No matter how much marketing and sales experience you’ve had, marketing YOURSELF is so different, so much harder than selling a product that isn’t directly tied to you. Amanda Daley experienced this first hand. With 19 years of marketing experience for big corporate businesses, she struggled to sell herself as a health coach. In fact, the first nine months of her business she didn’t have any clients.
After some mindset work and doing the work to determine her ideal client, she went from $0 to $5,000 a month. And today she’s letting you in on what the 5 steps are to reaching that so you too can make $5,000 a month.
The 5 steps to making $5k are: mindset, finding the right business model, client niching, the perfect sales sequence, and saying yes/no to a client.
2. Finding the right business model
3. Have the right eyeballs on you
4. Ask for the dance
5. Soulful sales
To learn more about these steps, tune into the episode.
Amanda Jane Daley is a leading Business Mentor for Health Coaches worldwide. Renowned for her marketing expertise (with over 19 years of experience!) Amanda has earned recognition by the world’s top advertising awards, and has built her own 7-figure coaching business in under 5 years. Founder of the successful health coaching biz 'Fuel Urban Wellness', Amanda combines her business + coaching savvy to mentor other health coaches to start their businesses and learn to make $5K+ per month — and has been dubbed the 'leading expert' for Health Coaches who desire a heart-fuelled business and a freedom-based lifestyle.
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Kendra: Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I am here all by myself, sadly Christine is not with me today. We are recording with a very special guest who is on the other side of the world, managing three time zones was not possible, so you just have me but we have an awesome episode as always for you. I'm actually super excited for this episode because I am interviewing someone who I followed many years ago when I was starting out my business as a health coach, so it's very much a full circle moment and we have like a total OG, the OG business mentor for health coaches.
Kendra: So we are hanging out today with Amanda Jane Daley or Amanda and she is a leading business mentor for health coaches worldwide renowned for her marketing expertise with over 19 years of experience. Amanda has earned recognition by the world's top advertising awards and has built her own seven figure coaching business in under five years. Founder of the successful health coaching biz Fuel Urban Wellness. Amanda combines her business plus coaching savvy to mentor other health coaches to start their businesses and learn to make 5k per month and she's been dubbed the leading expert for health coaches who desire a heart-fueled business and a freedom-based lifestyle. Welcome Amanda.
Amanda Daley: Thank you, thank you. So great to be here.
Kendra: Yeah, I'm super excited to talk to you today and we're going to be talking about five steps to 5k months and I really love that because I think everyone's talking about the 10k months, but when you're only making 1k a month, 10k seems crazy.
Amanda Daley: Totally.
Kendra: I would love to know, why don't you introduce yourself and just tell us like how you ended up here and why you focus on helping health coaches?
Amanda Daley: Yeah, sure. Absolutely. It is so great to be here and so special to hear that you've been following, for all those years, definitely. Yeah, it helps me reflect where I've come from, but when I mentioned the 19 years in online business and marketing, that was my whole life really. My first job was in the startup team of eBay in the UK as a young 21-year-old. And that was all exciting, but I really followed that path through the digital startups and working actually mostly in design and art direction in TV stations and then in Sydney for many years in advertising. And honestly online marketing and everything was like the poor cousin for many of those years, there weren't many of us who were really specializing in it so it's pretty cool to see where the world is today in marketing.
Amanda Daley: That was my background and I love it, marketing is everything to me and the problem is that my body wasn't keeping up with working in that corporate environment. And I literally used to spend every cent I make and run off whenever I could to go heal myself, because I thought I wasn't enough to keep up in the corporate environment. I was struggling really badly with adrenal fatigue, just all a host of issues really. And I was doing energy healing and yoga training and all the things to try and fix myself and to a degree had life-changing results as many of us I think did have a health crisis to get into health coaching, and then at same time it wasn't working.
Amanda Daley: So when I heard about health coaching it was just like, oh my gosh, this light bulb moment. And so of course I jumped and I trained to be a health coach and rather naively in hindsight thought, "Oh, I'll just throw in my whole advertising career and be a health coach because that's going to be easy, isn't it?"
Amanda Daley: I don't know what I thought, but I was that burnt out really at that time. And I guess when you meant to be on a different path, you really will be nudged and I did leave. That was early 2012 that I left my advertising career and started being a health coach. And the first nine months I had no clients, that was the reality.
Kendra: Yeah. It's amazing that you had all this marketing background and still couldn't figure it out. Right?
Amanda Daley: Could not figure it out. And I guess there's many reasons for that. One, I will say straight off I think is because selling ourselves is so much different.
Amanda Daley: You mentioned, my background I was winning international awards for people like Coca Cola, not clients we're proud of now, but big international clients.
Amanda Daley: No worries doing that, so why could I not get even a client? I think the first reason is absolutely that selling ourselves is really, really hard when we're not used to that. And then two, of course I was just copying everything that the schools taught me, which was not wrong, I think I just didn't get it or wasn't able to hear it in that way. So it took me quite a while to piece it together doing any training, and there wasn't specialized health coaching training back then either so piecing together things and what did and didn't work.
Amanda Daley: Yeah, but eventually I got it up and running 5k a month was a real for me turning point when I got to that, you could do that consistency, did that for a number of years. Many people were starting to sign up with me secretly to get business coaching because they could see what I was doing in the guise of needing health help. And I really was very anti it for a long time, moving into business coaching, all I wanted to do was help women, with their energy, with their... It sounds so cliche, but step into their power. What else is possible, expansion? And I did think marketing and business was the devil having come from that, I was so resistant for a number of years, but obviously one thing led to another and 2014 I yeah shifted to being... well during that year transitioned to mentoring.
Kendra: Yeah. Yeah. And now you just love the business and the tech. Right?
Amanda Daley: Well I love all of it. Now that was not of it for me, realizing, not shoving out that part of me. I do know marketing very well. I love it, live and breathe it, but at the same time I love that inner journey and I love all the healing work I've done and it was only when I realized that business was really going to be a conduit for me to do that work with women and I do find business is, as I'm sure you would agree, the biggest personal development journey on earth.
Kendra: Oh my gosh, yes. It is, it is.
Amanda Daley: So yeah, when I truly understood that I was still going to be able to do that work with women and realized what I was sitting on too. I wanted to be a health coach and I wanted to make a difference and I realized all these other people didn't know what I did and what I had pieced together. Yeah, so it all came together and I haven't really looked back, I'm still running the same program I started in 2014
Kendra: Really? Oh my gosh, I'm jealous because I lose interest after a year, I drive myself crazy.
Amanda Daley: Yeah.
Kendra: That's amazing. And I love what you said about thinking marketing and business was the devil probably because where you came from and I feel that a lot of health coaches have that same perception because maybe their experience with marketing and sales is like the shitty vacuum salesman who's tried to sell you a broken vacuum or this like in-your-face advertising where the commercials are on high volume and they're shouting things at you. But of course that's not really what we're doing with health coaches but I think there's such a slimy perception around it, that a lot of coaches don't even want to look into it. Right?
Amanda Daley: Totally. Totally. Yeah.
Kendra: And so I want to keep today super actionable because I know we're going to be going through those five steps. And I'd love to jump into that because I talk to so many health coaches and I know most of them are barely clearing like 2k, 3k a month. And like you said, that 5k was such a turning point for you and I know it would be such a turning point for our audience, like that's when you can start paying your bills, it's awesome.
Amanda Daley: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Do you want me to dive in and...
Kendra: Let's just dive in.
Amanda Daley: Yeah. Cool. So look, step number one for me is actually what we started to talk about a little bit, is mindset and particularly, I often talk about money mindset. Now I'll give this a caveat, I personally feel that where I've grown my business to is 80% mindset, but without the 20% marketing... It's chicken and egg, you've really got to know the marketing steps to be able to do that. But I will start with mindset because we started talking about it.
Kendra: I would love to.
Amanda Daley: There's three particular mindsets that really stand out to me having mentored health coaches for the last seven, eight years. The first one is feeling like a fraud, not feeling expert enough. And I think we all felt that way and everyone can feel that way, but I literally see it from every single person who comes to me and they feel like they're alone. They feel like it's just them. So if we can see this as it's a mindset that's going on in you, but it's not you, it can really help us to understand, all right, this is a beginner thing and feeling like a fraud especially I think for health coaches, it's a new industry, it's not well-known. It's not like a personal trainer where everyone knows what it is. For me, part of this is cumulative when we're looking around at what is out there. I'm not a doctor, Oh, I didn't learn to do lab testing, Oh, I can't prescribe.
Amanda Daley: And I'm a big advocate of really understanding health coaching. Keeping in our lane, and that's a lot of the work I do with clients is my beliefs on health coaching are very much about prevention, very much about don't go to a doctor unless you can look them in the eye and say that you are doing movement, you are eating your veggies. And it's amazing how we beat ourselves up and just can't get in the game because of the fraud complex.
Amanda Daley: So that's probably the top one but equally up there for me is the scarcity. There's already too many health coaches out there, there's no room for me. Why would people work with me? All of that not enough-ness. And then I'd say the third one is low value, which is as healers we feel we shouldn't be charging a lot of money for our services. I mean this person's sick, how could I be charging? And ultimately that comes back to our own self-value, right? And how we value health coaching as well. So those mindset pieces to me got to be in place before we even...
Kendra: Oh yes, I totally agree. And it's funny because I saw so much mindset stuff when I was health coaching and sometimes I felt overwhelmed by it. And then when I went into business coaching I'm like, "Oh, it's going to be so different and we're just going to be talking about strategy and marketing and ads and it's going to be so easy." And then ultimately that's exactly what I was faced with. It's the fraud, which is the impostor syndrome and I think, how I see that manifest is coaches thinking they need to keep taking more certifications in more courses, right? They're just like, "Oh I need to take this training." And health-related trainings, they're not doing any business training. They're just like, "I need to take this certification in health and I need to get my gluten practitioner certification and then I need to learn about this and that." And it's like, well that one certification that you have is really all you need.
Amanda Daley: Totally. Totally. Yeah. The chasing of it and it's like trying to fill a hole that just won't go away if we don't look at these pieces.
Amanda Daley: Yeah. And I personally, the program that I run is a group program, it's a mastermind program and I won't actually work with beginners one-on-one for the reason that I really believe you've got to be around other people and get, this isn't just you this is how we all feel and, you see Sarah yesterday felt like that and now she's putting herself out there and none of us... I work very hard on my programs for my clients to see, I'm not any different than you, this is what I've done, this is the mindset that it's taken. I just want everyone to know we're all in this together and we can make ourselves almost in a negative way too, special. Like, "Oh, it doesn't work for me," Or, "I'm not enough," and all these things and I just find, yeah working in group has been the biggest factor for me personally but also for clients in moving through that.
Kendra: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, because it's true and I think with new health coaches, they don't even realize that these are mindset blocks, they just hear it as truth. So they're not even aware, they're just like "This is how I'm feeling and this is real and this is truth." When it's like, "No, we all feel those things," and even at this level that me and you are at now, we've been in business for over five, six, seven, you 19 years. We still feel it sometimes.
Amanda Daley: Totally.
Kendra: But we just don't let it hold... We know it's not true. We're like, "Oh hello fear. It's you again. Cool." Like, "I see you but I'm going to keep going."
Amanda Daley: Totally, and who you surround yourself with is so key. I mean coaches, mentors, finding someone who holds a new belief but also the people, your peers and people who are masterminds and things like that. So just yesterday, a lady said she got off one of my free trainings buzzing, and got on the phone to a girlfriend and the girlfriend said, "Ah, health coaches don't make money. Don't go into that trap," like this kind of thing and she was down. And I was like, "Well, if you want me to share, this is my reality all day, every day." We find what we look for, don't we? And who we surround ourselves with is a choice and it's so important.
Kendra: Yeah. And it's so true with friends and family, they don't really understand what a health coach does and really they just want you to be safe. And in their opinion, trying to start your own business and be a health coach, that is not a safe path and not one that they understand. So people saying that to you is really just them trying to protect you, but it's because they don't understand. Right?
Amanda Daley: Of course, so that brings us back right to that fraud. It's a new industry and no one understands health coaching. And that's in my opinion, our job to get that out there and to be speaking up and educating people and that comes with being leaders in a new industry.
Kendra: Yes. And it's true. And I love what you said earlier about feeling like, it's a saturated industry and there's too many. It's actually not, because it hasn't been around for that long. We're all like early adopters of this, so there's lots of space.
Amanda Daley: There's so much space, yeah. Totally.
Kendra: Yeah. Okay. So that's your one step is the mindset. And I love that you start with this because I like to start with this as well because it's just like if you don't have the mindset, you're just going to self-sabotage.
Amanda Daley: Yeah. And really that's what you got to keep doing. Right? So that's why I put it there.
Amanda Daley: So the second to me is having the right business model or by right, finding the right one for you. So many people come in thinking like, I'm just going to start selling single sessions or the six-month package from my school or whatever, and they haven't really mapped out, what do you need? And when we want to look at a 5k a month model, for example, the plan that I share with everyone is three to four days a week, three to four clients, or two to three days a week, two to three clients. Now that's just an example, but what I find from most health coaches is they don't want to be millionaires. They don't want to hustle 24/7 and if you do, great but many of them, trainings or business models focused on, like you said before, 10k months, six figure years, whatever at the beginning are really quite intense and that might not be what you want.
Amanda Daley: So I find people either overshooting or undershooting by trying to sell all these single sessions all the time. So actually getting out your calculator and working out first, what's my blueprint? How many clients am I going to need? How to make $5,000 for example, maybe I need five one-on-one clients a month and then we can work backwards in how you do that. But I find that if we don't work that out, especially a lot of people are working full-time jobs and trying to do this on the side or have kids at home, it again comes back to mindset.
Amanda Daley: It's a little bit like, thinking this won't work. Oh I'm too busy, I don't have time. Just getting in the facts, what is it I'm trying to build? How many clients? What's my financial goal? Where will that fit in my calendar? The structural plan if you like, first.
Kendra: Yeah, I love that. And then I think it can be a big wake up call for people, they're like, "Okay, I want to make 5k a month and I'm selling single sessions for $80 an hour." Do the math and you're like, "Oh I have to do 60 sessions or whatever it is a month and I can't find all those clients, and I can't fit that in my schedule."
