Check out part 2 of the 360 Health Biz Podcast email marketing series.
In this episode, Christine & I discussed two important items:
- the legal stuff of email marketing
- email nurture sequences
One is unsexy, one is VERY sexy. Can you guess which is which? If you guessed the email nurture sequence is the sexy one, you are correct!
In the episode we provide 6 email nurture sequence ideas, and NONE of these emails include selling!
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Enrollment for my HTMA Expert Course is now open! Interested in learning how to interpret hair tissue mineral analysis? Enroll in my 6 week course here: https://go.kendraperry.net/htma
Christine H.: Hello, and welcome everyone, to this new episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. Today, you have your two favorite hostesses with the [most-esses 00:00:11] in the Health Biz Podcast world. Miss Kendra Perry from Canada, being snowed in right now. Then, Christine Hansen from Luxembourg, where it's actually pretty sunny for this, generally. We're really excited to be with you today, as we are recording our second episode on email. How to write your email, how to structure it. We already talked about it in the last episode, so check that out. Today, we're mainly going to talk about how to make it work for you to do sales.
Christine H.: Stay tuned, but before we dive deep into the nitty gritty of this, we have a lovely, lovely listener who we adore who left us a review. Here's what's been said about us.
Kendra Perry: Okay, so we have a review from Jennifer [Blaugh 00:00:58], and I hope I said your last name right, Jennifer. She is an FDM. The title of her review is, "Seriously on-point content." Thank you, Jennifer. She says, "I am a fellow FDM, and I am trying to ramp up my health pushing business. I've been listening to all sorts of podcasts and webinars. This one is legitimately chock-full of great content, relevant information and useful, actionable advice. Seriously great stuff. Thank you, ladies, for all your hard work." Well, you are welcome, Jennifer, and we fucking love you.
Christine H.: Yes. Yes, we do. We love this so much. My little heart is singing right now.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine H.: This is amazing. Thank you. We're going to do our best to spoil you rotten in this episode as well. As email marketing is a huge, huge thing. A tool that is not easy. I think a lot of it can go wrong, but it's also the first thing that a lot of us are confronted with. Today, we're going to basically pick up on our last conversation. To let you know, first of all, how can you stay on the legal side, and then how can you make people just give you their money like a buttery, sweet transaction leaving everyone happy? Kendra, let's begin.
Kendra Perry: All right. We're going to bore you a bit first, so stick with us. Then, we're going to get into the sexier stuff. We do want to address the legal stuff, just because it is really important. You want to make sure you're not breaking the law with email marketing. Then, we're going to talk about email nurture sequence. You may not know what it is. Actually, a lot of the coaches I've talked to don't know what it is. We're going to talk about what that is, and why you need one, and how to do it. We're going to give you a step-by-step process.
Christine H.: Yeah.
Kendra Perry: We're going to be talking a bit of the legal stuff. Christine is going to speak to the GDPR stuff, which is the European rules, because she's more familiar with that. I just wanted to speak to some of the Canadian and American rules. This is one thing that's across the board. You need to get people's permission to email market to them. If you have a bunch of people's emails from something else, and they didn't give you their email address knowing that you were going to send them marketing emails, you actually can't use their email. You're not allowed to do that. That's completely illegal, and it's against privacy. You don't want to do that. You always want to make sure that people know they're opting in, you have people's permission to use that email.
Christine H.: Yeah, so maybe to give you a concrete example, let's say you go to a networking event and you exchange business cards. You are not allowed to take those business cards and type that email address of that person into your email marketing software. First of all, it's not polite. People are going to be annoyed at you, because when it happens to me, I get furious. It's also illegal. Anyone who gives you their email address that doesn't explicitly say, "Okay, you are allowed to send me new, or regular updates," basically that's illegal.
Christine H.: The same is also, and i know that a lot of people do giveaways, or if you are having a fair, you have things where you can win something, and then the entry, not tickets basically, have the email address of the person as well. You do need to have it a disclaimer somewhere that really, clearly states that you are going to email them regularly. Otherwise, again, you're a criminal, basically.
Kendra Perry: You're a criminal. A way that I do this that makes it really obvious. On all my landing pages where I'm offering something for free, the button always says, "Join my list, and you'll get the free guide." It always says that so it's very clear that they're joining my list. Yeah, you just want to be really obvious with that, because I have come across the people who are like, "Oh, I have all these emails from my personal training clients. Can I use that?" I'm like, "No." You could email them and say, I'm going to be sending out emails on this. Are you interested? Do you want to be on this list? If they say yes, then you can use that email but you do need to get their permission first.
Christine H.: Exactly. The same is true, actually, when you do sales calls, or preliminary sessions or whatever you call them. The people who leave their email address there to get a reminder of a call, they did not accept to be on your email list. Unless you tell them that they are going to be added, and have a checkbox to ask them whether they are okay with that or not, you cannot just connect your scheduler to your email software, and then automatically add them. It sounds so easy, and it wounds like, "Okay, I'm going to get a little leads," which I agree, but it's not legal.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Something you can do, like what I do, is I do add my clients to my email marketing list if I ever have to send communication to my clients specifically, but I exclude them from all the marketing emails. They're literally just getting the occasional email, like, "I just raised my prices. Here is the information. This is changing." Anything that's specific to client communication where I want to email all of them, but they don't get the marketing emails. That's really important.
Kendra Perry: Now, in terms of opting in, there is something called a single opt-in, and a double opt-in. The single opt-in is when you literally just put your email into that landing page, or that pop-up. Then, they automatically get the thing. A double opt-in is where they put their email address in, and then they get another email that says, "Confirm your subscription," or something like that, so they have to double opt-in.
Christine H.: They have to click on that.
Kendra Perry: Now, from what I can tell, and I know it was like this. I can't tell if it changed. I went online and did some research, but in the US you can have a single opt-in. In Canada, you have to have a double opt-in. If you're a Canadian, you're going to go with that double opt-in option, because that's the law. In the US, you can have single opt-in.
Kendra Perry: You can get this set up. All the email providers will have this option. You can turn it off, you can turn it on. It's usually just the clickable button anytime you are building out your sort of little email sequence, or little form. If you are in Canada, and I don't know if you know that in terms of Europe. Do you need a double opt-in?
Christine H.: I am not sure, to be honest. I don't think so, but I would actually check on that in a second.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, so we'll throw that in the show notes.
Christine H.: Yes, exactly, but I don't think so. I don't think you need the double opt-in necessarily, no.
Kendra Perry: Okay.
Christine H.: There's different statistics as well that show that if you have a double opt-in, the people who actually bother to click that link are going to be much more likely to actually engage with your emails.
Kendra Perry: Yes.
Christine H.: Even if it's not a requirement, it might be a good practice to already filter tire kickers who are just going to take space in your email marketing software. Just to make sure that you have primo material in there.
Kendra Perry: Exactly, yeah. I agree. Just that extra step, because a lot of people just get shiny object syndrome. They're just like, "Fuck yeah, I want to opt in," and they just opt in for all these things. Then, they never actually go to their email and check that, right?
Christine H.: Exactly. This is something which, actually we can talk about this right now. If you do this, basically what happens, when people fill in their email address and they click submit, or get now or whatever, you usually have a choice from your email marketing software to either just reload the form, or to send them to a different page. Whatever you choose is fine, but there should be a little message popping up, telling them to check their inbox, check their spam box or their junk folder, to make sure that they get that second email.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine H.: If you don't, people might just be frustrated because they think it's not working, when it's actually in their spam. We always recommend to personalize, and customize that, and already do that in your voice. If you're someone like Kendra and I, we would probably say, "Woop-woop," or something like that. You're good, now go over to your inbox and make sure that we didn't land in your spam folder. A sad face, something like that. Make sure you-
Kendra Perry: Yup. You bring up a good point there, and I think it's also a good point. You know, so many of you guys just have forms on your website? Then, when people opt in, nothing happens. I've seen a few websites where it's like, you get the thing but there's nothing that tells me what's going to happen next, and just so remember, they're giving away something that's personal. You need to make them feel...
Christine H.: Protected.
Kendra Perry: ... protected by saying, "Awesome. You're in. That guide, or that checklist is on its way to your inbox. It's going to be there in five to 10 minutes, so make sure to check your promotions or spam. If you have any issues, this is my support email where," you know.
Christine H.: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kendra Perry: Sometimes, forms are broken, right?
Christine H.: Yeah.
Kendra Perry: If you have someone opt in for something and they don't get the thing, and they have no way of contacting you to be like, "This didn't work," that trust is gone.
Christine H.: Yeah. Agreed.
Kendra Perry: Just saying.
Christine H.: Totally. The second thing that I find will distinguish you from the crowd is that confirmation email that is coming then. A second email that is going to be, "Click here to..." I don't remember what they say, it's a confirmation email. Usually, your email software will allow you to customize that, so brand it. Brand it according to how the newsletters are going to look like afterwards. Write it in your lingo. Tell them, "You are our favorite. Now, just click this little thing and we're good to go." Something that you would say so that people immediately see that you're not a robot, and it's not just tack, but it's actually you behind your business. I find that really makes you stand off on the crowd. You can make it a bit funny.
Kendra Perry: I would say the other thing too, is in the subject line, what I always put is in brackets, "Download," and the name of the thing.
Christine H.: Yes.
Kendra Perry: Make it really obvious so they're like, "I'm downloading this free sleep guide," and it says, "Download, Free sleep guide." I'm not searching for it. It's not some fancy email subject that I don't recognize as what I just downloaded. That's really important. In that confirmation email, this is not a time to sell, this is not a time to offer anything. Literally, keep it short and sweet. Say, "Thanks for downloading the guide, this is awesome. Here is the download button." They're just warming up at that point, so it's not time to pitch a course, or pitch a service, or even your free call in that email.
