

Christine Hanse:                  Yeah. Agreed. Yeah.

Whitney Morgan:               But let's say you do. You get all that immune system support in place, and they make all those dietary changes. I would make sure they've got all the nutrients in their diet that we know contribute to adequate thyroid function, and then I would just maybe put them on a little Thyro-Gold, depending on what their numbers look like. Maybe a little Ashwagandha. Definitely some liver organ extract, 'cause it's super, super nutritious. These are just basic, fundamental things. You know? And that happens a lot. Some people, particularly if you're looking at throwing a bunch of money towards tests, and then have me throw a bunch of money at supplements, some people will just say, "I'll do whatever you tell me to do. I just need to put my money towards the supplements and the food." Right? So then I just assume the worst. I mean, really. And I'll even prophylactically treat people for parasites and bacterial overgrowth and yeast.

Whitney Morgan:               Because I mean, that's what we used to do anyway. I remember a decade ago when it was just like the known thing that two or three times a year, you do a parasite cleanse. You just do that, right? So why not just do that? It's not going to hurt them, as long as you support detoxification. You support the liver. You make sure those pathways of elimination are open, and urine and stool and all of that. You do all of that, then I just prophylactically treat everything I can except for metals. I don't detox metals unless I've got hard data. That's just not cool.

Kendra Perry:                        Yeah, that's a dangerous thing if you're not in the right state to do it.

Whitney Morgan:               Yeah. Yeah. But, having said that, I will frequently put someone on the PushCatch kit from Quicksilver, and that will detox the little metals. It will bind up some metals and other things without actually actively going after stored metals. Right?

Kendra Perry:                        Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I always have people on binders. I'll use a little bit of ... I don't know what's in the PushCatch, but I'll use BioCell's, so I think it's like a similar thing in the PushCatch [inaudible 00:38:13]. There's some silicon and-

Whitney Morgan:               No. In the PushCatch, there's two supplements. So the push is the liver sauce, and that's got your bitters, dem, milk thistle, and R-Lipoic Acid. And then the catch is the ultra binder, and that has your Cytozen, IMD, which I believe is silica-based.

Kendra Perry:                        It's silica-based, yeah.

Whitney Morgan:               Yeah, and your charcoal and your clay.

Kendra Perry:                        Yeah.

Whitney Morgan:               And I add to that a PectaSol-C.

Kendra Perry:                        Mm. You know I love my supplements. [crosstalk 00:38:39]-

Whitney Morgan:               -which is pectin. Then I put five drops of BioCell in there too. I just kind of like supercharge my binder.

Kendra Perry:                        Yeah. Totally.

Whitney Morgan:               I do binders every day. I mean, no matter what.

Kendra Perry:                        Me too. I have some PectaSol-C in my coffee.

Whitney Morgan:               Yes.

Kendra Perry:                        That's how I always start my day.

Whitney Morgan:               We need to do binders every day. It's too toxic of a world not to.

Kendra Perry:                        Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Absolutely. I totally agree. Well, that was amazing. Honestly, that is so much information. I'm actually going to probably have to go back and re-listen to this episode and take better notes.

Christine Hanse:                  It was amazing.

Kendra Perry:                        Because yeah, that's some really actionable stuff, and some really ... because it is so common that ... you know, I have a friend who I will not name who has Hashimoto's, and they're like, "Oh, but I'm medicated for it, so it's not an issue. I'm taking Synthroid." And you're like, "Well."

Whitney Morgan:               But that doesn't do anything to Hashimoto's.

Christine Hanse:                  Yeah, that doesn't fix it.

Kendra Perry:                        Yeah.

Whitney Morgan:               It doesn't do anything.

Kendra Perry:                        Maybe preventing you from dying, but-

Whitney Morgan:               It can exacerbate some of the tissue destruction, you know, if you don't have other things in place. And another thing I wanted to mention to is simple things that practitioners can have their clients do. Stay out of swimming pools. Right?

Kendra Perry:                        Yes. Oh, my gosh.