Amanda Daley: I should know this number because it's in a webinar that I've done probably 20 times. I'm pretty sure the number is 143 you would need, if you wanted $5,000 from one-on-one sessions a month.
Kendra: Wow. It's impossible, you're going to burn out or you're going to just give up.
Amanda Daley: No wonder our brain in the background, right, is saying, "I can't do this. I can't do this." But you think about it again, when comparing to people like naturopaths and chiropractors, they have that many clients. They see 14 clients a day, times five days a week, times four weeks a month, they do. And then they have to try and get them to come back and it just doesn't make sense. So for me, working in what I call purposeful packages and designing a package that then fits that model is just the important foundation to get first.
Kendra: Yeah, I think that's important. And again, it's not their fault because our audience, they probably only have experience with a naturopath, in terms of someone they've seen. But health coaches aren't naturopaths, and in terms at least in Canada, I don't know what it's like in Australia, but a lot of people's extended health will cover the naturopaths service, so they have that going for them. It's maybe a bit easier for them to attract because there's a lot of people who just aren't going to see a health coach. They're just going to go with what's covered and what's on the list of professions. Right?
Amanda Daley: Yeah.
Kendra: But I also think those types of practitioners burnout.
Amanda Daley: Oh I've got a friend who, top-top naturopath and now many years on she's starting to mentor naturopaths, which is fun. But she tells me, "Amanda, everyone wants to be a health coach." Every naturopath wants to be able to work in packages, this is what they see with the health coach industry coming through. So there's always both sides. And so getting that package right is part of the business model, it's like to me one-on-one. And just on that note, a lot of the schools will teach a six-month program and people come out and most beginners would be terrified to go sell a six-month program when they've never done it before.
Amanda Daley: So we've got to find the sweet spot, right, between single sessions are not going to get results and then you're going to feel like a fraud because you're trying to sell something that you know is not going to get results in one session. I don't want to charge, versus six months and I work with clients to find their own package, however, I do find around the 12-week mark, around $1,000 package, can be quite an average of what people come out with and that matches to the 5k model.
Kendra: Right. And it's a good starting point. And I think $1,000 for a lot of people's going to feel like a lot of money, but at some point it's going to feel like you're going to want to bump that up. Right? And at some point what you charge $1,000 for now you might be charging 5k for in the future. Right?
Amanda Daley: And when you've got that business plan, therefore, okay, you've got the plan, you know you're going to do $1,000, you're not confident now, great. Go out and start at $500 or $400. And I always say I'm much more interested in you knowing the plan and knowing the model than how much money you're making because that will come. Yeah.
Kendra: Yeah. And I think I started at $500, I think initially that was my starting point. And I think you learn from that because your $500 package may not always attract the most committed clients and so I got frustrated. So I started raising my prices and at some point I hit a sweet spot where I was like, "I'm not getting as many people but the people I attract are super committed and they're ready and they actually do the work."
Amanda Daley: Love that. Love that. And then obviously the same model scales up. I've got ladies in my mastermind now, my more advanced, mastermind, making up to $20,000 a month from the same one-on-one and then not burning out and they're not even charging super high. Sometimes they might have to book a month or two in advance and then make that bridge but just again on the business model, I don't normally talk about this, but I just feel to say it right now, stick with the one business model that's probably one of my biggest tips. It works and stop looking for the next magical, maybe I should do an eCourse, maybe I should do this. As long as you like one-on-one coaching, stick with that and then allow your prices to go up and do the inner work.
Kendra: Yeah, I love that. And it's true, yeah. You can do really well with one-on-one, and I think it's a good starting point for all health coaches even if your goal is ultimately to sell a course or a group program. That one-on-one stuff is what gives you confidence, experience and it gives you the ability to get people results so that when you sell your course you're not just talking out your ass. Okay, so number two is business model and what's number three?
Amanda Daley: Number three, I changed what I call this one, today I'm going to call it eyeballs. I just like calling it eyeballs. Basically we'll just start with it's, who's my ideal client? Ideal client to me is something that is taught so wishy washy. It's one of those marketing terms that every school, every marketing course has, but ultimately in a nutshell, to me, target market is pain points and desired outcomes and at least for us to be able to talk too, and understand what someone in pain on, what do they want the outcome from. I honestly don't care a lot about how old they are, what job they have, how many kids they have, et cetera. However, I will say it needs to be one ideal client. And by identifying that we can now make our marketing message magnetic, literally if I'm talking to you right now, like I'm talking to you and you can feel it, whereas if I start talking to... Actually, my words have to stop like if I try to start thinking, "I'm talking to 50 people at once."
Amanda Daley: You actually can't do it energetically or physically. So identifying your ideal client and then every day the activity becomes, how can I be seen by that ideal client and ask them to work with me? So there is a two-step within that. Obviously your foundations as a beginner getting player on this is my ideal client, pain points benefits my one client that I'm speaking to and not being scared like you will attract everyone else and that's okay. But really that question for me, once we get into business every single day when we sit at the desk, how can I be seen by my ideal client and I say ask them for the dance. So, that's where our marketing has to start from, so many people, I can't find my clients. I'm sure you must get the same question.
Kendra: It's crazy.
Amanda Daley: How do I find clients, I just need clients.
Kendra: Who are you talking to? This is honestly I've seen this is the biggest blocking factor with new coaches and what I see as one of the main reasons why they're stuck and they don't know what content to create and they just don't know what they're doing. I would love your thoughts on why do so many health coaches resist it? Is that a scarcity, a fear thing? Like they just resist, resist, resist and they're just like, "No I don't want to turn people away. I want to help everyone. I want to be a health detective. I want to help people optimize wellness." And you're like, "No."
Amanda Daley: I think there's so many reasons why we have resistance, because some people basically just don't want to be coaching. And that's definitely, for me to date at the moment anyway, I'll only work in live programs because I do find that resistance, eCourses, et cetera don't tend to work when you have resistance and we all have it. So I'm not saying that won't change in the future, but at the moment that's why I stick with my high touch coaching. There's so many reasons, some of us actually don't want clients. I was working with a top level VIP client yesterday and every time I said, "Okay put out your marketing," it was the response back to me with some jumble about messaging and I had to say, "What's going on here? You could get clients to..." but she couldn't see herself doing it.
Amanda Daley: It was like bouncing out, "Oh, I haven't got my message. Oh, but my website..." And so we have resistance, let's just be honest about that. But resistance is not there to say, "I'm broken. I need to go fix myself before I can be a health coach." We all have it, we've got to move through it. Sometimes I think it comes back to the fraud, we are scared if we get clients that we're not going to get results, so it's much safer if we get stuck in a tangle of, "Oh I can't... my target market," like that is safe. It's a really safe place to get stuck. Secondly though, I do think I'm back to the scarcity, people have in their mind if they only talk to one person that they're not going to get clients. They think it's too tight and they feel bad, "What if I want to help Harry, and Trudy is my target market?" It's great, you have a magnetic message and Harry will come and you're allowed to work with them. It's just actually impossible to have, what I call a magnetic message, if you're not talking to one person because your marketing and everything should feel like, just like the two of us talking right now, having a coffee together. And the biggest thing I see is people coming into this marketing jumbo words that they've come up with for their target market. I don't even understand what you're... this isn't English.
Kendra: Yeah, I know I call it nutritionists language, it maybe makes sense to other health coaches and nutritionists, but it's like when was the last time you heard someone say, "I really just want to create a mindful routine so that I can be the best version of myself."
Amanda Daley: That's the third thing I was going to say, when you ask the question, why do people get stuck there? I always say as health coaches we're a little bit smarty pants. What I mean by that, is we've the training and we know that when you say weight loss, you really have an issue with your relationship, or you really are stressed, and as health coaches... Or maybe we've done mindfulness and we've done all the inner healing work and we want to jump there. And so what happens is we start making these packages and target market that sound like you said, "I'm here to empower women into their most enlightened something." It's like, "Huh?" You and I probably want that but I'm not going to pay for that.
Amanda Daley: This is why I say target market and messaging is more old school one-on-one marketing pain points, desired outcomes. I want the pill, look at all my oils or whatever, what have I got? Like the energy pill, the insomnia pill, this is what we buy. This is how we end... So I always say you need that business brand that is actually boring and then we can see you. We do see if you're putting out content or showing up and getting in front of these eyeballs with your marketing, I'm going to see that your heart-centered. I'm going to see that you're about empowerment. I'm going to see that you're holistic and not a scam. We do see you in your personal brand, when it comes to messaging, people will buy something that they're in pain for, full-stop. And that needs to be the match for this ideal client.
Kendra: Yeah, it's all about meeting them where they're at, right? Like they just started experiencing insomnia and sure, you know that they need to balance their blood sugar, eat breakfast and stop looking at screens at night. But right now all they know is I can't sleep and I just want you to help me sleep. Right? You really just have to lead with that and then your content and obviously your paid offerings are going to educate them on these other things in your presence. But yeah, you just can't make your niche the way that you get them there, it needs to be exactly what they're experiencing.
Amanda Daley: Absolutely. Yeah.
Kendra: Yeah. Okay. So number three is niche and ideal client, which is so important and I love talking about that. So what's number four?
Amanda Daley: Number four is what I call, ask for the dance. My accent is probably funny how I say that.
Kendra: I love your accent.
Amanda Daley: Even here in Australia, they can't understand it. So look, I find in the model that I teach is three boxes. So you've got be seen by your eyeballs, like I said. And the middle one is your discovery session or your sales call. And the third one is your delivery of your program. But how do we get from, I'm seen by new eyeballs, which to me is 80% of your work every day. But what I specifically said before if you listened, was how can I be seeing my ideal client and ask for the dance? And that's the bridge into getting on a call.
Amanda Daley: A coaching business is actually really, really simple, there's nothing more than those three boxes. And actually your job is just to get people on the phone... Is pretty much the job now. People go off and they make websites and flyers and all these things because they're hoping that will get people on the phone and they're doing all these long steps. So actually ask for the dance really needs to be heard, as in ask people to get on the phone, ask people if they want to have a conversation. And it's not 2012 like when I started out and you started out a similar time, where we could just do a blog post with, "Hey send me... If you'd like to get on a call," now we need to still put the call to actions in our social media, and in our pieces like "If you'd like to book a discovery call, and let me know."
Amanda Daley: But we are in the age of DMs and reaching out to people and having authentic relationships. That doesn't mean jumping into someone's direct message and spamming them with, "Hey come work with me." But if you see someone engaging in your posts, you see someone watching your videos, et cetera, start a conversation, get to know them and Instagram's wonderful for this. We do have to go that extra step of actually asking and when you say before, people have the resistance about eyeballs, I see more resistance on this. It's like people just can't hear it.
Amanda Daley: And this is the number one area I've seen when people go that extra relationship building and actually say, "Would you like to get on the phone for call with me?" And to me when we're looking back at the marketing model, 5k a month. Okay you want a client a week? How many discovery sessions? Maybe two discovery sessions a week. That's your job. It might not sound very sexy, but if you're working for me, your job when you get to your desk every day is to book me those two calls a week. And I do find people doing the marketing, and feel like they're being seen but they're not asking.
Kendra: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I see that a lot. And I see it with free opt-ins, I see it with all kinds of things. It's like they say it once and then they never say it again and people aren't even aware of that there's this option to take the next step. You've really got to have something there for your hot leads, so people who are like, they've seen your content, they like what you're doing, they like your personality, they want to buy, but they just don't know how and then they forget, they're gone.
Amanda Daley: Totally. And we are in business, the same plan I said yesterday I was talking to resistance, what was going on and of course it came up like, "Oh my family and friends might think I've been talk about my business too much." At some stage we've got to make peace with that, if you want to be in business, you're going to have to market. And I know that none of us necessarily got into health coaching to be marketers but to find the love for that I think, to find the creativity for that and the piece around it. God, the impact we could be having. And if we say we want to be helping others through our work, we can be doing that through our social and content we create all day, every day, if we truly do what everyone tells me, "I just want to help people." If you do, then go be of service with this content and getting visible and asking people, "Can I help you?" Because they're sitting at home, wanting to be helped.
Kendra: Yeah. And I love that you said creativity in marketing because I find marketing super creative, it's one of the only ways I feel like I'm creative because I don't have any other outlets for it. So I really enjoy it for that. And so I think you just got to find like, you know where your superpower is in terms of content creation and then go spread your message. Go help those people. Go give them value.
Amanda Daley: Absolutely. And we don't need big audiences. I know a lot of things out there talk about needing to build a big list I think you do if you're going to do an online program or something like that, but honestly we all have even just on our personal Facebook page or [inaudible 00:33:09] of things. We don't need big numbers to get two people on the phone a week, we just don't.
Kendra: No, we don't. And I love that and I talk about that a lot, especially these days because maybe 10 years ago, sure it was not that hard to build a massive email list and following because all these algorithms weren't in place and it wasn't as crowded and all this. But these days unless you have a big budget, it's really hard to do that. So it's really about having a quality lesson and just to give the audience some context. I've talked about this a bit before, but I think I had less than 2,500 people combined when I made my first six figures in business and that was across email, Instagram and Facebook. It wasn't that much. It's really not that much, I think anyone can do that.
Amanda Daley: Yes, yeah. And obviously the marketing pieces do need to start coming in of going back to meetings, back to the eyeballs. Even in my advanced mastermind still pretty much 80% is how do we get you seen by more? And one of my top tips there is how can you tap into someone else's existing audience of that [inaudible 00:34:08] can start from scratch and getting back to this, where are the clients, ask a genuine question, where are they? They're following Kendra. Okay, well how can we partner with Kendra? How can we get in front of Kendra's audience? I think we over complicate it, it is basically, can I be seen by my ideal client and then ask for the dance, so that step three and four.
Kendra: Yeah, and I love that you talk about collaboration because I think it maybe can come back to that scarcity mindset. The idea of there's too much competition, like what she does means that I don't get it as much, but it's like there's really room for everyone. There's so many people online and what makes you unique is really your personality and there's no one else who was a personality just like you. So we can collaborate, do this podcast together even though we have similar audiences and still benefit. Right?