Christine H.: No, no, no. Don't do that.
Kendra Perry: Before we get into email sequence, could you just briefly speak to, Christine, just the GDPR [inaudible 00:10:59]? I think that's important for, I think everyone. Not just your emails, right?
Christine H.: No, I agree. Yeah, so GDPR has been creating [inaudible 00:11:05] especially in that two years ago when it came out. Basically, what it is, you need to know that it was a huge problem that too many people got spam emails. The European Union basically made it illegal to collect data. Well, illegally as we've discussed it now, but also certain types of data, and you have to have a structure within your company. There needs to be a designated person who is taking care of that. You need to make sure that you're never going to give the information that you gather from your people to a third party. All of that was created, and thrown out there. It's easy if you're a huge company and you have a legal team taking care of it. If you're a small business, it can be completely overwhelming.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine H.: In the beginning you had all worst case scenarios. Truth is that there hasn't been a single legal case done yet, so there is no previous court case yet. Chances that someone is going to pick on your little company to be the first one is very, very unlikely. There's different things that you can do. The double opt-in is one thing that is going to protect you straightaway. The other thing that you need to do is, you need to have a little checkbox below the opt-in form, which means there's a little box that people fill in their email address. We've discussed this before, if you want to add their first name or not. This little box, they need to check the box where they really give you consent through that. There again, the wording can be, "I agree with terms and conditions," or, "I agree with your privacy..."
Kendra Perry: Policy?
Christine H.: It used to be a bit tricky, because obviously the emails are being stored on your email marketing service. The questions was, is that a third party seller or not? I think no answer has really been found yet. There's a lot of nitty gritty on that. I'm not a complete legal expert on it. What I can recommend you to do, and I know that the Being Boss team, they have a podcast which I actually recommend, they have done tons of research on that. They spend a lot of money on that, and they have a great podcast episode on that too. Go, and check that out.
Christine H.: For the rest, I invested in a GDPR template that was developed by a lawyer here in Europe. I think she was German, I'm not sure. It's basically the linguistics, it's highlighting when you have to fill in your own things. It will ask you to have an office designated for all of this, but if you're a one-person company obviously you are going to be the officer. It just means that there needs to be a person that is good to be responsible for the information that you are collecting.
Christine H.: I think the little checkbox is the most important one. Personally, I also have to say that I'm a slacker, and I haven't done it. I also have to say that different email software is so much better at this than others. I know that MailerLite has one that is GDPR compliant. You just tick that box when you set up your opt-in box, and you just say you want your advert, and it is filled with GDPR compliant lingo. You basically don't have to worry about it.
Christine H.: The negative thing is that they can be off-putting to people. Every step that you're adding to the process of people giving you their information is going to put them off. It's literally the easiest, the quickest is the best. I also have to add that, of all the European websites that I've seen so far, there's not many that are actually doing this. Literally, none.
Christine H.: I think it was just a huge scare two years ago or so, and right now people are breathing again and it's loosening up again a little bit. What I would suggest you do is to have a double opt-in and to have a little checkbox next to your email box to make sure that people know that they are giving you their information, and where you say that you won't sell it, or that you won't share it with a third party. Then, you're good to go.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Yeah, and I just want to mention that-
Kendra Perry: Yes.
Christine H.: Sorry. That's one thing that you need to have.
Kendra Perry: The other thing I just want to mention is, this is something that applies to more than just Europeans. If anyone is opting in from Europe to your page, that technically makes you need to have [crosstalk 00:16:01].
Christine H.: ... reliable.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. If you don't know where your people are coming from, and I guarantee there might be one person, a few people, or even an American or a Canadian who are just in Europe traveling.
Christine H.: Exactly.
Kendra Perry: I think the double opt-in is a good way to go.
Christine H.: It's a good way to go. It's not compliant... That's not what I want to say. It's not mandatory. It's not something you need to do, but I just think you are covering your bases a bit if you have it, and make it fun. It's a pain-in-the-ass, but make it fun.
Kendra Perry: Definitely.
Christine H.: That would be a good one. All right.
Kendra Perry: All right, let's stop with the boring shit.
Christine H.: We already gave some good shit there, on how you can it less boring, so that's fun.
Kendra Perry: Okay, we're going to be talking about email nurture sequence, which is basically... it is a sequence of emails that you send new subscribers. The whole purpose of it is to build trust, to have them get to know you and your sort of method, and also how you can help them, right?
Christine H.: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kendra Perry: I can't remember the touch points, but usually before people invest, I read it was 36.
Christine H.: 36?
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine H.: Crazy.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, that's what Chalene Johnson said on her Build Your Tribe. She said it used to be much smaller, but these days it's about 35 or 36.
Christine H.: Oh, wow.
Kendra Perry: I might be a bit off on that number. What that means is that they need to see 36 different pieces, or come into contact with your brand 36 different times before they're ready to buy. That might be that they listen to a podcast episode, and then they receive an email. Then, they see a social media post, and then they get another email. That's the thing. That's why it's really important not to pitch too quickly, because it can people a really long time to warm up. I had two touch points with certain people and me, personally, I invested really quickly in certain people's things because I just connected instantly, so it's not going to be true for everyone. For some people it's going to be longer, right?
Christine H.: Yes.
Kendra Perry: That email sequence really just helps them get to know you, and decide if they like you and just get familiar with who you are, what you do and how you can really help them. I've seen email sequences be three emails, I've seen it be up to 30-40 emails. Again, it's going to be different for everyone.
Kendra Perry: Again, it depends on your business. You may have to test different lengths. For new people who haven't done this before, I usually recommend a six-email sequence. I think that's enough time to sort of tell your story, introduce your method and gain a bit of trust with your audience. We've already talked about email number one, which the only purpose of email number one is to deliver your free offer, and also, I say, set the stage.
Kendra Perry: I always tell people, if you're sending them another email, I just say, "I'm going to be sending you a few emails over the next couple weeks that's going to teach you about this, this and this." Tomorrow, or two days from now, or in an hour from now, or however you set it up, "I'm going to be sending you an email titled," insert subject line, "Stay tuned for that email."
Christine H.: Yes, great. [crosstalk 00:19:09] The other thing I really quickly want to mention is that we call it either email nurture sequence, or an email funnel. I just want to say that these two things are the same. It's just different lingo in marketing. Then, also it really depends, as Kendra said, on what your business is. If you want to sell products, if you want to sell coaching services, which I guess most of you do. It also depends on the price point. What do you want to sell at the end of your funnel?
Christine H.: The first thing you should do, and I think we were already talking about that when we discussed the freebie, which is people actually want, and give you their email address that triggers all of this. It has to be created with what you want to sell at the end of the sequence, right?
Kendra Perry: Yes.
Christine H.: We talk a lot about this, but you need to have the goal in mind first. Then, reverse-engineer it. What is your end goal so that you can seed, slowly and subtly, without shoving it down their throat. Have that in your mind first, and then email number one in this sequence, or funnel would be where you just deliver the freebie. That is basically the end. If you reverse-engineer it, it's actually the last step, so to say. That's just a little clarification for newbies who have no clue what we're talking.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and that's really important. It's like, if you ultimately want to sell them a program that helps them boost their energy, then your email nurture sequence shouldn't be about gut health, right?
Christine H.: Yes.
Kendra Perry: You keep coming back to one thing. This is the most important thing, and we know that most coaches are struggling with this. You need to have a clearly-defined niche. Not two, not three, not four, not 10. One niche that people actually know what it is. I see people niche-ing in metabolism. Nobody knows what metabolism is.
Christine H.: Nobody knows what it is.
Kendra Perry: Right?
Christine H.: Yes. Don't forget that your lingo needs to be what they speak, not what you learned in your education.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, absolutely. I know health coaches are super nerdy, and you want to prove that you're smart, and that you're knowledged. If you speak in words that they don't understand, there'll be no connection. You just want to make sure that everything is connected, which is a really good point.
Christine H.: You can have several of those sequences, or funnels in your business. If you have, for example, products, if you have a supplement line, or if you have DIY programs, or Evergreen programs, you might have different opt-ins on your website that will lead to those different product [inaudible 00:21:35]. You would have different funnels in your email marketing software.
Christine H.: What we're going to teach you today, you can basically take those emails and just personalize them to that product, or service that you are designing. The content, their personality, or the feeling that [inaudible 00:21:53] about is going to be the same.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and guys, I have a template. I have an email nurture sequence template, and we will link to that in the show notes so that you guys can get access to that. I think that'll be really helpful.
Kendra Perry: In your nurture sequence, let's say we've delivered the freebie. You're going to send them another email, and you might send it an hour later, you might send it a day later, you might send it two days later. It depends, and you may have to play with that. You can set this up with any email marketing platform. This is going to be called an automation, I believe, in most email platforms.
Christine H.: In automation, or workflow I've seen it as well.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, right. I think I've seen it as workflow too, yeah. The first email that you sent after that confirmation email, this was email number two... You want to tell them your compelling story about either why you struggled with your own health that's related to your niche, or maybe why you're so passionate about it. I guess not all of us have personal stories with our niche, but if you do have a personal story, tell it. If you don't, there's obviously a reason why you decided to niche in this, and you obviously feel passionate about it for a reason. Tell that story, and you want to make it compelling, okay?
Christine H.: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kendra Perry: People want to know your story, but you also want to refer back to them as much as possible.
Christine H.: Yes, certainly.