Whitney Morgan:               Get filters on your shower. Stay away from fluoride. Stay away from chlorine. Stay away from all of those chemicals. Those are the halogen chemicals, right? Halites, yeah.

Christine Hanse:                  Halites.

Whitney Morgan:               That antagonize the thyroid, and actually compete with the thyroid hormone at the cell receptor site. So if you've got someone who's going to the gym every day and swimming, and they've got ... they're on, god, thyroid hormone replacement therapy, that's crazy. [crosstalk 00:40:21]

Kendra Perry:                        Or drinking tap water, or showering in tap water. [crosstalk 00:40:25] 'Cause if you're on municipal city water ... I mean, I'm like a broken record with this shit, but I'm always talking about the chlorine, the fluoride in your water. You're putting it into your system every day, and like you said, it competes with thyroid and pushes iodine off of the receptor, which you need [crosstalk 00:40:39] hormone. It's huge. Who's not getting exposed to that crap, right?

Whitney Morgan:               Yeah. Yes, it is huge. [crosstalk 00:40:45] Then you know, just the simple things too, like B vitamins and zinc and selenium. I can't count the number of times I have clients who were on the pill for 15 plus years, and now they're dealing with hypothyroidism or Hashimoto's or whatever. It's like, "Well, yeah, of course." It's almost like a guarantee. You are going to get thyroid dysfunction if you've been on the pill for a long period of time. Just wait.

Kendra Perry:                        Yeah. I see it all the time when I test people's minerals. Like their thyroid ratio is out of rate. Their copper toxic from all the estrogen they've been taking. And it's just unfortunate, because girls get put on it pretty young. I mean, I started taking it when I was like 15 or 16, and no one's getting the information of what it actually can do to your body if you use it long-term, unfortunately.

Whitney Morgan:               No, it's the largest human experiment, right? Unregulated. Yeah.

Kendra Perry:                        Mm-hmm (affirmative). Oh, it's crazy. So Whitney, if people want to connect with you or learn more about you, where can they find you?

Whitney Morgan:               Well, they can go to my website at Disclaimer here that I am going through a rebranding process, because I've shut down my private acupuncture practice, and I'm now doing community acupuncture at a local clinic here.

Kendra Perry:                        Oh, awesome. I love that.

Whitney Morgan:               Yeah. I love it too. It's awesome. So now my name confuses people. I'm going to be building a new website, changing my business name. It's going to be more just focused on the functional nutrition aspect of my business, so I'm completely separating them. But I'll still point my URL to my new website, so will get you to me for sure.

Kendra Perry:                        Awesome. And you said you're located in Tuscan, Arizona?

Whitney Morgan:               Tucson.

Kendra Perry:                        Tucson!

Whitney Morgan:               Yeah.

Kendra Perry:                        Awesome.

Whitney Morgan:               Everyone says Tuscan that isn't from here.

Christine Hanse:                  Even I knew that, and I'm not American.

Kendra Perry:                        Whatever, Christine.

Christine Hanse:                  Smart ass.

Kendra Perry:                        Awesome, Whitney. Well, we appreciate you so much having this conversation with us. This was very enlightening, and I think our audience will love it.

Christine Hanse:                  It's a brain fry. [inaudible 00:42:59]

Kendra Perry:                        Yeah. Total brain fry, but I feel like our audience likes being overwhelmed. They're like, "I feel overwhelmed, but I kind of [inaudible 00:43:04]." And guys, if you like what you're hearing, if you like this episode, make sure to hop on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, wherever. Give us that five-star review. We will give you a live shout-out on air. We will love you, and send you lots of kisses. So yeah, if you like what we're doing, that's the best way to support the show is just give us a quick review. Takes two minutes. And that will help us reach more people. So thanks so much, guys, as always. We very much appreciate you listening to our banter, and we'll see you guys again in two weeks from today. Bye guys.

Christine Hanse:                  Bye.

Whitney Morgan:               Thanks guys. Bye.