Amanda Daley: Oh absolutely. You know, one of the things I've always been proud of in my stage one mastermind is I've never seen at least to my awareness, any sense of competition in there. But I definitely do see when people move on to the more advanced implementation stage that I have. By that level because obviously it takes a while to get your foundations and by year two of your business, I find it's the collaborations between them. Again, you don't need the whole world just a small group of women and I'm sure you have the same in yours, start sharing a podcast with each other and then get each other on as guests. You don't need to even know anyone else. And I see this work pretty well with Facebook live shows, for people starting up. I've got a beautiful woman who actually has a voice impediment and therefore was going to leave because she thought, "I can't do videos and I can't do content," and we set her up with a Facebook live show and she just interviews like all the other ladies in the mastermind. And she's in her element because she doesn't have to be the focus on her vocals for a full hour. And so the collaboration and there's just no need for a sense of competition and I think if anyone does feel that, that'd be a key thing. It's a sense of resistance too, I think, so.
Kendra: Yeah. Oh, I love that. That's such a cool story. Yeah. I mean, really, there is something for everyone and if people don't resonate with you, that's okay, they can go resonate with someone else. Like not everyone is meant for you. And that's okay. It's just like in real life, not everyone's going to like you, you can't be friends with everyone.
Amanda Daley: I remember a mentor saying to me once when I was getting a bit triggered by that, like so many new coaches and so many whatever, and she was like, "You don't want all those people. Amanda," and it really gave me a sense of, "Oh yeah, like we don't want every person in the world." It's like we just want our dream clients, just stay in your own lane. Like I said, get magnetic in your marketing, get really clear. This is where I want to work, get culture and boundaries in that and you don't need everyone. And my little joke too, paraphrasing what she said there, is you probably don't want to work with everyone anyway.
Kendra: Yeah, it's very true.
Amanda Daley: Let other people be the right coach for that person.
Kendra: That's awesome. And so that's number four. And that is, I guess the dance, to get people on the phone, right?
Amanda Daley: Basically. Yeah.
Kendra: All right.
Amanda Daley: So that leads me to step number five, soulful sales and systems. So I think most people are terrified of that sales call and it's definitely something I think, I don't want to quote wrong, but a number of the health coaching schools I believe still do teach something called a health history or something similar as a way of getting on getting someone to buy from you and a health history will not sell. There's a reason that there's a resistance to them. It's valuable information, I think it can be great in session one of your program or something like that, but a sales call, it's soulful when you don't coach, and this is backwards for people.
Amanda Daley: The minute that you coach, you're actually robbing someone of the opportunity, which is supposed to be a discovery of, am I ready to transform, and are you the coach for me? To me, that's the only energy we want in a discovery call. Is this client ready to transform and is this relationship right?
Amanda Daley: It's simple to say, I get it because we bring all our baggage and we need to pay our rent, we need to pay our this. So we bring our money stories to the call and then we bring our, am I good enough in. Often what can happen is we start coaching to prove ourselves, especially as new health coaches, or we start blushing off a whole lot of information to be expert. And we're making that about, "Oh, it's all about me. Am I good enough?" As opposed to a sales call should be 100% about the potential client, almost to the point where you don't even have a script, almost, I do have scripts. And is it true from the energetic process that I take someone through that I teach, which is allowing someone to go high into their dreams.
Amanda Daley: Most people live in what I call the gray zone, and they're too scared and they're trapped. Take someone on that journey, what do you really want? Have you even thought about it? And then take them low and be honest, what's this pain actually doing? Most people, again, shove it down, pretend it's not there and as we open up that we can see what's really going on for the person and if they want to transform. That in itself to me is one of the most valuable things you could gift someone. So you're still giving, you're still giving value. And then the simple question after that is, is now the right time? Are you willing to change? You want to know all of that before there's any conversation of your program or anything like that.
Amanda Daley: And this is hard for me to succinctly put in one point but ultimately what I'm saying is have a way of doing sales that will actually lead to someone making a commitment in themselves, not regurgitating what happened to their parents' health or their current stomach problems. We'll get there but really one of the key pain points... Back to sales messaging, right? Key pain points, key desired outcome. And do they want to go on that transformation? Is it with you?
Kendra: Yeah, I love that you really want to find the right people because if they're not committed and you sell them into your program, then they're not going to get results. You're going to be banging your head against the wall and it literally kills your soul when you have this client who you want to help and they can't help themselves. Right?
Amanda Daley: Yeah. And we've got to be really clear on that as well I think, that as health coaches, I think we all are in so much integrity of what we give. Most people will over-give but one of the biggest healing pieces of my journey was really understanding, that I can never make my client do that work. I cannot be responsible for that. Like in the early days of business coaching, myself and my assistant used to not sleep after a call. We're trying to work out Sally's issue, and why is Sally's business... And I really have come to a place of peace and I hope I can pass that to everyone sooner rather than later. As coaches, we're not meant to be God, we're not meant to be someone's savior, we're not meant to do the work for them and we want clients who want to change. It's part of that first call, if that's not there, why would you put yourself through that? It's going to loop you back to step one of feeling like a fraud and terrified of getting on coaching calls. Because of course, we've got to give everything and of course, we've got to do our best as a coach. But more often than not, we're actually sabotaging by trying to solve everything, especially on that first call instead of leaning back and seeing, "Hey, do you want to make a change?"
Kendra: Yeah, I love it. And I think I've started calling them... I'd tell people don't even call them sales calls, they're just qualifying calls or enrollment calls. You're just qualifying this person to see if they're going to be the right fit for your program and if you can actually help them. But I love what you said about, we're not their saviors. We can't save our clients, they have to save themselves, we're just here to guide them. And I think it's important to make that really clear that when we work together, I'm going to be giving you guidance, but you're only going to get the result if you actually do the work, right?
Amanda Daley: Totally. And not being afraid, once you are coaching. If someone's not getting the results, don't blame yourself, speak to it. Call it out, I mean in a loving way that, "Hey Sarah, how are you going so far? You know I've noticed that some of the pieces of homework that I've given you, you haven't necessarily taken action on. Do you want to go back and review why?" That is very different than sitting at home going, "Oh my God, Sarah's not losing weight." Well, why? The only reason can be that she's not taking action or don't take responsibility, and then lean in and say, "What else could we do here together?" You're going to be so much more connected in hearing what's needed, than if you're in your head going, "Oh my God, I'm not good enough, she's going to leave. She's going to..."
Amanda Daley: But again, I know it's easier said than done, start with a really soulful sales process and systems. The three systems that I always believe need to be part of that are, how to book calls, how to take payment, how to do a contract. And I think just by having those smart pieces set up in the background, then we can relax when, "Oh my God, the shock, someone actually wants to buy from me," the first client, and then we're like, "Oh, how do I do this?" If you can just have those there, you can feel supported, you can trust the process and to me too, there's an energetic flow in that. When your pipeline is set up, you can just, "Okay, let's get on the phone and I know what to do, if they're the right person for me."
Kendra: I love that. That's awesome. Okay, so let's just quickly review those steps. I'm like already like forgotten them. So let's go through them just so the audience remembers and then we'll let them know how they can get in touch with you.
Amanda Daley: Absolutely. So first step is mindset, specifically the three, the fraud, the scarcity, the low value for health coaches, and who you surround yourself with. So mindset, mindset, mindset. Step two is business model, getting really clear, how much do you want to make? How many clients is that going to take? How many hours a week? Where's that going to fit in your schedule? Does that fit for you and your values and your lifestyle? Step number three is all about those eyeballs. So identifying the ideal client and then every day, how can I be seen by more eyeballs, into step four and ask for the dance. So step four is really about asking, leaning in, having the conversations, not waiting for someone to engage with you, you're going to them. And then step five was the soulful sales and systems.
Kendra: Awesome, I love it. I think that's great. And I hope this helps everyone make 5k a month. And I just see in her notes that you have a freebie for our audience. Hey?
Amanda Daley: Yeah, we've actually set up a page for you. So @amandajdaley.com that's the letter J in the middle of my name there, AmandaJdaley.com/360, we have set up some of my top health coach goodies for your audience.
Kendra: Awesome. Thank you so much. And I guess so your website is just AmandaJdaley.com and then your social media was Amanda Jane Daley. So we'll put that all down in the show notes for everyone if you want to connect with Amanda and have her help you because, guess what? I think everyone needs a coach and mentor.
Amanda Daley: Absolutely. I love meeting any health coach. I'm so passionate about where this industry is meant to go, and any questions anyone's got or anything at all. I also have a Facebook group, Healthy Wealthy Society, which is where I mostly hang out. So I might mention that, because that's if anyone just wants to ask everyday questions about health coaching, or I know a lot of people probably aren't even in health coaching yet. We get a lot of people in there just wanting to check out the industry. So yeah, it's my favorite place to hang out.
Kendra: That's awesome, I actually think I'm in that group. I just really have not engaged in there in a while, but I think I'm in there.
Amanda Daley: I'll keep an eye out for you.
Kendra: Well thank you so much, that was super valuable. That's really, really good info for the audience. So definitely go follow Amanda, everyone. And thanks guys for listening. And we will be back in one week with our quick episode, our Biz Bomb series where we give you a super juicy tip for your business and then your brain explodes because it's so good. So we'll see you in a week and thanks for joining guys.
The biggest mistake that I see new health coaches making is that they resist narrowing down and choosing a niche. Instead, they try to talk to everyone which leads to them being totally generic and honestly boring.
As my mentor, Sunny Lenarduzzi says, you have to niche down to blow up, and I couldn’t agree more. The longer you actually resist choosing an ideal client and finding your niche in business, the longer you are going to struggle to grow. You are going to struggle to get clients and even more, you're going to be totally overwhelmed and confused about what content to create. Because when you don't know who you're speaking to, you don't know what content to create for those people.
In my video, I'm going to take you through the five biggest mistakes health coaches make when trying to determine their niche.
1)Trying to help everyone
A lot of coaches believe that by getting too specific or narrowing down their niche, they are actually going to turn people away. But I guarantee by trying to help everyone, you will literally help no one because your content is going to be general and it won't connect with anyone. It’s so important from an attraction standpoint that you get specific who you’re talking to. And honestly, the more hyper niche or more specific you can get, the more success and the faster you will have that success.
2) Having more than one niche
If you’re trying to solve too many problems at once, it may come across as ingenuine and pretty confusing. People don't really understand health coaching and the fact that a lot of the changes we make can actually help all different kinds of conditions. So when you're out there claiming to solve 10 different problems, people don't believe you and they think you're ingenuine and they're going to go to the person who solves the one problem that they actually have.
3) Overthinking it
Clarity only comes from action. And you will not know if anything actually works until you get out there and test it. So don't overthink it. Choose one topic that you are excited to talk about and then go out there and start to get to know those people. See how it feels and who you're attracting and if it doesn't feel good, then change it! I've done this multiple times in my business in five years. I've probably done it three or four times. You can always switch it, but you will never know if it's going to work for you until you get out there and give it a go.
4) Using generic language
Here’s an example of being too generic: I'm going to help you take your health to the next level. I help women be the best versions of themselves. I help you prevent future disease. I help you get to the root cause of your chronic health condition. I help you live your best life. I want to help you create your dream life. I help you reduce those annoying symptoms. Huh? This is very generic language and to be quite frank, nobody speaks that way. You need to get on your clients’ level and actually figure out what are the words they're actually using. How do they actually describe what they are going through and what do they truly want to achieve? You really have to nail down those pain points and what they're actually feeling. And honestly, the only way to do this is to get out there and talk to them. To do this you have to engage with your audience, listen and learn from your clients and pull on some of your own personal struggles to relate to your clients.
5) Using nutritionist language
It’s really important to get on your client’s level and talk to them in a way that they understand. So if you are going to do adrenal fatigue, you might niche in fatigue and then teach them throughout your content that it could potentially be their adrenals. If you wanted to niche in leaky gut, you actually might talk about bloating and gas and then eventually teach them in your content and programs that they could have leaky gut and how you can help with that.
If you are still confused about niching, make sure to download my Find Your Money-Making Niche. If you want some feedback on your niche or the niche that you were thinking of niching in, make sure to let me know and I will give you my feedback.
In today's business world, you honestly can't go that far without finding someone preaching about the necessity of hustle in order to grow your business. But is a hustler's mentality really needed in order to grow a business? In my opinion, it's not and I actually believe that it's totally detrimental to your growth. In my video, I'm going to teach you that you don't actually need to hustle to be successful and what you should actually be doing instead.
The reason why I decided to become a health coach is because I was struggling with chronic fatigue and chronic insomnia. I was tired all the time, which meant that I wasn't able to work that long without giving myself a break. And because of this, I always had to be careful about how I managed my time and energy because otherwise I would burn out. So when everyone started glorifying this hustle thing, I called bullshit because I in fact grew a multiple six figure business without hustling because I needed to rest a lot and not overwork.
Personally, I hate the word hustle because it implies that in order to be successful in business, that you have to, well, hustle. Or that you have to work yourself into the ground and stay up late at night and prioritize your own health in order to make money. The problem is that hustle doesn't actually guarantee your success and it doesn't guarantee that you are focusing on the right things. And more than likely, you're just going to burn yourself out. So if this hustling thing does not resonate with you, that's okay. It doesn't resonate with me either, so do not feel guilty about not hustling.
So if you're just hustling and burning yourself out, you're a poor role model for your clients and they are going to see right through you. So in my opinion, you cannot be a hustler health coach and be successful because I don't think anyone will really want to follow a health coach who eats like shit, who stays up late and doesn't take care of themselves. They will see right through that, like I said, and that is inauthentic. And if you want to learn more about how to be authentic in online business, make sure to check out my video, Authenticity Marketing.
Now that we're on the same page about hustling, let's talk about how to grow your business the anti-hustle way.
1) Learn to say no.
aying no and setting boundaries can feel totally crazy at first and it can feel really overwhelming, but saying no is actually the highest form of expression of self love and self respect. So when you are a new health coach, it can be really easy to get hungry for opportunities or get distracted by what I call shiny objects in disguise, which are opportunities that seem totally golden at first, but when you break them down, they don't actually help grow your business. In fact, they're probably helping grow someone else's business. Or it may present itself as an opportunity to make fast money, but in the long run, it doesn't actually lead to your bigger mission.
2) Determine your freedom number.
With hustler mentality, a lot of people will continue to grow their business without taking into consideration what they need for happiness. Grow your business to the point that it is aligned with your lifestyle. So me personally, I love minimalism in business and I don't want to grow a multiple seven figure business unless it's absolutely aligned with my lifestyle. If growing my business bigger means working more and having less time for my self care, for my outdoor time and for my relationships, then that is actually not something that I want and I will cap my growth at the level that it needs to be in order to align with that lifestyle.