Kendra Perry: I like to do, can you relate? Does that make sense? Have you had that experience? Is this familiar? Always coming back to them. You really want to spend some time on this. You want to make sure your story is compelling. Then, what I do with this is, I basically end the email in the middle of the story climax, or that most dramatic part of the story. That's going to be... I think I've heard it called a few different things, and I'm gapping on it, but literally it's that darkest point, or that vague transition point in the story where everything changed. Usually, we can tell a story somehow in that way, where you maybe were interested in health and then suddenly you realize, you're like, "Oh, my God," or in your own personal story you were like, "I was struggling so hard, I hit rock bottom. Then, I discovered this thing."
Kendra Perry: End that story in the middle of the climax so they're like, "Oh, my God, I need to know what happens next." Then, you're going to say, in one day, in two days, in three days, whatever, "I'm going to send you the next email titled..." Give them the title, "where I'm going to share this, this and this." The rest of your story. Yeah.
Christine H.: Exactly. That's something that happens too much, and it depends, I guess, whether your clients are confronted with this a lot or not, I personally can see through this now. I don't like it if I get too many emails at once. Yeah, sometimes I recommend to start with one a day, and then space it out every two days. I like that, actually, but just tell them in a couple of days you're going to get the next [inaudible 00:24:42] or something like that.
Kendra Perry: I think I send my note every two days. That seems to work for me.
Christine H.: I think that's polite. Yeah, exactly. The other thing that you can do is, while you are talking about your story you can already sprinkle in a testimonial. What you can say is, which later on have my client X, Y, Z with their da-da-da. It's just going to be read fluidly. People don't really realize that they've read this testimonial already, but they are ready to connect with you with success stories about their problems. That's a good way of doing it. Then, I think what we do a lot in our emails is, can you relate, or if you have a question reply to me now. Just say, "Reply to this email," and actually those people do that.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I do that in pretty much every email I send out. I say, "Reply to this email and let me know." It's great, because if they actually do reply to that email, your emails are probably never going to end up in their spam, or promotions ever again, which is great in terms of deliverability. You can also get a lot of research. You can learn a lot about them. I store all these email replies in my Gmail, and then when I'm going to writing a sales page, or creating some sort of training I literally go through, and I look at the words they're using, and how they're describing their problem. You can actually learn a lot about them. Then, people are pretty excited when they reply, and then you actually reply back and help them.
Christine H.: Yes. Exactly.
Kendra Perry: They're like, "Oh, my God, I can't believe you responded." That's a really good way to do that. Now, I often add that in a PS. I'll be like, "PS: Reply to this email with," blah-blah-blah, or at the end of the email. Then, in your email number three, that's where you're telling the part two of your story, where you're basically telling them exactly how you solved your problem, or you solved someone else's problem. You basically teach them how you're going to show them to do the same with their problem.
Kendra Perry: You just sort of pick up on that story, and then what you want to do is, again, tell them, "I'm going to send you another email in two days," or whatever and, "This is the title of the next email."
Christine H.: Yeah.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine H.: Those would be a couple of things. Run through your sequence, and I'm going to go and do other things as well, so we're going to see.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. All right, so email number four, I call this Aggravate the Problem and Surprise Them. Remember, they have a problem, I'm just going to use fatigue as an example. When I say aggravate the problem, you really want to make them feel like, this is a problem. I'm tired all the time. I wake up and I'm tired. I walk through the day like a fucking zombie because I'm exhausted. I come home and I'm even more tired. This is causing me pain. I'm missing out on all these other things I want to do in my life because I'm so fucking tired. You really want to speak to those pain points. Pain points are basically the problems that your ideal client has. If we use fatigue as an example, it might be, "I wake up in the morning and I feel like shit, even though I slept for eight hours." That's a pain point, right?
Christine H.: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kendra Perry: "I crash in the middle of the day at 2:00 PM, and I need to have a nap." That's a pain point, right?
Christine H.: Exactly.
Kendra Perry: Try to think of all those issues that they have in relation to the one bigger problem that they have.
Christine H.: Great. Okay, surprise them.
Kendra Perry: With Surprise Them, it's kind of like empower them that they have the power to change their situation. That's how you surprise them, because they may have been told by doctors that, "You're just a middle aged woman, and you're just getting older," right?
Christine H.: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kendra Perry: They've probably been disempowered with their health. They may not actually really know, or feel that they can change their problems. Surprise them by telling them that, "Hey, your health is your responsibility, and you can change this. I changed this, and I've changed this in all these other people I've worked with," if you have. You're surprising them to be like, "You know what? This is in your control, and you can change things." That's how you surprise them.
Kendra Perry: I also like to throw in there to tell them it's not their fault. You know? You don't want them feel bad.
Christine H.: Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah, huge one.
Kendra Perry: Most people have been given terrible information about their health, or they've been told...
Christine H.: This is it.
Kendra Perry: ...You're just a woman, this is normal, you're just getting older. Oh, it's because you're in your late 30s."
Christine H.: Exactly. Here's your diagnosis, now live with it, you know?
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine H.: Exactly. Just saying, if you don't have that story... For example, I don't have personal stories, I use my clients' stories. I would, for example, describe what they tell me when we are on our first call together. Especially with them, I really use similar language. Then, for the surprise factor I would say something, "What he didn't know," or, "What she didn't know was that..." Something that I know when I tell it to my clients their eyes light up, and they're like, "What?" This is actually one of these little things that will already make people feel like, "I knew that there was a link there, but nobody believed me," something like that. That's the surprise element. I just use someone else's story and it works really well. You can write a beautiful narrative.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I love that you're saying narrative. People really connect to stories. Stories are very much in our DNA. Our ancestors shared stories to spread information. If you can make it like a story, then people are going to be really engaged, and really into it. Then, always at the end of this email you tell them the title of your next email coming, and when you're going to send it.
Kendra Perry: Then, in email five, this is where I like to devote a entire email to a testimonial. Where you share, and if that person has given you permission to use their image, put an image in there. Just tell the story. The whole email is of [Gemma 00:30:36], who was able to reverse her fatigue even though she'd been diagnosed with chronic fatigue, and had it for 10 years, right?
Christine H.: Yeah.
Kendra Perry: How were they able to solve it? Using your particular method, right?
Christine H.: Exactly.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine H.: Perfect.
Kendra Perry: Again, if you don't have one yet, you could use yourself if you have that personal information, or you could use a friend, a family member, a mentor. Someone who... just anyone.
Christine H.: Yeah, yeah, yeah. At this point, you can actually include your first more pointed call to actions. What that means is, ask them to do something. Before my email sequences were, at the moment I don't have one because I'm too lazy. I am going to do one for this year, and I'm going to record it so stay tuned, I'm going to accomplish that. In the beginning you don't ask them, you just give. You literally just give them. You give them your best story, and something you can maybe do is, "Oh, by the way, here is one of my most popular blog posts. Maybe this can help you to get started straightaway." Something that you already have, they can just click through.
Christine H.: You spoil them, basically. You give them stuff, "Here's a free training that I did. Maybe this can be helpful," and it talks about what I've just talked about in the email. Then, by the time you have the email with a client testimonial, that's when you can actually start asking for something from them. Which could be, "Why don't you book a call and see? If you have questions, just reply here, or just book a call with me." I think this is a good time when you can slowly start to ask for something. Still, don't tell them about a paying program yet.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I agree. Amy Porterfield calls this micro-conversions, which I really like. You can do this sort of through your email sequence, and my micro-conversions are always in the PSs. I'll be like, "PS: I have an Instagram account where I share business training for health coaches. Make sure to follow me if you're interested." Then, the next might be guests, have a YouTube channel, blah-blah-blah.
Kendra Perry: It's these micro-conversions where they're just small. They're not really asking much of anyone. There's just letting people know that they can click here, get more information. It gets them used to clicking. I always throw those in the PS. I throw them in pretty much any email that I sent out. There's always a PS that tells them to check to something like, "Do you know of a podcast? Check on my podcast. Subscribe if you're interested." Sometimes, people want to binge your stuff. They want more. They're loving it, and they want to see more of your content. If you don't tell them it's there, then they're not going to go and find it on their own.
Christine H.: Exactly. You want to draw them into that rabbit hole of content of yours, into your universe, basically. You want them to gush about you. You want them to know you before you pitch them something. Oh, yeah.
Kendra Perry: Totally agree. Then, the sixth email, this is where I do the full pitch email. I don't just start by saying, "Hey, here's my thing, sign up." I actually explain the method, and how it has really helped me or the client. Again, you're seeding in more testimonial. You're like, "This is my method." I do recommend that, for whatever you do, create some sort of method, or some sort of step-by-step...
Christine H.: Always.
Kendra Perry: ... because there's certain people who make decisions based on knowing that there is a step-by-step process.
Christine H.: Yes, that there's logic behind the madness. [crosstalk 00:34:03] the process.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, they want to know that you can get them from A to B to C, and they want to know that there's a process. Not everyone makes decisions like that, but some people do, right?
Christine H.: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kendra Perry: There's a really interesting assessment called Colby Assessment. I actually use this with my sales page, because it tells you how people make decisions. Some people are quick start, so they make really quick, impulsive decisions. They're just super fast. There is the fact finders, which need all the information. They need to do all the research. Then, there's the... I can't remember the name of it, the one that wants the A, to B, to C. I can't remember the name of it, but you can look it up. They're the ones that want the step-by-step. That's why I think, regardless of what you're doing, turn it into a method, or a step-by-step process.
Christine H.: Always, and it has to be yours. Your signature method. For me, it's the Sleep Like A Boss method. It's signature, it's proprietary. Get a patent [inaudible 00:34:58], actually, and trademark. That's what's going to make you money, and maybe give you the possibility to even license it out later. Just be savvy about this, even if you're at the very beginning. If you think you're onto something and you've created something amazing that works, just keep it in mind.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, or even if your method is, you're like, we talk about diet, then we talk about life sell. Then, we talk about whatever. That's still a step-by-step process, right?