How Vitamin D Makes You More Tired and Fatigued



Vitamin D supplementation is trendy. There is more and more research telling you that chronic illness, cancer and autoimmunity is highly associated with Vitamin D deficiency. 

Physicians are making the move to recommend high doses of Vitamin D supplements to everyone, even children as young as newborns. Is high dose vitamin D supplementation safe? Is it something you need to do to be healthy? Are blood tests for Vitamin D levels reliable?

In this episode, I discuss the effects of Vitamin D on the other minerals and Vitamin levels in the body. I outline the effects of Vitamin D supplementation on your thyroid gland, your adrenals, your magnesium, potassium and calcium levels. 

We will go through the type of blood testing that is typically done to assess Vitamin D status and how it might not actually identify a true vitamin D deficiency. We will also discuss the best ways to support true vitamin D deficiency in terms of supplementation and safe sunlight exposure.

Grab your FREE Endless Energy Checklist to get my top 5 non-negotiable strategies for eliminating fatigue:

Join my ground-breaking HIGH on Energy Program for Women:

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Say hi on Social:


Hey guys! How's it going? Welcome to another episode of High on Energy TV on Facebook Live and the podcast on High on Energy podcast. So I've got my little kitty friend with me right now, I love cats, I'm actually cat sitting right now. Hopefully, she won't be too crazy, she goes between totally loving me and wanting to scratch my fucking face off. So we'll see how it goes. Hopefully, I won't have to kick her out.

But I hope you guys are doing good. Sorry, I'm running a little bit late today for you Facebook live people, I'm having a lot of technical issues today for some reason. So I'm streaming in through a way that I don't ever normally stream because all of my streaming software into Facebook would not work, so I'm having one of those crazy technology glitches but that's totally okay. Guys, if you're on with me live right now, we've got a few of you coming on now. Say hey, say how's it going because today we are going to dive into a vitamin D supplementation, which I actually have a lot of opinions about.

Surprise, surprise, I have an option about something. We're gonna be diving into this today. Sharon's on right now and she's very glad that we're talking about vitamin D. Guys, so if you can't join me on Facebook live, if you're not into watching video. This episode will go out as a podcast on the High on Energy podcast. Guys, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, GooglePlay, pretty much wherever you listen to your podcast and that way you won't miss an episode and you can take me on your walk with you, if that's what you prefer. That's definitely how I like to do things. I'm a podcast person not a video person.

Awesome guys, so again if you're with me right now shoot me a comment, let me know you're here. I love interacting with you, and as always I'm very happy to answer your questions. Okay, so I want to talk a little bit about vitamin D and whether it's something you should actually be supplementing with, because pretty much in like mainstream health news what you're being told is that you should take very high levels of vitamin D, that it's anti-cancer, it's anti-auto immune. And I know over in Europe, in certain European countries they prescribe very high doses of vitamin D to babies and children, like right off the bat.

Like they're coming into the world and they're putting them on these high doses of vitamin D. Is that actually a good strategy? Is improving your vitamin D levels through vitamin D supplementation actually something you should do? Is it actually something that's worth spending your money on? So I'm going to address that today.

So before we jump into it guys, let's talk a little bit about what vitamin D is and why we should care. So vitamin D is in that group of fat soluble vitamins. So your fat soluble vitamins are Vitamin A, Vitamin E, oh my gosh kitty. Vitamin K and then of course vitamin D. Okay, so they're fat soluble meaning that in order for them to be absorbed, okay kitty, I've got to throw away the kitty. I love her but she's scratching and biting me.

Okay, so with vitamin D in order to absorb those vitamins they actually need to be adsorbed in a fat medium. That's why they're called a fat soluble vitamin. And one of their main roles in the body is actually to increase the intestinal absorption of calcium, magnesium and phosphate and it also has many other biological facts.

The other interesting thing about vitamin D is it kind of has this dual relationship. Simultaneously, it is a vitamin, it's vitamin D. But it's also actually a pro hormone, so it has hormonal effects in the body, it's actually considered a hormone. So because of that, I think the most important thing to keep in mind when taking vitamin D is that it's going to affect your hormones. It's going to affect your sex hormones. So, in men it might boost testosterone, but in women it may raise estrogen. Now, maybe that's a good thing depending on what you have going on, but it is really important to keep in mind that vitamin D does have an effect on all the other hormones in the body.