3) Focus on cultivating a community.
Instead of going out there and hustling like a maniac, focus on cultivating and building relationships instead. When you build real human relationships with your audience, what you do is actually create return customers and fans. If you have a follower who really buys into your mission and what you do, then they are going to purchase and invest in every single thing you put out there. When you focus on creating a community and building real relationships, you can sell to these people over and over again because they like you, they trust you, and they buy into your mission.
You don't need to hustle when you cultivate real human relationships with your following. And the honest truth is you don't actually have to grow a massive following to be successful when you consider the relationship community connection. If you focus on having a quality and engaged following by building community, by building relationships, then you don't need to hustle and keep seeking new customers because you already have your super engaged, super friend customers who are willing to invest in anything new that you put out there.
I really want to share my story with you - how I went from depressed, anxious, struggling to make money, doing really interesting jobs like planting trees and fighting fires to having a multiple six figure coaching business that teaches health coaches and other wellness entrepreneurs how to build their business. But we have to go back to the beginning.
I grew up in a town called Dunn Robin in Ontario, Canada and we were right on the Ottawa river. Because of its size, it felt more like a lake and all my neighbors had cottages there, but I was one of the few houses of people who lived there year round. When I was about 10, me and my best friend used to dive to the bottom of the Ottawa river to get this clay that we would boil with essential oils and sell door to door as face masks. So I guess you could say I always had an entrepreneurial mind. I wasn't just an entrepreneur at 10 years old though - I was a multi-streamed entrepreneur. We would always have these little garage sales, lemonade stands and we'd always be selling all our toys. We were always hustling and trying to make money.
I was a big timer skiier from the age of 12 to 19 and I was the first Canadian to ever place in a half-pipe con competition in Canada when I was 19. But I had this dream of moving West to be in the mountains and ski. But after competing for six years in high school and being pushed super hard by my parents and my coaches, I was burnt out from skiing. So once I graduated high school, I decided I wanted to be a city girl and moved out West to the prairies for university.
I moved into first year residence and started my major in kinesiology. Let's just say I had a lot of fun in university, but I was lost, like most of us were in our 20's. I was partying a lot but I still graduated with honors. About two years after living in the city, I really started to realize that I really missed the outdoors. So I decided to get a job as a tree planter and travel in the in between time, but I still had the itch to be in
a ski town.
After a trip to South America, I moved to Nelson, an amazing paradise in British Columbia which is where I still live today. It's full of amazing restaurants where all the food is organic, gluten free and paleo. I spent that winter skiing and ski touring and ended up being a forest firefighter during the off season.
In March of 2011 I decided to jump off this cliff just two days before the end of my season, right before I was set to go on another trip. I landed funny and I blew my knee out. It was super painful. But I ended up going to Thailand two days later. My friend who I went with literally carried me all around Thailand.
Throughout that summer, I worked really hard to rehab my knee. But unfortunately when I went back to skiing that following winter, as soon as I got on skis, I could tell something was off. I ended up getting surgery in February of 2012 and this is one of the most defining moments of my life. I was lying there all fucked up on drugs on the operating table. The surgeon goes into my knee and he said "your meniscus is fine but your ACL is in shreds and you're going to need ACL reconstructive surgery." I felt like my life was over because the ACL basically holds your knee together. And as a skier, that is really important.
I felt like my life was over. It was a really lonely time. I realized that at time all I have is skiing and the outdoors.
The surgery was a big trigger for my health issues that ensued after that. I went through a horrible period of insomnia and fatigue. And to be honest, my health has really never been the same since. I went through this incredibly hard two years where I was exhausted and sick and I was also rehabbing my knee. I had started doing a distance diploma in holistic nutrition, which I wasn't finding super valuable. But one day when I was listening to The Underground Wellness podcast with Reed Davis, the founder of Functional Diagnostic Nutrition, and Sean Croxton. They were talking about FDN and I was like, Oh my God, that is so cool.
That's what I wanted to do. So I enrolled in the FDN course and I started doing that. I graduated in 2014 and I was really committed to following all the FDN protocols for my own health and I saw a lot of improvement. I thought I'm going to be a health coach and I'm going to build a business. But it was scary because I was still working forestry.
I got laid off from forestry in December of 2014 and in 2015 I was on EI. I was trying to figure out how to make my own income and that I just didn't know how to do. Luckily in March of 2015, the FDN team reached out to me personally and asked me to apply for a mentor position.
I thought, if I can get this part time position, this is going to pay me just as much as I was making full time in forestry and I can build my business on this on the side. So I made that decision. I built my health coaching business for those first three years while working part time for Functional Diagnostic Nutrition.
I eventually became a Clinical Advisor for hair tissue mineral analysis testing. And at one point, I became the Director of the postgraduate membership, the association for functional nutrition professionals. And from that I learned how to grow and engage a community. That's where I started to learn a lot of my marketing skills to try to help them build that membership. And at the same time I was working my ass off to get clients on the side.
Even when it felt uncomfortable, even when I was terrified, even when I felt like I had no idea what I was doing, I just kept doing it. I launched a course four times where I lost money. I launched a program that didn't really get any signups. I did a lot of things that didn't work, and it totally sucked, but I just kept on going because this was the only option for me. So I ended up building that business to six figures and I did this while simultaneously working part time for FDN.
I'm telling you this is because if you still have a side hustle, if you're still working another job to help you pay the bills, like you can still build your business part time. It is totally possible because I did it. You just need to be really intentional with how you utilize your time and you probably need a coach. Once I hired a coach, it really helped me actually no what I needed to be focusing on.
I just got so obsessed with the business side of things and what I sort of realized was that I am way more passionate about business and marketing than I am about health and working with clients. I felt out of alignment. I just knew that something was off and I realized that I really just wanted to start talking about business and I noticed something incredibly glaring when I was working as a health coach in the FDN community and some of the other health coaching communities I was a part of.
We need health coaching, we need functional health practitioners. And if they can't build their business, if they can't make money or get in front of their ideal clients, then those people aren't going to get helped and they're going to continue to be sick. So it really became my mission to end health coach poverty. In 2019, I started focusing on business and marketing. Within a year I continued to grow and I stayed steady at that multiple six figures.
I hope with sharing my story that you know building a business is not something you can do in 90 days. It's something that really builds over a lifetime and it takes time to build it. I am now in my sixth year of business. So it wasn't an overnight success.
Maybe there's one person on earth who's done it before but don't believe people who tell you that. We're always going to be evolving. Our business is always going to be evolving. We're always going to be making mistakes, having things not go the way that we want them to. And that's okay because that will always bring us closer to the success that we are really looking for.
Check out part 2 of the 360 Health Biz Podcast email marketing series.
In this episode, Christine & I discussed two important items:
- the legal stuff of email marketing
- email nurture sequences
One is unsexy, one is VERY sexy. Can you guess which is which? If you guessed the email nurture sequence is the sexy one, you are correct!
In the episode we provide 6 email nurture sequence ideas, and NONE of these emails include selling!
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Christine H.: Hello, and welcome everyone, to this new episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. Today, you have your two favorite hostesses with the [most-esses 00:00:11] in the Health Biz Podcast world. Miss Kendra Perry from Canada, being snowed in right now. Then, Christine Hansen from Luxembourg, where it's actually pretty sunny for this, generally. We're really excited to be with you today, as we are recording our second episode on email. How to write your email, how to structure it. We already talked about it in the last episode, so check that out. Today, we're mainly going to talk about how to make it work for you to do sales.
Christine H.: Stay tuned, but before we dive deep into the nitty gritty of this, we have a lovely, lovely listener who we adore who left us a review. Here's what's been said about us.
Kendra Perry: Okay, so we have a review from Jennifer [Blaugh 00:00:58], and I hope I said your last name right, Jennifer. She is an FDM. The title of her review is, "Seriously on-point content." Thank you, Jennifer. She says, "I am a fellow FDM, and I am trying to ramp up my health pushing business. I've been listening to all sorts of podcasts and webinars. This one is legitimately chock-full of great content, relevant information and useful, actionable advice. Seriously great stuff. Thank you, ladies, for all your hard work." Well, you are welcome, Jennifer, and we fucking love you.
Christine H.: Yes. Yes, we do. We love this so much. My little heart is singing right now.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine H.: This is amazing. Thank you. We're going to do our best to spoil you rotten in this episode as well. As email marketing is a huge, huge thing. A tool that is not easy. I think a lot of it can go wrong, but it's also the first thing that a lot of us are confronted with. Today, we're going to basically pick up on our last conversation. To let you know, first of all, how can you stay on the legal side, and then how can you make people just give you their money like a buttery, sweet transaction leaving everyone happy? Kendra, let's begin.
Kendra Perry: All right. We're going to bore you a bit first, so stick with us. Then, we're going to get into the sexier stuff. We do want to address the legal stuff, just because it is really important. You want to make sure you're not breaking the law with email marketing. Then, we're going to talk about email nurture sequence. You may not know what it is. Actually, a lot of the coaches I've talked to don't know what it is. We're going to talk about what that is, and why you need one, and how to do it. We're going to give you a step-by-step process.
Christine H.: Yeah.
Kendra Perry: We're going to be talking a bit of the legal stuff. Christine is going to speak to the GDPR stuff, which is the European rules, because she's more familiar with that. I just wanted to speak to some of the Canadian and American rules. This is one thing that's across the board. You need to get people's permission to email market to them. If you have a bunch of people's emails from something else, and they didn't give you their email address knowing that you were going to send them marketing emails, you actually can't use their email. You're not allowed to do that. That's completely illegal, and it's against privacy. You don't want to do that. You always want to make sure that people know they're opting in, you have people's permission to use that email.
Christine H.: Yeah, so maybe to give you a concrete example, let's say you go to a networking event and you exchange business cards. You are not allowed to take those business cards and type that email address of that person into your email marketing software. First of all, it's not polite. People are going to be annoyed at you, because when it happens to me, I get furious. It's also illegal. Anyone who gives you their email address that doesn't explicitly say, "Okay, you are allowed to send me new, or regular updates," basically that's illegal.
Christine H.: The same is also, and i know that a lot of people do giveaways, or if you are having a fair, you have things where you can win something, and then the entry, not tickets basically, have the email address of the person as well. You do need to have it a disclaimer somewhere that really, clearly states that you are going to email them regularly. Otherwise, again, you're a criminal, basically.
Kendra Perry: You're a criminal. A way that I do this that makes it really obvious. On all my landing pages where I'm offering something for free, the button always says, "Join my list, and you'll get the free guide." It always says that so it's very clear that they're joining my list. Yeah, you just want to be really obvious with that, because I have come across the people who are like, "Oh, I have all these emails from my personal training clients. Can I use that?" I'm like, "No." You could email them and say, I'm going to be sending out emails on this. Are you interested? Do you want to be on this list? If they say yes, then you can use that email but you do need to get their permission first.
Christine H.: Exactly. The same is true, actually, when you do sales calls, or preliminary sessions or whatever you call them. The people who leave their email address there to get a reminder of a call, they did not accept to be on your email list. Unless you tell them that they are going to be added, and have a checkbox to ask them whether they are okay with that or not, you cannot just connect your scheduler to your email software, and then automatically add them. It sounds so easy, and it wounds like, "Okay, I'm going to get a little leads," which I agree, but it's not legal.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Something you can do, like what I do, is I do add my clients to my email marketing list if I ever have to send communication to my clients specifically, but I exclude them from all the marketing emails. They're literally just getting the occasional email, like, "I just raised my prices. Here is the information. This is changing." Anything that's specific to client communication where I want to email all of them, but they don't get the marketing emails. That's really important.
Kendra Perry: Now, in terms of opting in, there is something called a single opt-in, and a double opt-in. The single opt-in is when you literally just put your email into that landing page, or that pop-up. Then, they automatically get the thing. A double opt-in is where they put their email address in, and then they get another email that says, "Confirm your subscription," or something like that, so they have to double opt-in.
Christine H.: They have to click on that.
Kendra Perry: Now, from what I can tell, and I know it was like this. I can't tell if it changed. I went online and did some research, but in the US you can have a single opt-in. In Canada, you have to have a double opt-in. If you're a Canadian, you're going to go with that double opt-in option, because that's the law. In the US, you can have single opt-in.
Kendra Perry: You can get this set up. All the email providers will have this option. You can turn it off, you can turn it on. It's usually just the clickable button anytime you are building out your sort of little email sequence, or little form. If you are in Canada, and I don't know if you know that in terms of Europe. Do you need a double opt-in?
Christine H.: I am not sure, to be honest. I don't think so, but I would actually check on that in a second.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, so we'll throw that in the show notes.
Christine H.: Yes, exactly, but I don't think so. I don't think you need the double opt-in necessarily, no.
Kendra Perry: Okay.
Christine H.: There's different statistics as well that show that if you have a double opt-in, the people who actually bother to click that link are going to be much more likely to actually engage with your emails.
Kendra Perry: Yes.
Christine H.: Even if it's not a requirement, it might be a good practice to already filter tire kickers who are just going to take space in your email marketing software. Just to make sure that you have primo material in there.
Kendra Perry: Exactly, yeah. I agree. Just that extra step, because a lot of people just get shiny object syndrome. They're just like, "Fuck yeah, I want to opt in," and they just opt in for all these things. Then, they never actually go to their email and check that, right?
Christine H.: Exactly. This is something which, actually we can talk about this right now. If you do this, basically what happens, when people fill in their email address and they click submit, or get now or whatever, you usually have a choice from your email marketing software to either just reload the form, or to send them to a different page. Whatever you choose is fine, but there should be a little message popping up, telling them to check their inbox, check their spam box or their junk folder, to make sure that they get that second email.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine H.: If you don't, people might just be frustrated because they think it's not working, when it's actually in their spam. We always recommend to personalize, and customize that, and already do that in your voice. If you're someone like Kendra and I, we would probably say, "Woop-woop," or something like that. You're good, now go over to your inbox and make sure that we didn't land in your spam folder. A sad face, something like that. Make sure you-
Kendra Perry: Yup. You bring up a good point there, and I think it's also a good point. You know, so many of you guys just have forms on your website? Then, when people opt in, nothing happens. I've seen a few websites where it's like, you get the thing but there's nothing that tells me what's going to happen next, and just so remember, they're giving away something that's personal. You need to make them feel...