Christine H.: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kendra Perry: It doesn't need to be complicated.
Christine H.: No, no.
Kendra Perry: Just call it something, because that's what will draw people in. Then, it's easier because you're like, "This is my method. This is how it's helped. This is the process of my method, and this is the solution that I can help you achieve." You really want to focus on in the pitch email. Don't list out the features of your program, and what they're get. Features just meaning, you get a 60-minute consult, and then you get access to this app. Then, you get a Facebook group. Then, you get testing, or whatever. Those are features, and that's not what sells something. People buy because of the outcome you can help them achieve. You really want to go through, what are they going to feel like if they decide to invest in you? What's that going to look like? How is their life going to be better? How is their life going to be worse if they don't take this step, right?
Christine H.: Exactly. Exactly. Then, you literally just tell them, "Click here if this is for you," or something like that.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and for a lot of you guys, I know a lot of you guys are doing one-on-one programs. You're just going to send them the link to your free sales call, or enrollment call, qualifying call, whatever you want to call it, where basically... We should do an episode on sales because I think a lot of people really fuck up sales calls. The sales call-
Christine H.: We will, we will.
Kendra Perry: It's not a health history. It's not a coaching call. It's literally you inviting them to see if they're ready to transform. You see if they're ready to change.
Christine H.: Exactly.
Kendra Perry: You just want to qualify them, and see if they actually are a good fit for your program, and if they're someone you can help.
Christine H.: There's something you can do as well, especially with health coaching. Our clients are not necessarily who are like us, or like Kendra and I at least, who do a lot of marketing geeking. You can actually tell them that you only work with a certain number of people, or are opening a certain number of spots. With me, that's actually true. I only work with five people at a time. Even if it's not true, it will help those who are on the fence finally prioritize.
Christine H.: It's not just like I'm pokering, or I'm lying. Essentially, [inaudible 00:37:22] game time, and this is time to change your health. When you just tell them, "I'm opening up my schedule for a certain number of people, so make sure you don't miss it," I think it still works. When I'm interested in something and I stop someone and I see it, it still triggers that FOMO in me, you know?
Kendra Perry: Yeah, yeah. I think people need urgency, right?
Christine H.: Yeah.
Kendra Perry: They need a bit of pressure to take action. Don't be upset if, at this point the person still doesn't book the call. Remember, we said 36 touch points, right?
Christine H.: [crosstalk 00:37:59] sometimes, yeah.
Kendra Perry: Exactly. It will depend on how many touch points they've had with you before they opted in for your freebie and went through the email sequence. Maybe they were only four in, so they might not be ready yet but that's why we're sending out weekly emails. That's where you want to email your list weekly, and provide them with value. For each one of those emails that you send out, that's another touch point. It's getting them closer to the point where, if they are interested in investing, that they're going to want to invest.
Christine H.: Agreed.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. If you want to get into more complex stuff, if people don't book the sales call you can follow up with more emails, reminding them or whatever. Obviously, that gets a bit more complicated, and I know a lot of you guys probably just have really basic email marketing skills. Just so you know what the possibility is, right?
Christine H.: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Kendra Perry: You can track people who book a sales call, and then follow up. Sometimes, people are interested, but then their baby starts crying and they go to the baby, and they've forgotten about it. It happens all the time, right?
Christine H.: Exactly.
Kendra Perry: What do we have? Four-second attention span? Less than that of a goldfish? There you go.
Christine H.: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely, agreed.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine H.: I think that's it. Is there anything that we have?
Kendra Perry: Yeah, so that's our email nurture sequence. We will make sure to link to the template, if you guys want to grab that in the show notes, which basically just explains out all these sort of steps in detail that you might find helpful. Then, you can be on our email list.
Christine H.: Exactly. There's different things. I know that we say a lot of the times that I'm actually just [inaudible 00:39:29] playing around with it at the moment. I'm seeing staggering numbers, but just like before we said you shouldn't use any pictures or so forth in your email. Actually, I'm using a new software that's called FlowDesk, and it's really pretty. It's in beta, so it's not sophisticated, it doesn't have bells and whistles yet, but it's beautiful. I have to say, my conversion is up in the 50%s, which is a lot, but you make conversion. It's doing really, really well. I know it's glitchy with other people sometimes, but it's actually shifted my perception on whether you should use photos or not. I can see that my crowd really likes, and responds to pretty, which makes sense because my whole branding is built on doing that [crosstalk 00:40:16].
Kendra Perry: I always recommend to keep images out of that first confirmation email. Right?
Christine H.: Oh, yeah. Don't do it on the first one.
Kendra Perry: That's when they're not engaged. Later on, once people have gone through my email sequence, and then I'm sending them weekly emails I might actually have images in those, because at that point they're engaged. They've opened up a few of my emails and told their email service provider that actually this is not spam.
Christine H.: Exactly. It looks just beautiful. We get so many ugly emails, and just having something pretty in your life, it's just going to help them to at least have a longer glance. Then, what I like about this one is actually that you have a little Instagram feed of your last three posts at the bottom. Which I really like, because it gives you an insight into what you do. It's just more personal, and I feel that as coaches we sell based on emotion. We sell based on, yes, people want the logic, but the first thing they're going to see is whether they can connect with you.
Christine H.: It's a bit of a different game than when you're selling an Etsy store or something like that. It's a different ball game. You have to keep that emotion in mind, which is also why the sequence we've just presented is based so much on story. Much more than if you sell underwear, or I don't know, something else, a product. This is just why it differentiates a bit from what you've seen in other podcasts, or marketing courses or so forth. It's just what we see works well with the people we want to help.
Kendra Perry: That's great. Is it an app that you use to add your Instagram feed into the bottom of the email?
Christine H.: It's just part of their software. It's just a drag and drop thing, and you just drop the Instagram feed and it connects to Instagram. It's a pain sometimes to use, switch it off, switch it on again. Then, every email that goes out, which is every week for me, has the last three posts of my Instagram feed.
Kendra Perry: That's awesome.
Christine H.: Yeah, it's pretty cool.
Kendra Perry: If you guys don't have FlowDesk, I'm sure there's a third party app out there that will do that, you know?
Christine H.: Yes. I'm sure there is.
Kendra Perry: I guarantee it. Yeah, I put all kinds of weird things into the bottom of my email. Especially during launches. Put little timers in there, and all that stuff.
Christine H.: Exactly.
Kendra Perry: I'm sure something exists. That's all we got for you guys, and I really hope that was helpful. If you are listening to this episode on your phone, make sure to screen shot this episode, share it to your Instagram stories and tag 360 Health Biz Podcast, and let us know your take homes. We would love that.
Christine H.: Love, love, love.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine H.: Anything new, leave us a five-star review, let us know. Yeah, thanks for listening, I guess.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Again, we're always shocked when anyone wants to listen to us.
Christine H.: I know. You just think it's a conversation between the two of us.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine H.: [inaudible 00:42:58] It's weird.
Kendra Perry: We're out there.
Christine H.: All right, you guys. Have a wonderful day. Make sure you listen to these other episodes that we have, and talk to you very soon.
It’s 2020 – a new year, a new decade, a new plan to tackle your business goals and excel! But where do you start when it comes to planning? We have Kathryn Hofer joining us on today’s 360 Health Biz Podcast episode to chat all about planning for your life and your business.
In this episode, Kathryn discusses:
- approaches to planning, including the next step and project planning
- determining what your maintenance tasks are (no, this isn’t changing the oil in your car..though you should do that a few times a year)
- “no means not now” and creating boundaries in business
- the 2x rule when it comes to learning tech stuff
- time management tips
- planning as an action word and creating the framework to activate
Kathryn Hofer is the founder of Modern Planner, an online community designed to take the dread out of planning and help people live more intentionally. Lovingly referred to as the “champion of boundaries and guilt-free intentional living,” Kathryn is passionate about helping overwhelmed and overworked people slow down, create space for what matters, and make meaningful progress toward their goals. When she isn’t hosting a Planning Party or connecting with the members of her community, you can probably find Kathryn hanging out with her family, spending time outside or curled up with a good book.
Check out the full episode show notes on 360 Health Biz Podcast.
Have you put a crap load of money into Facebook advertising only to hear crickets? You aren’t alone. Like many marketing tasks, there is an actual strategy required to be successful with Facebook ads. But where does one start? Should you wing it, should you DIY it, should you hire someone, what kind of budget do you look at? In today’s 360 Health Biz Podcast episode, we have Meg Brunson to break this all down for us…plus more!
Before you even start putting out Facebook ads, there are three things you absolutely MUST have..a proven product (with a proven sales funnel), and email list with an email sequence, and some money to play around with because like we have said in previous episodes, social media marketing is all about testing.
In addition to testing Facebook ads, in this episode we discuss:
- the difference between a lead and a conversion
- how Facebook ad algorithm works
- what can & can’t be advertised on Facebook
- the biggest things that health and wellness businesses get flagged for on Facebook
- the do’s and don’t for ad images
- how to write engaging Facebook ad copy
- scheduling Facebook ads & the review process
- Facebook pixels
Meg is a former Facebook employee who provides marketing support to parents who want to build their business without feeling guilt over the "balance" of family & entrepreneurship. Her clients enjoy predictable leads/traffic and positive ROI within 3 months - and spend more time making happy memories with their kids than they do stressed over their marketing.