And I would say a lot of the research, a lot of the big headlines you see in health news have to do with that vitamin D autoimmune connection. So there's a lot of research that will show you that people with chronic illness, people with cancer, people with autoimmune disease have really low levels of vitamin D. I think that's really interesting, I think it's really interesting that low vitamin D tends to go with this chronic illness. But does that actually mean that vitamin D is a cause? So I think when we see things like that, where we're like “Okay, vitamin D is associated with chronic illness, with cancer, with autoimmune issues. So I need to get my vitamin D levels tested and I need to take as much vitamin D as possible because it's going to prevent me from having these issues.”

But that actually might not be the case, just because there's a connection between something doesn't mean there's a causal factor. This is like the biggest thing with research that drives me crazy and the way that the news actually portrays that research, is they will say have crazy things in their headline that actually elude to the fact that there's some sort of causal mechanistic thing going on. When really it's actually just an association and just because two things are correlated doesn't mean they cause each other.

This is a big thing with like those population settings, and a lot of the big headlines you see in the media for this research has a lot to do with population settings. So it's like, people look at a population, so they look at a population of people and they say, "Okay, in this population these people tend to have a lower intake of iodine, and they also have a higher incidence of thyroid cancer," or something like that, right? So those things are connected according to the population study. You have that sorry the cat is distracting me, she's like in a bag right now. Totally ruining my train of thought, I should have kicked her out, but I just think she's so cute.

Anyways, so basically like those things have some sort of relationship. This low iodine is somehow connected to thyroid cancer but it doesn't mean that low iodine causes thyroid cancer. It just means that they're connected in some way and I think that's really interesting. Interesting. It's something that maybe we need to dig in deeper, but there is nothing in that study that actually indicates a causal mechanism.

We need to actually see deeper studies where we actually research whether there is a mechanistic or a causal factor going on. This is the big thing that drives me crazy about the media, is like they'll just ... a study like that will come out that will be some population study or epidemiological study that connects low iodine to thyroid cancer. But how it will be portrayed, the headline will be something like, "Low iodine causes thyroid cancer according to recent study." It's very misleading and I think a lot of people will just look at the headline, maybe they'll dig a little bit into the article but they actually don't go into that actual study like most people don't actually know how to read research studies and why would they? 

It's pretty boring, it's pretty technical but when you actually go look at the methods and how that study was actually done, that's how you can actually determine if there was actually something causal or something mechanistic that was actually studied, in a lot of the cases there isn't. That's me off on a tangent, but what was done was actually a review. So there was a review done on the research that connects vitamin D to autoimmune disease, for example. A review is basically just when they look at all the research available and see what it's all saying and kind of like analyze it and say, "Based off of all the research available, this is where things are pointing, this where they're not pointing, this is maybe something we need to look into further."

A review was actually released that was looking at vitamin D deficiency in regards to autoimmune disease and what they found was that low levels of vitamin D in patients with autoimmune disease may be a result rather than an actual cause of that autoimmune disease and maybe even supplementing with vitamin D may actually exacerbate that autoimmune condition.

So I think that's really interesting. Boy kitty. So and I think with a lot of that stuff, this is actually what's going on. Yes, people with autoimmune disease tend to have lower levels of vitamin D, but it doesn't mean that low levels of vitamin D are actually causing that autoimmune condition. I actually am not a fan of supplementing with vitamin D and I actually don't recommend it with anyone I work with and this is why. Because vitamin D is a vitamin, so not only is it a pro hormone, it's a hormone that affects other hormones but it's actually a vitamin that affects our minerals. vitamin D has a really unique effect on the minerals in the body, so it will actually raise calcium by increasing the intestinal absorption of calcium.