Christine H.: Protected.
Kendra Perry: ... protected by saying, "Awesome. You're in. That guide, or that checklist is on its way to your inbox. It's going to be there in five to 10 minutes, so make sure to check your promotions or spam. If you have any issues, this is my support email where," you know.
Christine H.: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kendra Perry: Sometimes, forms are broken, right?
Christine H.: Yeah.
Kendra Perry: If you have someone opt in for something and they don't get the thing, and they have no way of contacting you to be like, "This didn't work," that trust is gone.
Christine H.: Yeah. Agreed.
Kendra Perry: Just saying.
Christine H.: Totally. The second thing that I find will distinguish you from the crowd is that confirmation email that is coming then. A second email that is going to be, "Click here to..." I don't remember what they say, it's a confirmation email. Usually, your email software will allow you to customize that, so brand it. Brand it according to how the newsletters are going to look like afterwards. Write it in your lingo. Tell them, "You are our favorite. Now, just click this little thing and we're good to go." Something that you would say so that people immediately see that you're not a robot, and it's not just tack, but it's actually you behind your business. I find that really makes you stand off on the crowd. You can make it a bit funny.
Kendra Perry: I would say the other thing too, is in the subject line, what I always put is in brackets, "Download," and the name of the thing.
Christine H.: Yes.
Kendra Perry: Make it really obvious so they're like, "I'm downloading this free sleep guide," and it says, "Download, Free sleep guide." I'm not searching for it. It's not some fancy email subject that I don't recognize as what I just downloaded. That's really important. In that confirmation email, this is not a time to sell, this is not a time to offer anything. Literally, keep it short and sweet. Say, "Thanks for downloading the guide, this is awesome. Here is the download button." They're just warming up at that point, so it's not time to pitch a course, or pitch a service, or even your free call in that email.
Christine H.: No, no, no. Don't do that.
Kendra Perry: Before we get into email sequence, could you just briefly speak to, Christine, just the GDPR [inaudible 00:10:59]? I think that's important for, I think everyone. Not just your emails, right?
Christine H.: No, I agree. Yeah, so GDPR has been creating [inaudible 00:11:05] especially in that two years ago when it came out. Basically, what it is, you need to know that it was a huge problem that too many people got spam emails. The European Union basically made it illegal to collect data. Well, illegally as we've discussed it now, but also certain types of data, and you have to have a structure within your company. There needs to be a designated person who is taking care of that. You need to make sure that you're never going to give the information that you gather from your people to a third party. All of that was created, and thrown out there. It's easy if you're a huge company and you have a legal team taking care of it. If you're a small business, it can be completely overwhelming.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine H.: In the beginning you had all worst case scenarios. Truth is that there hasn't been a single legal case done yet, so there is no previous court case yet. Chances that someone is going to pick on your little company to be the first one is very, very unlikely. There's different things that you can do. The double opt-in is one thing that is going to protect you straightaway. The other thing that you need to do is, you need to have a little checkbox below the opt-in form, which means there's a little box that people fill in their email address. We've discussed this before, if you want to add their first name or not. This little box, they need to check the box where they really give you consent through that. There again, the wording can be, "I agree with terms and conditions," or, "I agree with your privacy..."
Kendra Perry: Policy?
Christine H.: It used to be a bit tricky, because obviously the emails are being stored on your email marketing service. The questions was, is that a third party seller or not? I think no answer has really been found yet. There's a lot of nitty gritty on that. I'm not a complete legal expert on it. What I can recommend you to do, and I know that the Being Boss team, they have a podcast which I actually recommend, they have done tons of research on that. They spend a lot of money on that, and they have a great podcast episode on that too. Go, and check that out.
Christine H.: For the rest, I invested in a GDPR template that was developed by a lawyer here in Europe. I think she was German, I'm not sure. It's basically the linguistics, it's highlighting when you have to fill in your own things. It will ask you to have an office designated for all of this, but if you're a one-person company obviously you are going to be the officer. It just means that there needs to be a person that is good to be responsible for the information that you are collecting.
Christine H.: I think the little checkbox is the most important one. Personally, I also have to say that I'm a slacker, and I haven't done it. I also have to say that different email software is so much better at this than others. I know that MailerLite has one that is GDPR compliant. You just tick that box when you set up your opt-in box, and you just say you want your advert, and it is filled with GDPR compliant lingo. You basically don't have to worry about it.
Christine H.: The negative thing is that they can be off-putting to people. Every step that you're adding to the process of people giving you their information is going to put them off. It's literally the easiest, the quickest is the best. I also have to add that, of all the European websites that I've seen so far, there's not many that are actually doing this. Literally, none.
Christine H.: I think it was just a huge scare two years ago or so, and right now people are breathing again and it's loosening up again a little bit. What I would suggest you do is to have a double opt-in and to have a little checkbox next to your email box to make sure that people know that they are giving you their information, and where you say that you won't sell it, or that you won't share it with a third party. Then, you're good to go.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Yeah, and I just want to mention that-
Kendra Perry: Yes.
Christine H.: Sorry. That's one thing that you need to have.
Kendra Perry: The other thing I just want to mention is, this is something that applies to more than just Europeans. If anyone is opting in from Europe to your page, that technically makes you need to have [crosstalk 00:16:01].
Christine H.: ... reliable.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. If you don't know where your people are coming from, and I guarantee there might be one person, a few people, or even an American or a Canadian who are just in Europe traveling.
Christine H.: Exactly.
Kendra Perry: I think the double opt-in is a good way to go.
Christine H.: It's a good way to go. It's not compliant... That's not what I want to say. It's not mandatory. It's not something you need to do, but I just think you are covering your bases a bit if you have it, and make it fun. It's a pain-in-the-ass, but make it fun.
Kendra Perry: Definitely.
Christine H.: That would be a good one. All right.
Kendra Perry: All right, let's stop with the boring shit.
Christine H.: We already gave some good shit there, on how you can it less boring, so that's fun.
Kendra Perry: Okay, we're going to be talking about email nurture sequence, which is basically... it is a sequence of emails that you send new subscribers. The whole purpose of it is to build trust, to have them get to know you and your sort of method, and also how you can help them, right?
Christine H.: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kendra Perry: I can't remember the touch points, but usually before people invest, I read it was 36.
Christine H.: 36?
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine H.: Crazy.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, that's what Chalene Johnson said on her Build Your Tribe. She said it used to be much smaller, but these days it's about 35 or 36.
Christine H.: Oh, wow.
Kendra Perry: I might be a bit off on that number. What that means is that they need to see 36 different pieces, or come into contact with your brand 36 different times before they're ready to buy. That might be that they listen to a podcast episode, and then they receive an email. Then, they see a social media post, and then they get another email. That's the thing. That's why it's really important not to pitch too quickly, because it can people a really long time to warm up. I had two touch points with certain people and me, personally, I invested really quickly in certain people's things because I just connected instantly, so it's not going to be true for everyone. For some people it's going to be longer, right?
Christine H.: Yes.
Kendra Perry: That email sequence really just helps them get to know you, and decide if they like you and just get familiar with who you are, what you do and how you can really help them. I've seen email sequences be three emails, I've seen it be up to 30-40 emails. Again, it's going to be different for everyone.
Kendra Perry: Again, it depends on your business. You may have to test different lengths. For new people who haven't done this before, I usually recommend a six-email sequence. I think that's enough time to sort of tell your story, introduce your method and gain a bit of trust with your audience. We've already talked about email number one, which the only purpose of email number one is to deliver your free offer, and also, I say, set the stage.
Kendra Perry: I always tell people, if you're sending them another email, I just say, "I'm going to be sending you a few emails over the next couple weeks that's going to teach you about this, this and this." Tomorrow, or two days from now, or in an hour from now, or however you set it up, "I'm going to be sending you an email titled," insert subject line, "Stay tuned for that email."
Christine H.: Yes, great. [crosstalk 00:19:09] The other thing I really quickly want to mention is that we call it either email nurture sequence, or an email funnel. I just want to say that these two things are the same. It's just different lingo in marketing. Then, also it really depends, as Kendra said, on what your business is. If you want to sell products, if you want to sell coaching services, which I guess most of you do. It also depends on the price point. What do you want to sell at the end of your funnel?
Christine H.: The first thing you should do, and I think we were already talking about that when we discussed the freebie, which is people actually want, and give you their email address that triggers all of this. It has to be created with what you want to sell at the end of the sequence, right?
Kendra Perry: Yes.
Christine H.: We talk a lot about this, but you need to have the goal in mind first. Then, reverse-engineer it. What is your end goal so that you can seed, slowly and subtly, without shoving it down their throat. Have that in your mind first, and then email number one in this sequence, or funnel would be where you just deliver the freebie. That is basically the end. If you reverse-engineer it, it's actually the last step, so to say. That's just a little clarification for newbies who have no clue what we're talking.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and that's really important. It's like, if you ultimately want to sell them a program that helps them boost their energy, then your email nurture sequence shouldn't be about gut health, right?
Christine H.: Yes.
Kendra Perry: You keep coming back to one thing. This is the most important thing, and we know that most coaches are struggling with this. You need to have a clearly-defined niche. Not two, not three, not four, not 10. One niche that people actually know what it is. I see people niche-ing in metabolism. Nobody knows what metabolism is.
Christine H.: Nobody knows what it is.
Kendra Perry: Right?
Christine H.: Yes. Don't forget that your lingo needs to be what they speak, not what you learned in your education.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, absolutely. I know health coaches are super nerdy, and you want to prove that you're smart, and that you're knowledged. If you speak in words that they don't understand, there'll be no connection. You just want to make sure that everything is connected, which is a really good point.
Christine H.: You can have several of those sequences, or funnels in your business. If you have, for example, products, if you have a supplement line, or if you have DIY programs, or Evergreen programs, you might have different opt-ins on your website that will lead to those different product [inaudible 00:21:35]. You would have different funnels in your email marketing software.
Christine H.: What we're going to teach you today, you can basically take those emails and just personalize them to that product, or service that you are designing. The content, their personality, or the feeling that [inaudible 00:21:53] about is going to be the same.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and guys, I have a template. I have an email nurture sequence template, and we will link to that in the show notes so that you guys can get access to that. I think that'll be really helpful.
Kendra Perry: In your nurture sequence, let's say we've delivered the freebie. You're going to send them another email, and you might send it an hour later, you might send it a day later, you might send it two days later. It depends, and you may have to play with that. You can set this up with any email marketing platform. This is going to be called an automation, I believe, in most email platforms.
Christine H.: In automation, or workflow I've seen it as well.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, right. I think I've seen it as workflow too, yeah. The first email that you sent after that confirmation email, this was email number two... You want to tell them your compelling story about either why you struggled with your own health that's related to your niche, or maybe why you're so passionate about it. I guess not all of us have personal stories with our niche, but if you do have a personal story, tell it. If you don't, there's obviously a reason why you decided to niche in this, and you obviously feel passionate about it for a reason. Tell that story, and you want to make it compelling, okay?
Christine H.: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kendra Perry: People want to know your story, but you also want to refer back to them as much as possible.
Christine H.: Yes, certainly.
Kendra Perry: I like to do, can you relate? Does that make sense? Have you had that experience? Is this familiar? Always coming back to them. You really want to spend some time on this. You want to make sure your story is compelling. Then, what I do with this is, I basically end the email in the middle of the story climax, or that most dramatic part of the story. That's going to be... I think I've heard it called a few different things, and I'm gapping on it, but literally it's that darkest point, or that vague transition point in the story where everything changed. Usually, we can tell a story somehow in that way, where you maybe were interested in health and then suddenly you realize, you're like, "Oh, my God," or in your own personal story you were like, "I was struggling so hard, I hit rock bottom. Then, I discovered this thing."
Kendra Perry: End that story in the middle of the climax so they're like, "Oh, my God, I need to know what happens next." Then, you're going to say, in one day, in two days, in three days, whatever, "I'm going to send you the next email titled..." Give them the title, "where I'm going to share this, this and this." The rest of your story. Yeah.
Christine H.: Exactly. That's something that happens too much, and it depends, I guess, whether your clients are confronted with this a lot or not, I personally can see through this now. I don't like it if I get too many emails at once. Yeah, sometimes I recommend to start with one a day, and then space it out every two days. I like that, actually, but just tell them in a couple of days you're going to get the next [inaudible 00:24:42] or something like that.
Kendra Perry: I think I send my note every two days. That seems to work for me.
Christine H.: I think that's polite. Yeah, exactly. The other thing that you can do is, while you are talking about your story you can already sprinkle in a testimonial. What you can say is, which later on have my client X, Y, Z with their da-da-da. It's just going to be read fluidly. People don't really realize that they've read this testimonial already, but they are ready to connect with you with success stories about their problems. That's a good way of doing it. Then, I think what we do a lot in our emails is, can you relate, or if you have a question reply to me now. Just say, "Reply to this email," and actually those people do that.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I do that in pretty much every email I send out. I say, "Reply to this email and let me know." It's great, because if they actually do reply to that email, your emails are probably never going to end up in their spam, or promotions ever again, which is great in terms of deliverability. You can also get a lot of research. You can learn a lot about them. I store all these email replies in my Gmail, and then when I'm going to writing a sales page, or creating some sort of training I literally go through, and I look at the words they're using, and how they're describing their problem. You can actually learn a lot about them. Then, people are pretty excited when they reply, and then you actually reply back and help them.
Christine H.: Yes. Exactly.
Kendra Perry: They're like, "Oh, my God, I can't believe you responded." That's a really good way to do that. Now, I often add that in a PS. I'll be like, "PS: Reply to this email with," blah-blah-blah, or at the end of the email. Then, in your email number three, that's where you're telling the part two of your story, where you're basically telling them exactly how you solved your problem, or you solved someone else's problem. You basically teach them how you're going to show them to do the same with their problem.
Kendra Perry: You just sort of pick up on that story, and then what you want to do is, again, tell them, "I'm going to send you another email in two days," or whatever and, "This is the title of the next email."