Connect with Meg:
Take Meg’s quiz, What is missing from your Facebook marketing strategy?: https://www.megbrunson.com/boss
Connect with us on social:
Christine H.: Hello everyone, and welcome to this new episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. Today, you are being greeted by my wonderful, sexy, beautiful, smart and [inaudible 00:00:14] today, cohost [Stace 00:00:17] Kendra. By myself, Christine Hansen. We also have a very, very special guest for you here, and it's very timely because we have a huge rant yesterday on YouTube about this topic. Strap your seat belt on because this is going to be a juicy one.
Christine H.: It's going to save you tons of money and it's going to make you tons of money, and what's not to love about that? Without further ado, we're going to introduce her, so Kendra, take it away.
Kendra: All right. We have Meg Brunson here. She is a former Facebook employee, which is very exciting, who provides marketing support to parents who want to build their business without feeling guilt over the balance of family and entrepreneurship. I love that. Your clients enjoy predictable leads, traffic, and positive ROI within three months, and spend more time making happy memories with their kids than they do stressing over their marketing. Awesome. Welcome Meg. Thank you for being here.
Meg Brunson: Thank you for having me.
Christine H.: Brilliant copy, by the way.
Meg Brunson: Well thank you.
Kendra: Well, I love that so much. Before we started and before we hit the record button, you were telling us a little bit about your life right now. You can tell us a little bit more about what you're up to and how you got into Facebook ads and Facebook marketing.
Meg Brunson: Yeah, so let me start back a little ways. I was always a little bit entrepreneurial, but for a long time I was just side hustling it until my third pregnancy. When I got terribly sick almost died at times, and told my husband, "I'm done punching a clock and I'm going to do this entrepreneurship thing full time. I'm going to make it work, I'm going to figure it out." That's what I did, I was kind of an accidental entrepreneur, as I like to call it. I had to figure out marketing.
Meg Brunson: At that time, it was a little bit different because this was, gosh, seven, eight years ago. Facebook marketing was totally different than it is now, but I leveraged it and loved it, and was very successful with it then. I quickly became kind of go-to-person in my circles for Facebook ads. This is a very abbreviated story. We moved across the country. I interviewed for a job at Facebook. I almost didn't even get the interview because they were like, "Wait, you were a criminal justice major and you've got no experience with traditional marketing channels. Are you sure this is job you want to apply for?"
Meg Brunson: I was like, "Oh, yeah. I've thrown myself into learning this stuff." They gave me the interview and were like, "We're going to test your knowledge, this isn't just" ... "Yeah, I'm fine. I'll do it." I interviewed, I got the job. I worked at Facebook for about a year, so it wasn't a terribly long time and it was quite simple [inaudible 00:02:59]. I tasted the entrepreneurial freedom and flexibility. I at that point had four children, and I just didn't want to punch a clock. I didn't want to put 40 hours in at any job, no matter how-
Kendra: Yeah. I get that.
Meg Brunson: -more present to my family. I left Facebook, I built my business on my own for two years before I left my four bedroom home. We piled my entire family, my husband and I, and four kids into a 35 foot RV. We've been traveling the United States for four months now, with the goal of hitting all 48 contiguous States in a year. We're 28 States in.
Christine H.: Wow. I'm a huge fan of tiny house nation and [OCA Haida 00:03:46] stuff. I can only imagine, but we did. Okay, I'm a drama queen. You have to know, I do love my luxuries, but we did 10 days of ... It's not [inaudible 00:03:57], it's much smaller. It's like one of these Kempster kind of things, like the California thing than where you have the car and you have your, you can lift the roof and stuff. We did make it happen, but it's just not my thing. Having four children in there, I'm like, "Woman, there's something different to you?"
Christine H.: I don't know. I'd use my mind entirely, but I think it's the best story ever. Yeah, obviously, it says as something I think about entrepreneurship. I agree, you can never go back. It's just once you know it, once that flame is kindled, there's just no way that it's ever going to go back. Facebook is just, it's the coolest thing in the world. I would know to say that I've worked for Facebook, it's just so fun. You could just have my coffee and it would have been fine.
Christine H.: What obviously was so interesting to us was that, your business that you've now been building is on Facebook ads. One of the things that we vented about was that, people even very beginner beginners. Let's say, people who happen a little bit in business but haven't really had lots of clients yet or who have maybe just created a course without even looking at what they can do or without experience of [inaudible 00:05:13] sold in different words, but in essence that Facebook ads is the silver bullet.
Christine H.: If you have a huge ad budget, you will see a return in investment guaranteed. I will quote, and the reason why I can run, I know a lot about this business because we both been working with Facebook managers. We've both invested tons of money and we did the whole, that was like a year ago, I would say. We did the whole weapon off funnel off thing and it went wrong in so many ways. We left a lot of money on the table.
Christine H.: We talked about how you actually need to know what you're selling, but I think it woke us a little bit through when is the golden time to actually say, "Okay, I'm ready for Facebook ads." Should you wing it, should you DIY it, should you hire someone, what kind of budget do you look at? Also, because we are in the health space, what are the challenges you might expect there that, let's say, if you hire someone who's only used to work with business coaches or with maybe product services, might not expect and probably gauge wrong.
Meg Brunson: Oh, there's so much.
Christine H.: Go ahead.
Meg Brunson: How much time do we have? I would say, before you start running Facebook ads, there's a couple of things that you should have clear. The first one is, I really honestly believe you should have a proven product that's made money. [crosstalk 00:06:46]. That's the most important part. But Mark Zuckerberg, CEO of Facebook, he has enough money, so do not run ads on Facebook just to donate to his fund. He doesn't need your money. Do not be investing in Facebook ads until you have a plan to get that money back.
Meg Brunson: I think one of the number one mistakes I see people make is they're like, "Oh well, I just posted really good and Facebook told me if I spent $20, I would reach 10,000 more people and so I boosted the post." I'm [inaudible 00:07:21], "Did you make any money or I don't know. You just donated $10 to the Zuckerberg fund, you don't even know what it did for you." I tell people to ignore those little messages from Facebook.
Meg Brunson: Those are like the candy bars in the grocery store aisle. [inaudible 00:07:42], they're quick, they're easy. It's Facebook's way of getting you to experiment and spend some money, which I don't think is a bad idea. But I think people do it too quickly before they really even understand how Facebook ads work. I did the same thing. I'm going to be really honest here, we were in '70, I made some of the same mistakes. I was running Facebook ads and at the time, I was trying to get people to join my list. That was my number one goal.
Meg Brunson: I would boost posts then I would look at my list to be like, "Well, I got these many people and normally I get this many people so it's working, I think." Then I found ads manager and there were all these different ads you could run. I'm an official person, a creative artsy person. I created a couple and I was like, "Well, they all look the same, so it doesn't really matter. I'll just run this one."
Meg Brunson: Now I know better, that's not how ads work. Number one, have a proven product, meaning that you're getting sales from it. It's important to know that you're driving traffic to an offer that people want, that your copy is right. Maybe the product is fine but your copy is not right, so prove that funnel and you can get that traffic organically from Facebook groups.
Meg Brunson: There's so many ways to get those initial sales that just not require throwing a ton of money into Facebook ads. That's number one; you need to have a funnel, a product. You need to have an email list and an email sequence.
Kendra: [inaudible 00:09:25] with that. We have people who didn't even have list. They were selling stuff and they didn't have an email list. That was just like tears in my eyes, like seriously.
Meg Brunson: I've had clients that are like, "Oh no, I don't use an email service. Can you just email me each lead as they come in." I'm like, "You've got to get a list. You need a list." People will say email marketing is dead. One of the things that I think a lot of people do is; they look at themselves and they'll say, "I don't open a lot of promotional emails, therefore, nobody does," and it's not true.
Christine H.: No, it's not.
Meg Brunson: Email marketing is not that. You need to have a sequence.
Kendra: You do. I'm guilty of being [inaudible 00:10:05] investing and my funnel is one welcome email. But I do have a weekly blog post that's going out biweekly, once a week it's for sleep and the other week is business. I have something created every week. I have to say, most of my friends aren't on my email list. But I've really with looking with Instagram and things, and how unreliable it is, it's 2020, it's for me back to the email.
Kendra: I can [inaudible 00:10:31] priority focus. I left it aside a little bit, but now that I'm like, "Okay, I have everything set up." Actually, I can now really focus on it and have the subscribers. I purge often and I throw people out if they're inactive for 30 days and it leaves me with a really, really good pool of people. It's back in my priorities. I think you can do it in ways, you can say this [inaudible 00:10:56] a lot of time.
Kendra: It's not, I think the first thing you need to do to really focus on building the list. I think it focus on building the product, the list will have been part of it. But for sure, I totally agree that email marketing is dead, right? I can tell.
Meg Brunson: No matter what your field or your expertise at, there are other people who do what you do. I am not the only Facebook ads manager in the world, but I'm just not. No matter what you do, sleep, there are other people that do ... No matter what you do, so you have to think about that. If somebody wants your product or your service, they've got a selection of people to go with. You need to hook them with your freebie, get them onto your list.
Meg Brunson: Then, how many times do you buy a product that you've never heard of before? You don't. You like it, you follow it, you research it, you get more information and you make the purchase later. I've heard seven touches. It could take seven touches, sometimes it takes more, sometimes it takes them less. People need to know and trust you, and I feel like that's one of those cliche things that everybody sells. But it's cliche for a reason, because-
Kendra: I agree. Exactly. I think you need to know that they can trust you or they need to, right from the gate, know who you are. Which is why we teach how to use your own voice, how to even figure out what your voice is, so that you can shortcut the process. Because people usually don't follow me for a long time. It's impulse buying because they are [inaudible 00:12:29], but it's an exception. Mainly in-house, it is long stock before they get in touch. That's what it is [inaudible 00:12:38].