The other thing it does is it depletes the intestinal absorption of Potassium. This a big deal. First of all, 80% of people out there actually have issues with their calcium, they actually have too much calcium in the body. The reason why you wouldn't want too much calcium in the body because the higher the calcium gets in the body the more it slows the thyroid. And the other thing about calcium is it's not the smartest mineral, and when it's in the body without all its posses, so without proper levels of other mineral and vitamins, it tends to end up in the wrong place and it tends to build up in the soft tissue.

So when I do mineral testing, generally what I'm seeing is a lot of soft tissue calcification. This just calcium building up everywhere, where it doesn't belong. So 99% of calcium actually does belong in the bone and the teeth and that's where you want it to be. But when you have this soft tissue calcification situation going on the calcium can't get into the bone in the teeth and the Potassium will affect that. If you have low Potassium, very hard to get calcium into the bone and then it ends up building up in the soft tissue.

So that could be the joints, the organs, that could be the kidneys, that could be the muscles, that could be the brain. And calcium is relatively sharp, so it does cause a lot of aggravation. Bone spurs are a really good example of soft tissue calcification. Now, when you have soft tissue calcification, that is sort of aging at its finest because it makes you stiffer, it causes a lot of pain, a lot of tension, achiness, stiffness, even migraines and that's a big reason why people who are in their end of life stage, so elderly people, that's why they are stiff and don't move well and are achy and have a lot of pain, aren't very flexible because they have soft tissue calcification because that's what actually happens when you age.

Now vitamin D can exacerbate that, but of course if we have vitamin D in proper levels in the body, that's actually not going to happen. What does it mean for someone who already has that issue with calcium happening, and like I said I run hundreds of mineral panels and seeing it in like 80% of people. What happens when there's already a calcium issue and then people actually start to take, in my opinion, extremely high levels of vitamin D. They're taking 5,000 IUs, they're taking 10,000 IUs, they're taking 20 or 30. I've seen people prescribed as many as 50,000 IUs of vitamin D, like that is significant. That is a shit ton of vitamin D, okay?

I think it can be a big mistake and basically, so I'm going to dig in, I'm going to get a bit nerdy about mineral testing for a second here. But basically with mineral testing we see one of two patterns, we see a slow oxidizer versus a fast. 40 years ago, it was about 50/50 split, now it's about 80% slow. Most people are in slow pattern and people who are in a slow metabolic pattern have elevated calcium and low Potassium, and that's what vitamin D will exacerbate.

So it actually can make that situation worse. Now, if you're in that 20% who are fast oxidizers, which is significantly more rare these days, potentially vitamin D could help you but I've actually seen vitamin D to cause a lot of issues with mineral balancing. So I don't actually think that we are meant to take vitamin D3 on its own without the proper co-factors, without the K2, without all the other things that helps the vitamin D get to where it needs to go orally.

The biggest thing, so maybe what you're thinking here right now is that, "Okay, well, I got my vitamin D levels tested and I'm low," so that's why I'm taking vitamin D. I've actually confirmed it with testing." So, this is an issue because what you're getting tested for 25 hydroxy vitamin D is actually the storage form of vitamin D. It's not actually the active form. You can go Google that right now and that's exactly what you'll find.

So, how can we fully assess vitamin D levels and conclude that someone has vitamin D deficiency if we are only looking at the storage form of vitamin D? What does having low vitamin D storage actually mean? So I don't actually totally know the answer to this question. I'll be totally honest with you, but here are some thoughts in my head. So I would think if you are someone with chronic illness, if you have an autoimmunity, cancer, some other sort of chronic illness and you have low vitamin D storage, could it be that your body is just moving that vitamin D out of storage into an active form in order for you to, oh kitty, just wants to be near me ...