Christine H.: Yeah.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine H.: Those would be a couple of things. Run through your sequence, and I'm going to go and do other things as well, so we're going to see.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. All right, so email number four, I call this Aggravate the Problem and Surprise Them. Remember, they have a problem, I'm just going to use fatigue as an example. When I say aggravate the problem, you really want to make them feel like, this is a problem. I'm tired all the time. I wake up and I'm tired. I walk through the day like a fucking zombie because I'm exhausted. I come home and I'm even more tired. This is causing me pain. I'm missing out on all these other things I want to do in my life because I'm so fucking tired. You really want to speak to those pain points. Pain points are basically the problems that your ideal client has. If we use fatigue as an example, it might be, "I wake up in the morning and I feel like shit, even though I slept for eight hours." That's a pain point, right?
Christine H.: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kendra Perry: "I crash in the middle of the day at 2:00 PM, and I need to have a nap." That's a pain point, right?
Christine H.: Exactly.
Kendra Perry: Try to think of all those issues that they have in relation to the one bigger problem that they have.
Christine H.: Great. Okay, surprise them.
Kendra Perry: With Surprise Them, it's kind of like empower them that they have the power to change their situation. That's how you surprise them, because they may have been told by doctors that, "You're just a middle aged woman, and you're just getting older," right?
Christine H.: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kendra Perry: They've probably been disempowered with their health. They may not actually really know, or feel that they can change their problems. Surprise them by telling them that, "Hey, your health is your responsibility, and you can change this. I changed this, and I've changed this in all these other people I've worked with," if you have. You're surprising them to be like, "You know what? This is in your control, and you can change things." That's how you surprise them.
Kendra Perry: I also like to throw in there to tell them it's not their fault. You know? You don't want them feel bad.
Christine H.: Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah, huge one.
Kendra Perry: Most people have been given terrible information about their health, or they've been told...
Christine H.: This is it.
Kendra Perry: ...You're just a woman, this is normal, you're just getting older. Oh, it's because you're in your late 30s."
Christine H.: Exactly. Here's your diagnosis, now live with it, you know?
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine H.: Exactly. Just saying, if you don't have that story... For example, I don't have personal stories, I use my clients' stories. I would, for example, describe what they tell me when we are on our first call together. Especially with them, I really use similar language. Then, for the surprise factor I would say something, "What he didn't know," or, "What she didn't know was that..." Something that I know when I tell it to my clients their eyes light up, and they're like, "What?" This is actually one of these little things that will already make people feel like, "I knew that there was a link there, but nobody believed me," something like that. That's the surprise element. I just use someone else's story and it works really well. You can write a beautiful narrative.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I love that you're saying narrative. People really connect to stories. Stories are very much in our DNA. Our ancestors shared stories to spread information. If you can make it like a story, then people are going to be really engaged, and really into it. Then, always at the end of this email you tell them the title of your next email coming, and when you're going to send it.
Kendra Perry: Then, in email five, this is where I like to devote a entire email to a testimonial. Where you share, and if that person has given you permission to use their image, put an image in there. Just tell the story. The whole email is of [Gemma 00:30:36], who was able to reverse her fatigue even though she'd been diagnosed with chronic fatigue, and had it for 10 years, right?
Christine H.: Yeah.
Kendra Perry: How were they able to solve it? Using your particular method, right?
Christine H.: Exactly.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine H.: Perfect.
Kendra Perry: Again, if you don't have one yet, you could use yourself if you have that personal information, or you could use a friend, a family member, a mentor. Someone who... just anyone.
Christine H.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. At this point, you can actually include your first more pointed call to actions. What that means is, ask them to do something. Before my email sequences were, at the moment I don't have one because I'm too lazy. I am going to do one for this year, and I'm going to record it so stay tuned, I'm going to accomplish that. In the beginning you don't ask them, you just give. You literally just give them. You give them your best story, and something you can maybe do is, "Oh, by the way, here is one of my most popular blog posts. Maybe this can help you to get started straightaway." Something that you already have, they can just click through.
Christine H.: You spoil them, basically. You give them stuff, "Here's a free training that I did. Maybe this can be helpful," and it talks about what I've just talked about in the email. Then, by the time you have the email with a client testimonial, that's when you can actually start asking for something from them. Which could be, "Why don't you book a call and see? If you have questions, just reply here, or just book a call with me." I think this is a good time when you can slowly start to ask for something. Still, don't tell them about a paying program yet.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I agree. Amy Porterfield calls this micro-conversions, which I really like. You can do this sort of through your email sequence, and my micro-conversions are always in the PSs. I'll be like, "PS: I have an Instagram account where I share business training for health coaches. Make sure to follow me if you're interested." Then, the next might be guests, have a YouTube channel, blah-blah-blah.
Kendra Perry: It's these micro-conversions where they're just small. They're not really asking much of anyone. There's just letting people know that they can click here, get more information. It gets them used to clicking. I always throw those in the PS. I throw them in pretty much any email that I sent out. There's always a PS that tells them to check to something like, "Do you know of a podcast? Check on my podcast. Subscribe if you're interested." Sometimes, people want to binge your stuff. They want more. They're loving it, and they want to see more of your content. If you don't tell them it's there, then they're not going to go and find it on their own.
Christine H.: Exactly. You want to draw them into that rabbit hole of content of yours, into your universe, basically. You want them to gush about you. You want them to know you before you pitch them something. Oh, yeah.
Kendra Perry: Totally agree. Then, the sixth email, this is where I do the full pitch email. I don't just start by saying, "Hey, here's my thing, sign up." I actually explain the method, and how it has really helped me or the client. Again, you're seeding in more testimonial. You're like, "This is my method." I do recommend that, for whatever you do, create some sort of method, or some sort of step-by-step...
Christine H.: Always.
Kendra Perry: ... because there's certain people who make decisions based on knowing that there is a step-by-step process.
Christine H.: Yes, that there's logic behind the madness. [crosstalk 00:34:03] the process.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, they want to know that you can get them from A to B to C, and they want to know that there's a process. Not everyone makes decisions like that, but some people do, right?
Christine H.: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kendra Perry: There's a really interesting assessment called Colby Assessment. I actually use this with my sales page, because it tells you how people make decisions. Some people are quick start, so they make really quick, impulsive decisions. They're just super fast. There is the fact finders, which need all the information. They need to do all the research. Then, there's the... I can't remember the name of it, the one that wants the A, to B, to C. I can't remember the name of it, but you can look it up. They're the ones that want the step-by-step. That's why I think, regardless of what you're doing, turn it into a method, or a step-by-step process.
Christine H.: Always, and it has to be yours. Your signature method. For me, it's the Sleep Like A Boss method. It's signature, it's proprietary. Get a patent [inaudible 00:34:58], actually, and trademark. That's what's going to make you money, and maybe give you the possibility to even license it out later. Just be savvy about this, even if you're at the very beginning. If you think you're onto something and you've created something amazing that works, just keep it in mind.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, or even if your method is, you're like, we talk about diet, then we talk about life sell. Then, we talk about whatever. That's still a step-by-step process, right?
Christine H.: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kendra Perry: It doesn't need to be complicated.
Christine H.: No, no.
Kendra Perry: Just call it something, because that's what will draw people in. Then, it's easier because you're like, "This is my method. This is how it's helped. This is the process of my method, and this is the solution that I can help you achieve." You really want to focus on in the pitch email. Don't list out the features of your program, and what they're get. Features just meaning, you get a 60-minute consult, and then you get access to this app. Then, you get a Facebook group. Then, you get testing, or whatever. Those are features, and that's not what sells something. People buy because of the outcome you can help them achieve. You really want to go through, what are they going to feel like if they decide to invest in you? What's that going to look like? How is their life going to be better? How is their life going to be worse if they don't take this step, right?
Christine H.: Exactly. Exactly. Then, you literally just tell them, "Click here if this is for you," or something like that.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and for a lot of you guys, I know a lot of you guys are doing one-on-one programs. You're just going to send them the link to your free sales call, or enrollment call, qualifying call, whatever you want to call it, where basically... We should do an episode on sales because I think a lot of people really fuck up sales calls. The sales call-
Christine H.: We will, we will.
Kendra Perry: It's not a health history. It's not a coaching call. It's literally you inviting them to see if they're ready to transform. You see if they're ready to change.
Christine H.: Exactly.
Kendra Perry: You just want to qualify them, and see if they actually are a good fit for your program, and if they're someone you can help.
Christine H.: There's something you can do as well, especially with health coaching. Our clients are not necessarily who are like us, or like Kendra and I at least, who do a lot of marketing geeking. You can actually tell them that you only work with a certain number of people, or are opening a certain number of spots. With me, that's actually true. I only work with five people at a time. Even if it's not true, it will help those who are on the fence finally prioritize.
Christine H.: It's not just like I'm pokering, or I'm lying. Essentially, [inaudible 00:37:22] game time, and this is time to change your health. When you just tell them, "I'm opening up my schedule for a certain number of people, so make sure you don't miss it," I think it still works. When I'm interested in something and I stop someone and I see it, it still triggers that FOMO in me, you know?
Kendra Perry: Yeah, yeah. I think people need urgency, right?
Christine H.: Yeah.
Kendra Perry: They need a bit of pressure to take action. Don't be upset if, at this point the person still doesn't book the call. Remember, we said 36 touch points, right?
Christine H.: [crosstalk 00:37:59] sometimes, yeah.
Kendra Perry: Exactly. It will depend on how many touch points they've had with you before they opted in for your freebie and went through the email sequence. Maybe they were only four in, so they might not be ready yet but that's why we're sending out weekly emails. That's where you want to email your list weekly, and provide them with value. For each one of those emails that you send out, that's another touch point. It's getting them closer to the point where, if they are interested in investing, that they're going to want to invest.
Christine H.: Agreed.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. If you want to get into more complex stuff, if people don't book the sales call you can follow up with more emails, reminding them or whatever. Obviously, that gets a bit more complicated, and I know a lot of you guys probably just have really basic email marketing skills. Just so you know what the possibility is, right?
Christine H.: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kendra Perry: You can track people who book a sales call, and then follow up. Sometimes, people are interested, but then their baby starts crying and they go to the baby, and they've forgotten about it. It happens all the time, right?
Christine H.: Exactly.
Kendra Perry: What do we have? Four-second attention span? Less than that of a goldfish? There you go.
Christine H.: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely, agreed.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine H.: I think that's it. Is there anything that we have?
Kendra Perry: Yeah, so that's our email nurture sequence. We will make sure to link to the template, if you guys want to grab that in the show notes, which basically just explains out all these sort of steps in detail that you might find helpful. Then, you can be on our email list.
Christine H.: Exactly. There's different things. I know that we say a lot of the times that I'm actually just [inaudible 00:39:29] playing around with it at the moment. I'm seeing staggering numbers, but just like before we said you shouldn't use any pictures or so forth in your email. Actually, I'm using a new software that's called FlowDesk, and it's really pretty. It's in beta, so it's not sophisticated, it doesn't have bells and whistles yet, but it's beautiful. I have to say, my conversion is up in the 50%s, which is a lot, but you make conversion. It's doing really, really well. I know it's glitchy with other people sometimes, but it's actually shifted my perception on whether you should use photos or not. I can see that my crowd really likes, and responds to pretty, which makes sense because my whole branding is built on doing that [crosstalk 00:40:16].
Kendra Perry: I always recommend to keep images out of that first confirmation email. Right?
Christine H.: Oh, yeah. Don't do it on the first one.
Kendra Perry: That's when they're not engaged. Later on, once people have gone through my email sequence, and then I'm sending them weekly emails I might actually have images in those, because at that point they're engaged. They've opened up a few of my emails and told their email service provider that actually this is not spam.
Christine H.: Exactly. It looks just beautiful. We get so many ugly emails, and just having something pretty in your life, it's just going to help them to at least have a longer glance. Then, what I like about this one is actually that you have a little Instagram feed of your last three posts at the bottom. Which I really like, because it gives you an insight into what you do. It's just more personal, and I feel that as coaches we sell based on emotion. We sell based on, yes, people want the logic, but the first thing they're going to see is whether they can connect with you.
Christine H.: It's a bit of a different game than when you're selling an Etsy store or something like that. It's a different ball game. You have to keep that emotion in mind, which is also why the sequence we've just presented is based so much on story. Much more than if you sell underwear, or I don't know, something else, a product. This is just why it differentiates a bit from what you've seen in other podcasts, or marketing courses or so forth. It's just what we see works well with the people we want to help.
Kendra Perry: That's great. Is it an app that you use to add your Instagram feed into the bottom of the email?
Christine H.: It's just part of their software. It's just a drag and drop thing, and you just drop the Instagram feed and it connects to Instagram. It's a pain sometimes to use, switch it off, switch it on again. Then, every email that goes out, which is every week for me, has the last three posts of my Instagram feed.
Kendra Perry: That's awesome.
Christine H.: Yeah, it's pretty cool.
Kendra Perry: If you guys don't have FlowDesk, I'm sure there's a third party app out there that will do that, you know?
Christine H.: Yes. I'm sure there is.
Kendra Perry: I guarantee it. Yeah, I put all kinds of weird things into the bottom of my email. Especially during launches. Put little timers in there, and all that stuff.
Christine H.: Exactly.
Kendra Perry: I'm sure something exists. That's all we got for you guys, and I really hope that was helpful. If you are listening to this episode on your phone, make sure to screen shot this episode, share it to your Instagram stories and tag 360 Health Biz Podcast, and let us know your take homes. We would love that.
Christine H.: Love, love, love.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine H.: Anything new, leave us a five-star review, let us know. Yeah, thanks for listening, I guess.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Again, we're always shocked when anyone wants to listen to us.
Christine H.: I know. You just think it's a conversation between the two of us.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine H.: [inaudible 00:42:58] It's weird.
Kendra Perry: We're out there.
Christine H.: All right, you guys. Have a wonderful day. Make sure you listen to these other episodes that we have, and talk to you very soon.
Check out the newest 360 Health Biz Podcast episode on Email Marketing (part 1!)
First things first, when it comes to your email list – it’s quality over quantity. We seem to be living in this influencer social media mentality that the more followers you have the more money you’ll make selling your services. This is simply not true. You want to have quality leads on your list that are interested in what you’re putting out there.
In addition to WHY you need an email list, in this episode we also discuss:
- social media vs email
- our favourite email providers (hint: it’s not Mailchimp)
- email nurture sequences
- what should/shouldn’t be in your email
- how to create open-worthy subject lines
Tune in now for Part 1 of Email Marketing and be sure to mark you calendar for Part 2 coming up in two weeks.