Meg Brunson: Yeah. I know I'm kind of jumping around, but having the email list, having a proven funnel and then I think having money to play with. I don't mean we're just going to throw money away here, but ads are not a guarantee. I have to tell people this, I feel like I'm the worst salesperson because I'm brutally honest.
Christine H.: No. We're honest. It's the best sales per se.
Meg Brunson: I had a woman say, "Well, you're not making me feel very confident about this." I was like, "Well, I think there's a lot of things you have to do before we're going to see the return. I'm happy to work with you through that, but I don't think we're going to see a return in the first two or three months." She's like, "Well, then-
Christine H.: Because I feel so many people take the hard-earned cash that they've just earned, and it's like the last hurrah. They're going to say, "Okay, now I'm just going to invest it in. That's what's going to help me to make it." What kind of budget do we even look at? Because I think people have no clue how much they could need to invest or even figure out what Facebook likes and what it doesn't. What are we talking about, is it just 100 bucks, is 1,000? I was amazed that, I think people have no clue.
Meg Brunson: It really depends upon your goals and it depends on your funnel. I'll break that down a little bit because I know that's fluffy and it doesn't really answer your question. I want to look at like a typical funnel, where you want to get a lead on your email list, and then you want to get a conversion. This is very basic, like two step right [inaudible 00:14:19]. The cost for getting one lead is going to be less than the cost for getting one conversion, right?
Meg Brunson: It just makes sense because there's less skin in the game, it's easier for somebody to make that decision. If you want to run a lead-ad, you're going to need to spend less money than if you're running a conversion. I'm just trying to break down those basics.
Christine H.: By the way, what's between lead and conversion?
Meg Brunson: A lead is an email. I'm going to give you this piece of value, whether it's an opt-in or a blog post, or whatever. I'm going to give you some value and you're going to give me your email. Now you've obtained a lead. There's two ways I should say. You can do that as a conversion ad, but you can also run it as a lead generation campaign. Which is, I'm going to be honest, my favorite. The difference is, the conversion ads, you're driving traffic to your website, to your opt-in page.
Meg Brunson: We've got it all nice and pretty email, and [inaudible 00:15:18]. Generation ad is, it's all on Facebook so you don't need an opt-in page. This is really great for people who are not as tech savvy, maybe they don't have a landing page builder or may be to be just have a WordPress website, and they don't have ClickFunnels, or Kartra, or Kajabi, or something. With the lead generation ads, when the user clicks the button to learn more or sign up, it's a pop-up window internally on Facebook.
Meg Brunson: It loads faster than your opt-in page; one, because it's internal and it will also automatically populate information from the user's Facebook page. If you're asking for email, it'll automatically populate the email. That either, they use to sign into Facebook with, the most recent email they've used on Facebook and another lead-ad. It makes it really quick and easy. It's mobile optimized and everything happens on mobile, everything. Mobile is like 95 something where they see less percent of Facebook traffic.
Meg Brunson: Lead-ads are really great. Then after they submit the information, you can direct them to a thank you page and you can use Zapier. Is a third-party integration tool to link Facebook lead-ads to whatever CRM you're using: Mailchimp ConvertKit, Kartra, Infusionsoft, literally anything. I really like that for generating leads because it's quick, it's easy and it works.
Meg Brunson: Then when I'm talking about conversions, I'm talking about selling your product or service. Whether it's a course or a strategy session, or something you're actually going to pop in the mail and send to them. [inaudible 00:16:58] because that requires money, so it's going to be more expensive. You might get leads for a dollar a lead, or sometimes they're more expensive. I also tell people, it depends upon your niche, what you're selling.
Meg Brunson: At one point last, I had two clients at the same exact time. One was getting leads for $25 per lead and one was getting leads for 25 cents a lead. They were both thrilled. It can be $5 leads. On the back-end, she was selling into a series of products that culminated up to $10,000 coaching plan. Her return justified the higher lead costs. Then the 25 cent leads were like a parenting blog and she was leveraging them to get more sponsors and stuff. That was really great for her.
Meg Brunson: There's not like a cost per lead that's baseline, but it really depends upon your business, your nerves and how you're able to convert them on the back-end after getting them on your list. Which is why that email metric sequence is not to be ignored. Understanding those basics, now I want to step back and explain how Facebook ad algorithm works. When you select what type of ad you want to run and the objective, your campaign level of those ads. In order for Facebook to optimize correctly, you need to get 50 of those actions, 50.
Meg Brunson: Here's what conversion, again, I feel like I use that word a lot and it means a lot of different things, but 50 of those actions in order for the campaign to optimize. What'll happen is, you're going to say, let's just use leads as an example, the lead-ad. You're going to run a lead-ad and you build an audience. Let's just say there's a million people in the audience. I'm going to try to keep numbers relatively easy.
Meg Brunson: Facebook at the very beginning is going to serve this ad out to some people in your audience. All million will not see it, some people. As people start to respond to get leads, Facebook's going to say, "Oh, so these four people responded, what makes them unique from the other 12 people who didn't respond yet?" Then it's going to try to find the people in your audience that are most likely to give you their lead information, so that it can optimize the process.
Meg Brunson: Facebook, many people do not [inaudible 00:19:41], but they want you to be successful. Yes, they want to take your money because they're a business and that's one way that they generate revenue. If you watched the Mark Zuckerberg in front of Congress, you learned that. But they want you to be successful because if you get what you want, you're going to spend more money with them.
Meg Brunson: They're not trying to trick you, and I love taking all your money so that you're broken, upset, and never come back. It's much more lucrative if you can tell Facebook what you want, then Facebook can deliver it and then you keep coming back for more. When you set that ad, you need to get those 50 conversions, which I'm coming back to how much money you should part with this.
Meg Brunson: In the beginning, you need to test it out if you've never run a Facebook ads. You may need to put $100 into it and see how much are your cost per leads. I could talk for days about tips to get that lower and best practices with targeting, and creative, and copy, and all that stuff. But just general big picture, figure out what your cost per lead is.
Meg Brunson: Then multiply it by 50, because you need to get 50 of those in order for your ad to optimize. Now worst case scenario, you need to get 50 within a week. But the sooner you can get those 50, the better. If you can afford to get 50 in a day, that should be your budget.
Kendra: Got it. Awesome. [crosstalk 00:21:07].
Christine H.: -front-load the ad a little bit. Front-load, spend more money up front to get it to optimize quickly. Then you can downsize as you figure out what your cost per lead is and what you actually want to spend, and the ad is optimized, right?
Meg Brunson: Sure. I think it's also important, you should be making money off these ads. If the ads are [inaudible 00:21:26] you're closing sales, you shouldn't have to downsize that. You're going to want [inaudible 00:21:32] because it's going to come back at you with a profit. But again, talking about having a little money to play with, if you're just starting out, you're going to be starting with something like lead generation.
Meg Brunson: Something that's more top funnel, if you will; awareness, building that knowledge trust factor. You're not going to go right in for the kill in month one.
Christine H.: I think that's so important for people to understand because they have everything ready. It's all shiny. Then you can get that on [inaudible 00:22:02] or whatever site, and then they're like, "Okay, now let's sell this baby," and I was like, "Wow."
Kendra: Yeah. I think you guys talked about it when I had been randomly dropping off through this call because of my shitty wifi connection. But I think with health and wellness, it can be a longer touch point. People take more time to warm up. We actually talked about this yesterday. Christine has a pretty quick conversion, probably because she's done a really good job of doing her media appearances and being featured in a lot of places.
Kendra: You've got street cred. But for me, people will creep me for a long time. Especially when I was in health and wellness, people would come out of the woodworks all the time that, "I've been following you for three years." I'm like, "[crosstalk 00:22:40], where did you come from?" But that's the thing with health and wellness, it's personal. [crosstalk 00:22:47].
Christine H.: Yeah. People should just be aware that this might take them a little bit longer.
Meg Brunson: Exactly. You need to have the money to be able to invest a month or two before starting to see that return. Again, there's ways to get those costs down, but it's not always as quick and easy. Even when you hire a professional, because marketing is still a game you've got to play and Facebook changes all the time. Having a professional on hand who feels 100% on that platform, it's easier for me to respond to these changes than other people who are trying to juggle 10 million things.
Meg Brunson: But there's still an element of fasting. With Facebook marketing, you should always be testing, always. The testing process is never over because marketing changes every day. Your competition, I hate that word, but-
Kendra: It is what is, where business is.
Meg Brunson: They're trying to change to be ... Everybody wants to be the best, and try unique and different approaches in order to capture the attention of your audience. So you should always, always, always be testing
Christine H.: I agree. That is a good point.
Kendra: It's so true for all of online business, right? I think, I talk to a lot of coaches who they think they can just build this perfect business behind the scenes and then just release it out into the internet world and be like, "There it is." I'm like, "No. That's not how you build a successful business. You have to try a shitload of things; like fail, fail, fail, fail, fail. That didn't work, try again, fail. Keep going, cry a little bit, but get up, keep going."
Kendra: That's what builds a successful business, and it's true for Facebook ads. It's true for everything, right?
Meg Brunson: Yeah. Exactly.
Christine H.: Let's talk a little bit about, you've had so many different clients. I think the budget, everyone has an idea that it's not just a little slot machine where you just throw something in once and you get the jackpot. It's just not how it works. Let's talk a little bit about the challenge in that health sector. I think it might be a little bit different than products or even business coaching.