In order for you to actually utilize that vitamin D and have that anti sort of cancer anti-autoimmune affect. Could it be that your body is actually trying to use vitamin D so therefore your storage levels are going down? The other thought I have in my head is, "Well, what about people who live in a northern climate?" We know that one of the primary ways that we get vitamin D is actually from the sun. That is probably the best way that we can get vitamin D, is from UV light. Now, what happens if you're like me and you live in Canada and you spend six months out of the year with the sun so low on the horizon that you don't actually absorb the vitamin D? Well, depending on when you test, could it just be that your body is pulling vitamin D out of storage and activating it because it's March, for example, right now, or I guess it's April now, and it's actually using up those vitamin D stores to support your vitamin D levels through the winter while we are not getting expose to vitamin D.

These are definitely thoughts in my head. So let me know if this resonates with you. Let me know if you're on with me on Facebook live. Let me know if you have any questions about this, because these are definitely things that I have in my head when I think about this. If you want to get a full entire picture, if you want to see that bigger picture of your vitamin D you really should be testing the storage forms along with the active form of vitamin D. Now, you can get this tested. I actually just sent in my blood work last week and I actually got tested for this. You just need to request it.

Now, is a conventional doctor gonna want to test for this or even allow it? I would say there is a pretty good chance not, but I ordered my stuff from a naturopathic doctor, so I pay for it out of pocket.

The form you want to actually get tested for is the 125 Dihydroxycholecalciferol, so it's a very kind of [inaudible 00:18:05] word, but if you're wondering can you repeat that, just Google active form of vitamin D and you'll see that it will be the first thing that comes up. So I think if we are going to be supplementing, you're planning to supplement with high doses of vitamin D. I think first of all you need to look at the storage and the active form. Second of all, you really need to try to be getting that vitamin D from sunlight.

I really don't think that we are meant to take vitamin D supplements in high doses of vitamin D by itself. Because vitamin D by itself doesn't actually exist in any food form. Probably the best place to get it from a food perspective is fermented cod liver oil, I really love the stuff from Green Pasture. That's how a lot of traditional cultures actually supplemented for vitamin D in the winter. Now, if you get enough sunlight in the summer months, you spent enough time outside, you should actually have more than enough vitamin D levels to last the winter.

Now, there is a lot of research that shows if you do have autoimmune disease and you have low vitamin D supplementing it can actually exacerbate the autoimmune disease. I do believe if you have a lot of these mineral imbalances, then taking vitamin D may not actually be a very good idea. It may actually be very counterproductive. The biggest reason why a lot of us are vitamin D deficient is actually due to mal-illumination. So mal-illumination is a thing, it's just like malnutrition, it's because a lot of us aren't getting enough light.

A lot of us are spending all of our time indoors and we're not actually spending a lot of time out in the sunshine, and then on top of that there has been an excessive amount of fear mongering from the media, from conventional medicine telling us that the sun will give us cancer. Now, I'm not telling you to go out there and burn, and burn your skin off and peel and have that experience. I'm telling you to get unfiltered sunlight in the amount that your skin tone needs.

So that's going to vary depending on the person. So if you have very fair skin, if you're like my boyfriend, he's a ginger. He literally probably needs like 10 to 15 minutes maybe 20 of unfiltered sunlight every single day. That's it. That's the big advantage about having a lighter skin tone, is you don't need much to get the necessary UV light that you need on a regular basis.

Me, personally I have Italian heritage so I actually have to spend a fair amount of time in the sun. I need to probably get like 30 minutes daily of unfiltered sunlight. Overall, I don't actually think that, that is that much. Obviously, it depends on the weather, it depends on the clouds that sort of thing. But if you can spend that amount of time outside then you should technically get enough vitamin D. Now, if you're not because you have a chronic illness and your body is not actually utilizing vitamin D properly, you may need to supplement with something like fermented cod liver oil or even better you can purchase a vitamin D light.

Now these aren't cheap, I recommend the Sperti, I'll actually put that in the comments so you guys know what I'm talking about. But there are a lot of them on the market but that is the only one I've found so far that I think is actually a good one. It is a higher price point but if you are someone who suffers with seasonal affective disorder or chronically low vitamin D levels, then that actually might be a good option. You only need to use it for about five minutes every few days to get that vitamin D levels.