Connect with us on social:
I'm launching my HTMA Expert Course on January 28! Interested in learning how to interpret hair tissue mineral analysis? Join the VIP list for access to early enrollment and a discount code: https://go.kendraperry.net/htma
Christine: Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of 360 Health Biz Podcast. We are so excited to have you and you are on track again for an amazing episode today where we will talk about a subject. Oh my God, there will be a lot of ranting I predict because it's just been a pet peeve of Kendra's and mine, and we also have very different techniques, really I don't have any so stay tuned for that.
Christine: But before we dive into that, we are happy over the moon because we have reviews. So my beautiful, beautiful Kendra please take it away.
Kendra: All right, thank you for that great intro Christine. Yeah, I think we will be ranting a lot to day because yeah, I've been hearing a lot of crazy things lately from health coaches in regards to email lists and what they're doing to email market. And it's definitely very important thing to do, but also a huge struggle for most.
Kendra: But anyways, to read the review. So the title of the review is "Excellent Content", and it's five stars and it's by Health Coach in Training from Canada. So I love that, fellow Canadian. "Thank you for sharing your knowledge. Your content is relevant, easy to understand, and you're also so fun to listen to. Keep the episodes coming." Yeah!
Christine: I'm like you're fun to listen to.
Kendra: Thank you so much Health Coach in Training, and guys, if you do like our podcasts, because podcast analytics virtually don't exist so the only way for us to know if you like us or if you're listening is to actually leave us a review and let us know what you've found helpful so that we know we're on the right track.
Christine: Yeah, we would appreciate it. Yeah, and also if you have a wish list of things, like something that's not working in your business or that you've been given advice on where you're like, "Really?", just let us know. We'd love to take it apart.
Kendra: Yeah, you can just send us a DM on Instagram or 360 Health Biz podcast, you can just email us. It's just hello@360HealthBizPodcast. Either works, and just let us know because we are here to serve you and we want to know what is actually your struggle because we want to help you basically.
Christine: Exactly, yes. All right, and with that we are off to our topic today, which is email. Oh my God, the topic, I mean email, there's so many blog posts out there, "Is email dead," or, "The secret is in your email list." And I think one thing we can agree on is that the market has changed so, so much in the last four years I would say, especially again in the past two years. And some advice is seriously outdated. I believe there's still some truth in it, but there's been a lot of outdated advice as well. So we're going to look at all the different angles of things that we've experimented with and things that have worked well for us and that haven't.
Christine: But the first point, and this is basically we are doing a series on this because it's such a big topic that we don't want to overwhelm your little brains. So we're going to, this is the first part of the series. And the first point we are going to talk about is why you actually still need an email list. And my mind was blown because I had a conversation yesterday with Kendra and she actually told me about some people that are now working with us who have been given advice of just like don't even have an email list. And it's mind blowing to me. So Kendra maybe just tell a little bit about that example and then we'll take it apart and see why you really, really do need one.
Kendra: Yeah, so I think, I kind of feel like we're aware early on in our business that we need an email list, but we have no idea how to cultivate that. And I think we kind of get, maybe our egos get a little bit caught up because egos are a thing, and we start just wanting the followers on social media. So we try to build our Instagram following or our Facebook following and we get really obsessed with being on social media and having this following. And a lot of us have, I think when it comes to social media, like almost like an influencer mentality that we want to just grow this massive following, but we're not influencers, we're business owners. You don't actually need that many people on a following to be successful, but you do need to get those people off social media and onto an email list because it is a reliable way to communicate with them.
Kendra: You know, yes, people are overwhelmed with the emails in their inbox these days. Yes, not as many people function through email. Like me personally, I almost, I'm not really subscribed to anyone's email list. I just follow them on social media.
Christine: I do have a few, but the ones that I am subscribed to, I'm a loyal follower, and I think that's also a big difference. Four years ago email was still, it wasn't new but it was still exciting. So people had these huge email lists of 10,000 and 50,000 and 100,000 people on there. If you started just a couple of years later, you would not have been able to replicate that simply because the market has changed so much. So if you have for example a coach who's telling you that you need to have an email list of that many people or if you were going to a little bit more about it later, if you can only collaborate with people who have at least 50,000, it's outdated advice in my opinion.
Christine: We're going to look at it a little bit more in detail, but whatever the situation is, social media is great but it doesn't belong to you. And the email list is yours, it's yours to hone, it's yours to print, to prune. The people who are on there want to be on there, they are not unsubscribing once they do. Not your problem, but the people who are still on there, are on there for a reason, which is just the perfect topic for you.
Kendra: I agree, and like it's true. Social media algorithms are always changing and I know in the early days when Facebook first started making their algorithm changes, people lost multi-million businesses overnight because suddenly they couldn't connect or reach the people. So you don't want to base your business off of social media alone, it's a tool. But you do want to funnel people onto an email list.
Kendra: And from there you can communicate with them, you can nurture them. And me personally, I'm someone who launches courses and group programs. All of my launches have been directly correlated to the size of my list. My first launch, I think I generated about $2,000 and I had about like 300 to 400 people on a list. Next launch was about 7,000 to 8,000. I was probably about like 1,000 to 1,500 people. Next launch, at some point, like my most recent launch was about 60,000 and I had about 2,500 on my list. But it's interesting because you think to make 60,000 you'd need a much bigger list, but you don't. It's about people being engaged and it being the right people on the list because I think what's really important is just because you have a lot of people following you doesn't mean you're making money.
Kendra: A lot of those, for example, and I think you've had this experience Christine. Like you ran an online summit probably to build your list. If you ran this big summit, you probably got tens of thousands of people on the list, but after the summit because they actually weren't that interested in you or sleep or whatever it was, they all pieced. So just because you can get that many people on a list, doesn't mean that you can sell to them, right?
Christine: Absolutely. So I think it's a fine balance because people who are going to sign up to your list do so because you're basically bribing them. So as Kendra said before today, everyone is annoyed by emails. It's a stressful, inbox is a stress point nowadays so you don't want to have any spam in there. So it's just a different feeling that people have towards it.
Christine: So in order for them to sign up to an email list, you need to give them something. And we're going to go into detail into what that should be and what that should look like. And I think we actually have an episode on that.
Kendra: Yeah, we did an episode on lead magnets called Five Reasons Why Your Lead Magnets Sucks, or if you're converting or something like that. So listen to that episode, it's actually a great episode. It's funny because when I was going through, we recorded that episode and then I was creating a new lead magnet and I actually re listened to our episode because like, "What did I say? I need to remember my own advice." And I was like it's just funny that I'm listening to myself. [inaudible 00:08:15]
Christine: But yes, so go back and listen to that. We're going to connect that here on the show notes as well. But basically, so you bribe them with something free. So don't get this wrong. The people who, you have two kinds of people who will sign up. You have the person who's literally generally interested in you, who enjoys the way you are and who is already kind of playing with the idea to hire you for your services. And then you have the tire kicker. You have those who are already skeptic, but it's for free. And then you have a third category, which is basically people just wanting free stuff.
Christine: And I find that the percentage of those who are going to stay on your email list for quite a while is actually only growing in quite a small number. And the reason how I really figured it out is every three months I clean up, I purge my complete email list. So anyone who's not been active for three months or hasn't clicked on anything, even if they haven't unsubscribed, they're still on there but they don't engage, they don't read it, I purge them. I clean them out so they're not on my list anymore. And I have to say the number, it's not a lot of people, the amount that it grows. But those people are the real people that I really want to work with.
Christine: So you need to understand that when you do a summit for example, so just for those who don't know what a summit is. A summit is when basically you do an interview series with experts, talking about something related to your field. So I had the Women's Divine Sleep Summit and I had a whole bunch of experts all talking about their expertise in correlation with sleep. So we had sleep and candida, we had chronic fatigue, we had all kinds of different stuff. And it's free for a certain time, people need to sign up, give you your email. So there they get for free, they get access. And then in the end you are selling it because in truth is you have a lot, a lot of video, a lot of footage for a small time. So it's very, very practically impossible to consume it all during the time when it's free. So the goal is to make money on the back end by selling it and maybe up selling to other things as well.
Christine: So my experience is, and I'm doing this too, is I sign up for free, or they sign up for free. They try to consume as much as they can, and then afterwards you will sell them on basically paying to get the recordings forever. And a lot of them, some of them will still do, but I've found I grew my email list massively. So there was a lot of interest, but six months later my email list was pretty much back to what it was before the summit because those people were not really that serious about it. It was free, I made like $800. I didn't do, the summit sold for like $47. It wasn't expensive, so it was like, it was not bad, but it was not a lot of money.
Christine: So, but it was really eye opening to me because it was all these tire kickers basically just consuming for free, but they would never spend a serious amount. And I sold, of course, that was also like forty something bucks and it didn't sell. And I did a survey and they got something for free when they replied to the survey, why that was, was it time, was it price, was it insecurity, whatever. And pretty much unanimously it was, it was too expensive. So I already knew that ...
Kendra: You said it was $47?
Christine: It was $47.
Kendra: Well, holy fuck.
Christine: I know, that was eye opening to me. Now I do think it really depends on the subject that is [inaudible 00:11:49] to. So for me it was really clear, okay I'm not going to spend more energy on the people who are on my list right now, I'm going to keep it alive and I'm going to pitch from time to time, but I still have it because some people do only read my newsletter. It's really weird, but I think you have to engage with your email list from time to time to see whose actually on there. Does it have potential? Should you focus more in growing it? Should you pitch to it? I know that I don't get any sales from my email list. My clients, 90% of them are not on my email list, it's hilarious.
Christine: So that's my specific bit, my specific kind of knowledge of my list and how I focus. But for Kendra for example, it's the other way around. Her buyers are on her list and it converts very, very well. Whatever it is though, the people are interested in you. You have to grab them. You have to at least have the possibility to figure out whether they are money in your pocket, and if you don't, you will leave money on the table. So it is your responsibility to have them sign up and to at least try and to at least see if you can convince them.
Christine: And writing a weekly newsletter is not hard. Listen again to our first episode with Jamie Palmer and she has a whole system and then both Kendra and I implemented that way most of the time I think. So listen to that and you have content. But I think the most important thing is that the people on there are always faithful. So they will recommend you, they will have you in their heads. I know that they religiously read what I write. They might not come back as clients, but I know that if anyone is ever going to talk to them about a sleep issue, that they will recommend me because they are just fascinated by what I do.
Christine: So it's something that is in my opinion a non-negotiable to have. But the size of it does not matter, it really doesn't.
Kendra: I totally agree and I wonder if the difference between me and you is just between what we're selling, because you're selling this higher ticket like one on one and people are finding you and they're trusting you based on where you've been featured. You've been featured in all these big publications, you've been on TV, all that stuff. So like for people who have more money to spend, they're like, "I want the best and I see this chick everywhere." So you don't really need to be on your email list, right?
Christine: Exactly, plus you know pretty unanimously they find me at three am, they're exhausted. Those people are never going to read emails. They are just like, you know it's also my opt in, it's a training. Most people don't have the nerves to do that, I know that, I really am aware of it but it's a fantastic fucking good training. But I'm very, very much aware that it's not the perfect opt in, but it's just most people find me through Google and they book a call and I convert them that way. So it is a specific situation.
Kendra: Yeah, and it is a bit different because I'm selling courses and gap programs so I need higher volume. Like I need to, if I want to hit my goals with my [inaudible 00:14:47] course, I'm like I need to sell to 50 people. Next round I want to sell to 100. So it's just like, yeah I do need the list. And so I think regardless, you need an email list, you want to culture that. You want to nurture it because like Christine for example, you might shift your focus at some point. You might decide to go a different direction in your business and you want to have those people.
Kendra: But if you are someone, and I know a lot of coaches out there, you do want to have group programs or you do want to go have a course at some point, so you need to focus on this now. And for me personally, if I do look at a regret that I had with starting my business, I wish I started building my email list sooner because I didn't really take it seriously until about, I don't know, two years in or something like that. And as soon as I started working on it, I had six figures within a year. So it was very, an important part of my success.
Christine: I agree, and I think an email list is what drives the numbers in terms of when you sell mid ticket, mid ticket to low ticket. If you have something that's around like $1,000, the email list is the way to go. For me, a minimum is $7,000, I'm never going to sell that by an email. It's just, well I'm never going to say never, you never know, but it's just a different way of doing business. If I had that product, which might come at some point, I know that I will create more awareness, different opt ins, different funnels to get people towards that. At the moment, it's not my priority, but even if it's not my priority, I do take it seriously.
Christine: I have it in place and have the shortest funnel in the world. Funnel basically means that when people sign up what they say, I have one email that's it. So, but I do know that it's just because it's not my priority, but at the same time I love the people on my email list and I get really interesting feedback from them sometimes. So it's an important piece of the puzzle I believe.
Christine: And then another thing, oh God, was that you talked to someone about our master mind and basically they were ... What were they doing? They were selling things and they didn't have an email list. Exactly, yes, so they had ...
Kendra: Yeah, so this particular lovely lady who has so much potential in her business, very much excited to help her access that potential but yeah, she was selling this group program and selling quite a few spots, which is pretty impressive, but all off of social media. There was no email funnel, there was no, and no one was on the email list. So it's just not, that's not predictable or reliable because you literally, you can make this plan for this launch and maybe it went well last time, but if the algorithm has changed or you know I don't know, like things can be glitchy with Instagram. Like my swipe up feature stopped working for like two weeks randomly and it was just some like weird glitch. Or I've been blocked on Instagram before randomly, so it's just like it's not reliable. If you have those people and they did your group program, you want them on your list because potentially those people are going to buy from you again, right?
Christine: That's it, I was going to say. They are return customers, especially like the first thing. That's what I do. If I buy a course with someone, I will see what's coming up, what's next. And sometimes it takes me a couple of years, but then I will join their master mind or their conference or whatever it is, or their membership. So these people are very likely return customers and so you letting them go is just literally taking money and just like poof, throwing it in the air and it's gone. So really make sure that you keep those people somewhere safe, like where they belong to you, for sure.
Kendra: Absolutely. So let's talk a little bit about email list providers because a few of the people I was talking to as well, I was like, "Who's your email provider?" And they're like, "Gmail." I'm like, okay, that's not going to work. First of all you're limited. I think Gmail only allows you to send mass emails to 500 people. But if you're sending a mass email from Gmail, like whoa. Other email providers see all the email addresses and they think it's spam.