Christine H.: What is the appearance of that? I just started little bit before that with sleep, you want me to get the band because as soon as it read sleep, the dirty little filthy means, it thinks it's ridiculous facts, and it's no. It's the [inaudible 00:25:15] we sleep is another word, it's just sleeping. But for me, I usually get, immediately the ad is not approved. Then if it is, I see it very, very low relevancy score.
Christine H.: It's like Facebook is putting on the brakes because it's careful. It's like, "Okay, we'll let her play, but we have to be very careful who's going to see it because we have to be afraid of who might complain." Me, it's just like I gave up and I want to get back in the game, listening to you with very softly, just constantly having some lead generation thing to figure it out.
Christine H.: But it's been a very frustrating journey for me. Tell me a little bit about the client experiences that you've had, things that you maybe figured out. Because I really want to have anyone who's out there listening right now to really not have that experience that I did.
Meg Brunson: Sure. I think the first key is having an understanding of why Facebook has those roles to be on [inaudible 00:26:14]. Facebook's number one concern is not with businesses, unfortunately for us as business owners. Their number one concern is with the user experience, so the people that are in your audience. That can be frustrating. But at the end of the day, it's actually [inaudible 00:26:32] for us because it keeps those audiences on the platform so that we can reach them.
Meg Brunson: They've done a lot of research, not only into Facebook ad history over the past however many years, but just marketing in general and to what people respond to, and what people don't respond to. I don't know if you've ... I'm sure everybody's been to a website. Where you scrolls to the bottom and there's images that are so gross, you know what I mean, the ads and the gross images or just like weird things?
Meg Brunson: They don't want that stuff on Facebook. [inaudible 00:27:07], you're [inaudible 00:27:08] and you have to scroll away, and it's-
Kendra: Like the porn shit that you get showed when you try to stream illegal television online, right?
Christine H.: That and hypothetical scenarios.
Kendra: I see all the time. Oh, my gosh.
Meg Brunson: Gosh, I was thinking of those weird [inaudible 00:27:24] videos, that's not my thing at all.
Kendra: Oh, some people would be really into that.
Christine H.: Yeah, no. I get it.
Meg Brunson: Anyhow, stuff like that, they don't want that stuff on the platform. They also don't want anything illegal on the platform or dangerous. You can't [inaudible 00:27:42], this goes into the health sector CBD. CBD is big right now. Anything that at all is derived from the marijuana plant, Facebook does not allow so it does not matter that it is not hallucinogenic. They don't care.
Christine H.: They don't care. It's stuff that-
Meg Brunson: It cannot be on there. I'll tell you that, if that's your health and wellness business, there are ways around it. There are ways to market, lead-ads are a great way. But it's nearly impossible to run Facebook ads for a CBD business. I personally will not take them done for you. Ad management client, I will work with them as a mentorship plan, but I have seen too many accounts get shut down because people just push, push, push the limits and then Facebook is like, "No. Done."
Meg Brunson: That's one area where there's not a lot of wiggle room, and I hate being the person that says no, but I could do probably a whole other episode just on some ways to get around that. Anyhow, so that's one example. But the other biggest things that health and wellness businesses get flagged for, are images. So the images that they choose. Facebook for example, does not want you to zoom in on any body parts.
Meg Brunson: I worked with a dentist and the dentist always had a picture. It always happened to be a blonde, white woman with big beautiful teeth and would zoom in on their big perfect smile, and Facebook would be like, "No, they don't want to show perfection, they don't want-
Christine H.: Got you. If I had a lady on a pillow, it would be like, "No, too much skin and nudity," and like, "I see everyone else half-naked all around, even on Facebook." But yeah, and ads, I find as soon as it detects with this algorithm that this skin show and an urge, that's like, "No."
Meg Brunson: I'll tell you too on the topic of images, you should always be testing more than one image, always. With that, one of my favorite stories is with that dentist. Because like I said, it was always blonde, perfect teeth and she said, "That's what people wanted to see." Well, she was in Miami, which has a huge Hispanic population. I was like, "You need some diversity in your ads."
Meg Brunson: Everybody should have diversity in their ads, but that's a whole other soapbox. You need diversity in your ads. I worked with her to come up with some other images to test, and one of the images we used, actually had nothing to do with teeth. It was three fingers squeezed together. I don't know if you're a girl scout, but it's the little girl scout promise.
Meg Brunson: They had faces drawn on the fingertips and then around the middle, it looks like they have little arms that are hugging them together. Had a solid background, and she's like, "But there's no teeth, what does it have to do with the dentist?" I was like, "We're going to put it in the copy." We used copy that said something like, "No matter what brings you into our office, you are going to leave happy."
Meg Brunson: It was like offering them a free visit or I can't remember what the offer was, now is a long time ago. But that ad outperformed everything and she was like, "But there's no teeth." It doesn't matter now. Did you get the leads, did they convert? Sometimes and everybody's seen the wacky ads, which is an image and you're like, "What does that have to do with the product?"
Meg Brunson: That is somebody just testing out a strategy of getting your attention with a weird image or a cute image, or a funny image, and then selling you something in the copy. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Test out multiple images, don't focus too much on one specific part of the body. Another thing you cannot do, is before and afters, which would be hard for health and wellness people.
Meg Brunson: You're selling like an acne cream and you want to show a face that's at the end on the face, it's clear or without makeup and with makeup, or before weight loss and after weight loss. These are things that you want to show, Facebook does not want that. It also goes off of health and wellness. Sometimes, I believe people can do a professional organizing gets lagged, because they have a messy room in a clean room.
Meg Brunson: That's not really what it's made for, but it's just kind of funny. So, no before and afters. Now if you really want to show a before and after, there are ways around it. You can use a carousel ad, you can show steps. So not just before and after, but like; step one, step two, step three, week one, week two, week three. You can put that in a video.
Meg Brunson: But you still want to be careful because the reason that the rule is there, isn't because they hate health and wellness businesses. It's not because they hate before after comparisons. It's because traditionally, users don't like it. I'm one of those people, I have a lot of health coaches and weight loss coaches, and stuff. I don't want to call out any one specific. They post the before and after pictures in it, it looks [crosstalk 00:32:59].
Christine H.: -different photo, it's been different lining. It's just [inaudible 00:33:03], I can get you seriously. I get it. They're not going to Instagram. You're supposed to getting lot and it just crosses me out, like-
Kendra: Right. I agree. I don't like before and after. I honestly, it pisses me off because it just highlights the body image of weight loss. It's just like a lot of people are striving, especially with women, they're striving to have this perfect body. It's airbrushed, it's not legit and really we should be more concerned about health and celebrating body types of all sorts. But again, that's another soapbox, you've [inaudible 00:33:32]. [crosstalk 00:33:32].
Meg Brunson: I would say that the other big [inaudible 00:33:39] a lot with health and wellness has to do with referring to a person's attributes in the copy. Now-
Christine H.: What [inaudible 00:33:46]? I had to really think about how to run a copy of that. God, it's like you only get a certain set of numbers of words that you can play with. It's like you have your original copy and then it's like, "Okay, actually this, this, this, this, this, this, this, you cannot use." "God, now what can I use?" I'd say. But walk us through [inaudible 00:34:06].
Kendra: Once you figure it out, it's not that hard. But I'd love to hear what you have to say, Meg.
Meg Brunson: Facebook doesn't want to be creepy. There's something creepy about signing on to Facebook. This has happened to me, where I scroll down and it's a shirt that's like Brunson power or something, and Brunson's my last name. I'm like, "How do they know my last name?" Well, it'll be like, and I know how they might be.
Meg Brunson: Or it'll be a shirt about Gemini, and I'm like, "How do they know it's a Gemini?. It's creepy," you know what I mean? They don't want you to be creepy, so they don't want you to post something that makes the user feel like they're being stalked, because that's not a positive experience.
Kendra: They do. But yes, I get it.
Meg Brunson: I'm not saying they don't sneak through, some don't sneak through. You also don't want your user to have that experience, either way they feel. I don't know, ashamed or nervous, or whatever, because you've called out the fact that they have a medical condition or that they [inaudible 00:35:17].
Kendra: Got it.
Meg Brunson: Be careful not to call out. What I typically do is, I look for the words, you and your in my copy. Because not always, but typically when you're using those words, you're within that sentence, you're referring to an attribute that they have. If you say something, like your weight, well, you're now referring to my weight. Whatever you say before or after that word is indicating whether you think I'm unhealthy, whether it's large or small, or whatever. That's an attribute.
Meg Brunson: You need to be saying that, and there's a couple of different ways you can do that. You could take the approach of, my clients typically. Like, "My clients typically benefit as I share." I hate being on the spot, it takes me forever, right?
Christine H.: Yeah. I know it's fine, but I think it's the idea that we have.
Meg Brunson: "My clients typically benefit from better self-esteem and more confidence after working with me in my coaching program," something like that. Now you're not saying, "Hey girl, you got too much weight." You're saying, "My clients typically feel there's transformation, and if that's a transformation that you long for, you should keep reading." I like going that way because it's also tooting your own horn a little bit.
Meg Brunson: You have clients; number one, if you're new. You want to let people know that you've got clients and that they're seeing these transformations. You could also do it generally, people typically, parents typically. New moms often say that [inaudible 00:37:01]. Now you're not saying that, this person often says that, new moms often say that. If that person is a new mom, she'll resonate with that.
Meg Brunson: Instead of saying you or your, trying to say it in more general terms. Also, focusing on what you're teaching, what that process is and that what the results will be. "You're going to lose 30 pounds," no. You're going to learn how to meal-plan effectively. You're going to learn how to build an exercise regimen into your already hectic schedule. You're going to learn these things.
Meg Brunson: Don't talk about what their results are going to be, because that's another area that crosses over from attributes into those claims. Unrealistic claims-
Christine H.: All right. Yeah.