The other thing to keep in mind is in order for vitamin D to be activated your body needs to have enough magnesium. Magnesium is one of the most common mineral deficiencies. So I actually believe that not only is true vitamin D deficiency due to mal-illumination but I also believe it's due to magnesium deficiency. People are burning out their magnesium with stress, because people aren't absorbing it properly because they have poor adrenal, poor thyroid function. All these things in the body can affect magnesium. If you don't have proper levels of magnesium then you're not gonna actually be able to activate vitamin D.

So I really think that instead of focusing so much on vitamin D supplementation, we should really be considering magnesium, we should be considering our exposure to sun and how much sun we're actually getting.

So Jamie says, “Are you saying there are no situations where we should take vitamin D in supplemental form?” So I would probably only take it as fermented cod liver oil in a food based form. If you are gonna take vitamin D3 on its own, I probably wouldn't be taking more than a few hundred International Units. I really don't think it's a good strategy, I've seen it cause a lot of issues in mineral balancing, I've seen it exacerbate weight issues, thyroid issues, mood issues, fibromyalgia, I've seen it be a big issue and a lot of my colleagues who work with mineral balancing see it to be a big issue as well.

So I really don't recommend it in almost any case. I really don't think it's helpful, I think it's a result of some of the bigger chronic health issues that we have and I think it can be counterproductive. I think if you are set on taking vitamin D, you really should go look at getting the storage and the active form of vitamin D tested and you should consider getting your minerals tested with a hair mineral analysis. Because if you have high calcium and low Potassium then vitamin D is going to exacerbate that issue. If you have poor levels of magnesium, that's probably a big reason why you're not getting enough vitamin D. And then of course if you never go outside you never get unfiltered sunlight.

If you spend all your time indoors then I would say it's almost a guarantee that you're gonna have issues with vitamin D. [Soon Tu 00:23:50] I hope I pronounced your name wrong, says, "Interesting, my daughters MS specialist is the one who advised her to supplement with vitamin D." Yeah, so I would say it's a pretty trendy thing and it's almost a guarantee that if you go in with autoimmune, something like Multiple Sclerosis or cancer that sort of thing that you're gonna get put on these excessively high levels of vitamin D and I believe it could actually be very counterproductive.

When we give people single minerals or single vitamins without actually knowing what's going on with their mineral and vitamin system, without actually supplementing with the other things that actually support that nutrient, it doesn't work, it doesn't work at all because every vitamin and mineral has an effect on every other vitamin and mineral in the body. They all affect each other, so if you're just taking one thing without supporting the rest of the picture, I mean, it's gonna have all kinds of downstream effects. It's a really sort of tunnel vision way to look at supplementation, to look at the body, to look at vitamins, to look at minerals.

So I actually do not like vitamin D supplementation, it's not something I ever use, I have used it in very specific cases when I've seen low storage form with low active form of vitamin D. So a true deficiency with low magnesium levels in someone who has a fast metabolic type. That would be typically the only situation where I'd recommend it but I don't think I'd ever recommended it more than like 300 to 500 International Units of vitamin D a day, which is significantly less than the five to 10 to 50,000 International Units that I see recommended these days.

All right, guys. So that's all I've got for today. Let me know if you have any questions. I'm happy to answer them. Remember guys I do this Facebook live every single Tuesday at 4:00 PM on my Facebook page K Perry Nutrition. So if you want to interact with me live, if you want to answer, you want to get your questions answered by me, hop on or you can catch the replay or guys if you want to listen to the podcast this episode will go out not this Thursday but next Thursday, it's just the High on Energy podcast.

You can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, GooglePlay, pretty much any podcast app, you can grab it. And guys, if you love this and you're listening on the podcast make sure to give me a five-star review on iTunes. That's the biggest way that you can support me and help me move up on the iTunes chart so we can get this information out to more people. It's free, it takes two minutes and it's pretty much the most powerful way you can support me if you like what I'm doing I would greatly appreciate that. So thanks so much guys, I really, really appreciate your time today. I appreciate you guys hanging out with me. And I will see you guys next Tuesday at 4:00 PM.