Christine: It's spam. There's no chance that you will even land in the spam folder at times, you will just be destroyed.
Kendra: Yeah, and I mean you don't want that because it's like we all get these email scores over time. And if your email score is bad, it just means that you're going to have really low open rates and you aren't going to open. So you can't keep people in Gmail. I don't even know if it's technically legal.
Christine: I don't think so to be honest. I really don't think that's something that mass emails is just that legal. I also want to say I don't think it's professional to be honest. Like I like, Gmail for me is private. Even businesses who have a Gmail address, I'm like, "You're skimping. Why don't you have a domain? Why don't you have an email address with your domain? You're a professional, take your business seriously." So it leaves a bitter aftertaste in my mouth to be honest.
Christine: So you should take it to what we call a CRM and that's basically a platform where you can manage your clients and email them in bulk in a way, but also you can design it in a very nice way. And we're going to talk about that a little bit too. And there are very simple ones, and there are very complicated ones. And my very first one was the most complicated one in the market that is designed for multi-million corporations and I had like five people.
Kendra: Was that Infusionsoft?
Christine: That was Infusionsoft. I was totally sold on it on my first conference that I went to. And I didn't know what pitching was, and I just, "Yes!" Oh God, I was so naïve, so don't do that, really don't do that. There's a lot of other options out there and we're going to walk through them. Fascinatingly enough both Kendra and I had the same experience that people set us up with the same one, it's Mailchimp.
Kendra: It's Mailchimp.
Christine: I don't know why.
Kendra: I think maybe it's the most common one or maybe it has good SCEO and it comes up. You know what I actually think it is Christine? I think it's because there's a free option and so people get stuck on because they can, and I started with that too because it was free and you're like, "Well I don't want to spend." But Mailchimp will drive you fucking crazy because ...
Christine: I think it is also one of the first ones so a lot of business coaches just recommend what they started with.
Kendra: Totally, totally. I mean I think MailChimp is good if you're like a brick and mortar business and you don't have funnels, you don't have different lists. You're literally just sending out a newsletter, like old school style. That's fine but the problem with Mailchimp is you'll quickly move past the free option, I think after 500 people you're over it. And it's so frustrating because things that should be easy are really complicated. They charge you based off of numbers and if you have three lists, so let's say you do essential oils and then you also do health coaching. So you have people who have opted in for essential oils and then people who have opted in for like health coaching stuff. But if you have one of those people and they're on the same lists, they are counted as two people in Mailchimp which is bullshit.
Christine: It's total bullshit, yeah.
Kendra: It's a huge pain in the ass.
Christine: In another system you would call it a segment and that's fine. You just pay for the one email address, it's always in bulk [inaudible 00:22:10]. So you get penalized in a way of how many people you have, and also the features that are unlocked. Like things, suddenly everything you have to pay for, like for certain, it's design features but it's also practicality features like timing, scheduling things out, trying A and B models. Sometimes you just want to just test which email style works better, and so you have features where you can send out the same email but in two different designs and test A and B and you will see where they click and that might be how you design the next email and so forth. So all of those are paid, like you have to pay for them and it gets really expensive after a certain time.
Kendra: It does, and in the end you're paying more for a shitty email provider versus something that is a lot more functional. I always tell my clients to go with ActiveCampaign. I've used ActiveCampaign personally. I actually moved from ActiveCampaign and now I regret it so I'm going to be going back to them. But they have like, their start up is like $15 a month. It's not expensive, I think you get $15 a month for up to 1,000 people. It's pretty user friendly, they have good customer service and it can handle all the complex funnels. So as you grow and you want to implement more complex funnels and whatever, it can handle it so then you don't have to switch, which is awesome.
Christine: They're great. Yeah, I'm using MailerLite. My list is tiny so it's free, but I like it. It has everything you need. It has landing pages, you can design whatever you want. You can put GIFs in there, you can segment, you can schedule, you can track it with Google. I really like it, I enjoy it. It looks good, it's easy to use and it's very affordable.
Christine: Another one that I know that a lot of people use is Drip, I think quite a few. And there was another one, Constant Contact. Is that possible?
Kendra: Constant Contact, yeah. And there's like GetResponse. A lot of people, a lot of the bigger marketers, and this is what I use is ConvertKit. Now ConvertKit is a higher price point and I pay about $50 a month for it, but it has all the capabilities of ActiveCampaign but there are some things about it that drive me insane. For example, like the emails, they're all just in a big overwhelming list. Like you can't, what I would love if there was a tab for like scheduled, drafts and sent. There's not, they're all just listed. So you have to scroll through and for my business, we have, I have my course, we have our membership.
Kendra: So we send out like so many emails, and then also we send out two emails to my list a week so it's like crazy. So you're like looking for an email and you're scrolling through and it's really overwhelming. And then when you want to update one and it's already been scheduled, you have to return it into a draft and then it just disappears into the list and you have to find it again. It drives me insane.
Kendra: And you can't do analytics on your emails. So it doesn't tell you which are your best performing emails and like anyways ...
Kendra: Yeah, it's super weird. So I've sent them a bunch of like notes to customer service. I'm like, "Can you please do this?"
Christine: It's not hard, yeah.
Kendra: It's not hard, and I'm like this is super overwhelming. We send out so many emails and we cannot find them. And they were just like, "Yeah, we're not going to do that." So I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to move back to ActiveCampaign." And the whole thing about ActiveCampaign is they will do your transfer for you for free. So they will just do it all for you, so that's my plan. I have a bunch of stuff in there from when I was health coaching so I need to delete like 50 funnels in there and just edit it down because I don't want everything transferred over. But I'm like yep, ActiveCampaign rocks. See you ConvertKit. But anyways ...
Christine: No, I totally agree, I totally agree. And then all of them work pretty much the same way, it's like a drag and drop kind of thing. But doing like a side note on what you should include in your email, obviously it depends what you're selling. If you have products, yes, you need to have images, maybe a GIF and so forth. However, what we found that converts fast in terms of not being put into spam straightaway is to have nothing in your email, like literally just text. You also need the unsubscribe button, but I try not to have a single link in my email. I literally tell people if you want to get in touch, just reply to this email. I don't link it, the only link I have is the unsubscribe button, that's it. And I don't even use colors, it's black text. Sometimes it's a little bit of pink in there, but in general it's just black text. There's no fancy whatever-ish in them and no images and it's just, it looks I guess for algorithms, it just looks more serious and business-y versus difficult ads.
Kendra: Yeah, like even more just like a regular email. And you know, so what I was going to say what I found is if you have an email sequence, like a nurture sequence that's going out to people who haven't opened your emails before, you want to keep it as empty as possible so that it doesn't end up in their spam.
Kendra: But for example, with my membership, for people who open my emails and I know they're not going into people's spam because they've been opening my emails. Like we send out a newspaper with all kinds of images and links, but we know that people are opening them. So once you have people who are consistently opening your emails, you can start adding images.
Christine: You're safe.
Kendra: You're safe to do that, but right off the bat if it's like the first email that they're getting as a confirmation for your lead magnet, don't have an image, don't have a header. Just keep it super simple, be like, "Hey, super excited that you opted in. This is fantastic. I'm Kendra, you're awesome, I'm awesome. Here's the download link. And hey, I'm going to send you another email tomorrow. It's titled this and this is what I'm going to tell you in it," and that's it.
Christine: That is it. I love GIFs, I'm still loving GIFs. So I just had every email had like a hilarious GIF, which made me laugh. Like I don't know, I just think I'm hilarious with GIFs, but I can't do it anymore.
Kendra: I do too.
Christine: Yeah, but I can't do it anymore. It doesn't like, especially because my funnel is so short, it's just one email after that they get the regular newsletter. It's just I can't do it. But I do have to say it also saves you tons of time. It's just really easy, so but it's maybe something that's very different obviously because also the email providers will want you to use all of their features and bells and whistles which is super cute, but just from conversion perspective, from our pro advice it's not worth it. Keep it very simple.
Kendra: Totally, yeah, and so something you can do and this will work is so on the first email that I send someone, is I always ask them to reply to the email with something quick. So for example when I was doing fatigue, I would say, "Hey, I would love to know out of 10, where would you rate your fatigue? Just reply to this email and let me know." And for the people who do reply, if they reply, like your emails are probably never going to end up in their promotions or spam folder again, plus it's really good market research because you can see where people are at.
Kendra: Like I tell people, now that I'm doing business coaching, I'm like, "How would you describe your business? How do you feel about your business right now in one word? Reply to this email." And people will be like, "Overwhelmed," or like, "Frazzled," and so I can actually see the words that they're using and get an idea of what words I should be using in my sales copy, right?
Christine: Exactly, and I also find the first email is basically when they watched the training, have a couple of testimonials in there, and then I'm just basically, "What are your sleep struggles? Just let me know. I'm generally interested." And I don't get too many people replying, but there's always a few who are like, "Hey Christine, well this and this has happened." And then I'm saying, "Oh wow, let's get you this idea, but if you want to talk more about it, let's schedule a call." They schedule a call and they convert into clients ideally. And that's a seven pay client, so that conversion is really, really good. So it works. Again it's different and maybe if I had more people on the list it would be even better, like 2020.
Kendra: Even me, who I probably have like, I can't remember, 25 to 3,000 or something on my email list. I don't get a ton of replies, but I get some and the people who do ...
Christine: That's some.
Kendra: Yeah, and that's what matters right, is those people who do reply, like they're engaged. And you're going to send them ...
Christine: We love them.
Kendra: We love them, and we're going to send them like a super personal response. Don't get your assistant to reply, don't ignore it, actually write them back and be like, "Hey, thanks so much for replying. So sorry that you're feeling so like overwhelmed with your sleep. Stay tuned, or you can maybe check out this or I have a really good video that might help you here." Serve them, right, and those people are going to be like super into your shit.
Christine: Exactly, and especially if you do have a great collection of blog posts, which you should do and we talked about that in episode number one, I think it's ... Is it episode one or two? No, it is episode number one. And you can literally it will take you two seconds to just say, "I have a blog post on this. Just go there," or give the link. It's no work for you at all, but it's going to create these amazing fans that just love you in the end, so yeah.
Kendra: I wanted to say one more thing about email deliverability before we move on, and that's just your subject line. Subject lines will make or break your email open rates. So in terms of open rate, that's just means the percentage of people who are opening your emails. And your email provider, whatever it is, will tell you that. Now industry standard for health and wellness is about 20%. So that's what you're aiming for, somewhere around 20%, which seems low, but whatever, 20% okay. But a lot of people make terrible mistakes with subject lines. Like you know, like your subject line can't be like, "October Newsletter".
Christine: Oh fuck hell no.
Kendra: Or the other mistake I see people make is they actually give away the email in the subject line, you know.
Christine: Like what?
Kendra: They're like, something like "The gut is the main cause of your thyroid dysfunction".
Christine: Oh yeah, yeah, or yes.
Kendra: You want to like intrigue people right, and this is what's worked for me personally and you're going to have to test it. That's why the A B split function for subject lines can be really helpful, but what works really well for me is something that kind of sounds a little bit personal like, "Hey, have you seen this," or, "I did this and I really can't believe I did," or like, "Wow, that really pissed people off," or something like that where it's like intriguing but it's also somewhat personal. But again guys, don't do click baits. Don't just put something to get people to click, make sure it's still relevant to the email because if you use click bait you're going to just piss people off.
Christine: And I think, one thing, I'm just going to give you a little insider tip here. Something you can do is going to Laura Belgray's home page, it's called the Talking Shrimp. Sign up for her newsletter. You don't need to read them, but her headlines are fucking awesome. It's just, it's like, "I fought it and then this happened," or, "You know when you're super lazy like me, do this." I don't even know, but I have a folder which is just her newsletters and it's just when I need a really cool subject line, I will be inspired by that because it's just, it's open. She's magic, she's one of the most talented copy writers out there and you can just learn so much from how to do this just by seeing and looking at what she does.
Christine: So you don't need to copy/paste it. You shouldn't obviously, it should be your style. She has a very certain way of talking and that works because it's her. Obviously if it's not you, don't do it, but it is going to give you permission to really be yourself because you can see how she's totally herself and you certainly have permission too to be yourself. So go to the Talking Shrimp, Laura Belgray, sign up for her newsletter. Study it, have a look, she has an amazing course as well, sign up for that. I think it's pretty great value and everything she teaches is just fucking awesome.
Kendra: That's very cool.
Christine: So really, really go there and see what is doable for subject lines. It will change so much.
Kendra: Yeah, and another thing you can do is go in, if you have a Gmail account, go into your promotions folder because that's typically where all the promos end up and look at the subject lines and look at what intrigues you to want to open up something. Like when you see, "50% off," you're like, "Fuck no, because I don't want to buy anything right now."
Christine: Unless it's like some really nice lingerie. I'm like, "Sure," like [inaudible 00:34:29]. You know, but those are also, look at the business. Some commercial e-commerce store is going to have a very different way of marketing than a service provider. It's just different. So business coaches will be different than health coaches. So look at things where you click, where you're like, "Oh, I need this now. I didn't know I did, but now I do." That's who you want to be.
Christine: So we talked about quite a few things. We have more things coming up and that's on how to get people on your list, not that easy, but we will tell you how. We will also tell you the text stuff in terms of legal stuff, people, how to up the GDPR a little bit, and also how you can get people to actually see that you exist and then to sign up. And if you have any further questions, just please send them over to us and we'll talk about them too.
Kendra: Yeah, totally. Yeah, if you guys have questions, just connect with us on Instagram or shoot us an email Hello@360HealthBizPodcast or just 360 Health Biz Podcast for our Instagram account, or you can just email either one of us personally ChristineISleepLikeABoss, I'm KendraPerryInc because we are on Instagram all day long and we just respond to all our DMs, yeah.
Christine: We're totally addicted.
Kendra: We are addicted. We love Instagram.
Christine: Word. All right my dear people, we're going to launch episode, the next episode on this topic in two weeks after you listen to this. So either you can binge on it if it's already released, and if not you will hear it in two weeks. And that's it.
Kendra: So that's all we got.
Christine: That's all we've got for now.
Kendra: Peace out Holmes.