Meg Brunson: But those are other red flags that we see a lot with health and wellness.
Kendra: Yeah. Another way I've gotten around it is that actually speaking about my own experience. By using I, instead of you and your. I've definitely done that talk in general terms, "Women often feel this way, blah, blah, blah." But I've also just spoken to my own experience in a lot, and that seems to get approved as well. But you're right. As you use your, or you or your, it's unapproved. It's like you just have to stay away from those words.
Meg Brunson: It's not those words that are the flag though, it's important to know that it's the context that those words are used in. Every once in a while, you can use them as long as you don't have the other words.
Christine H.: Yeah. Things that are typical health speak, so just to say.
Meg Brunson: Correct.
Kendra: I've had a few ads get disapproved, but when I look through them, I'm like, "No, I'm so sure I'm following all the guidelines," and you can actually request to review. Oftentimes when I do that, it'll get approved immediately. I think you requested a manual review or something like that to actually look at it and be like, "Oh no, you're good." Is that something that you can also recommend that people do if they're super sure?"
Meg Brunson: Definitely. I can give you the link directly to Facebook's policies, their ad policies. I know sometimes Facebook has so many links. But I'm happy to send that if you're going to put it in the show notes, and I would definitely review that. Facebook typically links to it and the disapproval box too, but I would go through.
Meg Brunson: Make sure you're really clear on that because they're only going to let you appeal it once and the more you appeal it, the more drama it is. But if you're positive, go ahead and do that appeal process. They typically get back to you in 24 to 48 hours. For that reason too, I'm going to say, I always try to plan my ads in advance. Try to schedule your ad two or three days in advance.
Meg Brunson: We're recording this on a Thursday. This would be a great day to schedule your ads so that you want running on Monday. Because if tomorrow they get denied, you can appeal them. Now the weekend can be a hit or miss, but hopefully they'll get approved by Monday and you're not out days. There's nothing more frustrating, and this has happened to me too.
Meg Brunson: Because I'm not a great planner for my own business. I'm so focused on my client's business and I'm like, "Oh shoot, I was supposed to get an ad up and running yesterday." I will get it up and running today, and I might have an issue with a disapproval that just needs to be appealed, because it happens even to the best of us. Then I'm two days behind them where I wanted my ads to be, and that can be stressful.
Meg Brunson: Try to plan ahead, so you'll be giving yourself much padding that the ads will get approved and then you don't have to worry about that.
Christine H.: I love that. Yeah, I think that-
Kendra: Just a question. When you schedule an ad, do they review it well, it's waiting to be scheduled? Okay, I just wanted to confirm [inaudible 00:40:52].
Meg Brunson: Yes. As soon as you hit publish, if you've got the ad scheduled to run in a week or whatever, you hit publish. It goes into the review process, it will get approved and then it'll say scheduled. It'll either say in review, it's still a review; scheduled, if it's been approved but it's waiting. Then it'll be approved [inaudible 00:41:13], running.
Christine H.: That's a really good tip. Yeah, I did. I already feel that. I love it. The Facebook ads is creepy in a way that you can do so many things that you can dive in more many ways. I know that it's different from Europe and the US because ours is always a bit stricter, so we don't have access to as many little tweaks.
Christine H.: Then at the same time, I've also had the more kind of criteria, you feed it, the higher your budget. Is that correct? The more you tell it to dial in and to exactly a certain person, the more you pay?
Meg Brunson: I don't think that, that would be correct. Because, it's going to depend upon how relevant your audience is. If you dial in, but you're dialing into the right people and they're responding, the costs that you're paying depends upon how relevant your ad is to your audience. If your audience is responding favorably and going through, and completing the action you want them to complete, then you're going to spend less money to get those actions.
Meg Brunson: It all comes back to the user experience. If people are responding to your ad, say positively, then Facebook is saying, "This is a good ad. We can serve people this ad and they're not going to get annoyed or frustrated, or upset." Favorable ways people can respond is, by number one, doing the thing. Whatever you want them to do, submitting a lead, reacting; so giving a thumbs up or a heart, or whatever, commenting, sharing.
Meg Brunson: All of that stuff is positive feedback. Now there's negative feedback. Negative feedback will be; you've got a little triangle and you hide the ad when you report that ad as offensive. It takes a little more effort to do that, but people do it. I've done it. It happens and Facebook will take note of that data, and then you're going to spend more money.
Meg Brunson: Because, Facebook is recognizing that your ad is ... It's banning you for some reason. That's the same reason. You might know, there used to be a rule, a text rule that you couldn't have more than 20% text on your images. Then last year, they got rid of that rule, but it was just, not really get rid of it because they just renamed it and reworked it. It's the same basic concept.
Meg Brunson: The more texts you have on the image, traditionally, the less reach you'll get, the higher your cost will be. However, that's really just a warning based on historical data. In real life application, I've had clients who images with text performed better than images without text, and we'd run those. It's one of those, you have to be testing it, you have to understand the rules, you have to know why they're there and then you have to keep that in mind.
Meg Brunson: Don't just put texts on an ad to make ... To put text down on the ad, has to be something that speaks to your user and improves their user experience, so that you'll get more reach. What we're talking about audiences a little bit, one thing I don't want to skip over either because it's so important. I usually talk about it first, but things take their own place sometimes, is the Facebook pixel.
Meg Brunson: I feel like that's one of the most often missed elements, especially from newbies. If you've been around the block a while, you've heard about the pixel and you probably have it installed. If you haven't heard about it, all it is, it's a little snippet of HTML coding that you copy from ads manager and you paste onto your website.
Meg Brunson: It sounds intimidating if you're not a developer, which most of us are not. I wasn't when I started, but it's not really that scary. Facebook has directions that walk you through it. If you're using Shopify, WordPress, Wix, literally just about any-
Christine H.: -videos, tutorials?
Meg Brunson: Yeah. I've got a ton of resources on that too, but Facebook has a ton. Whatever platform you use, [inaudible 00:45:23], and lets you track audiences or people who come to your website, so you can re-market to them later. It allows you to optimize your ads for conversions, so that's any action, any stuff or more action that happens on your website. Bringing them to page A, but wanting them to go to page B. That's a conversion, you could optimize your ads for that.
Meg Brunson: The third thing it does is, it unlocks data and analytics. You can use Facebook Analytics, just like Google Analytics. It's free, it's organic. You can also leverage it when you're running ads. I always caution people, one of the biggest complaints I get is that Facebook Analytics doesn't work. It's not the same as Google Analytics.
Meg Brunson: Therefore, it is wrong and it's not true. Is it okay, can I break down the difference?
Meg Brunson: Okay. Google Analytics tracks based on cookies, and most people are vaguely familiar with this process. It's like they leave a little trail of cookies wherever you go, so Google can see where were you right before you came to this website. It's last click attribution. Those are the big fancy words, and that's what Google's done. That's how they track everything, that's how they report things.
Meg Brunson: But Facebook is a little more fancy and they're tracking based on where you're signed on Facebook. You're signed down on your cell phone and your computer, maybe a desktop at work, maybe a laptop, maybe an iPad or who knows? Most people are signed to Facebook from multiple devices. Because of that, Facebook can track across all those devices and it can track up to 28 days.
Meg Brunson: Google can track the last click, what happened immediately the moment before you went somewhere. Facebook can track up to 28 days. The example I always use is that, if I'm in line at the grocery store, I've got my kids with me and we're checking out at Walmart or wherever. I see an ad for the newest converse shoes, which are my like. Yeah, I'm buying those converse shoes, I have so many.
Meg Brunson: They're the newest print, I need to have them. But I'm in line, it's almost time to pay and my kids are throwing candy bars, and so I just can't. I close out of the website, get my kids home and I forget about it for two days. That's mom life happens. Three days later, I sign in, I Google converse so I can get back to their website. I go find my shoes, I buy them.
Meg Brunson: When you go to check the analytics, Google's going to say, "Came from a Google search. She Googled converse and bought the shoes." But Facebook is going to say, "She [inaudible 00:47:57] certain ad, she clicked on that ad on her phone. Three days later, she bought the shoes on desktop." Now if you were just looking at one, you want to have the full story.
Meg Brunson: If you were just looking at Google, you'd say, "My Facebook ads aren't working." But if you're looking at both, you're going to say, "This doesn't match." But once you understand how they track, you can nearly piece it together to figure out the actual story and see that the Facebook ads are contributing to your success.
Christine H.: Yeah. It's just a different process of thinking. I think that's might be also what I see with my traction because 90% of my traffic is organic. In ways that I'm not running any ads, but they're coming from Google. But now I only know that they've searched for it, like most of them are. But I think it's interesting because I don't know if they've heard it on a podcast before, maybe or they read a blog post somewhere where it was mentioned.
Christine H.: This is a really, really interesting thing for me to do some research on, to see where are they coming from. Are they coming from Pinterest, are they coming from ... Then just out of sight, out of mind, and then they Googled it. This is really, really interesting.
Meg Brunson: Facebook Analytics is cool because you can set up, you can see who's connected to your Facebook page and who visits your website, to see how much traffic. How many of your Facebook page-fans are actually visiting your website, and how many of your website visitors are actually page-fans. It's a lot of interesting information. You can get lost in the data there, but that pixel is important.
Meg Brunson: Even if you're not running ads right now, you need to get that pixel installed so that you can elaborate it in those ways and the pixel retains data for six months. Here we are, when we're recording this, it's November. You're like, "I'm not ready yet. It's too late, it's almost Christmas, I'm still too new. Whatever your excuses are, and that's fine."
Meg Brunson: In May, you're six months down the road, you started making money or whatever. The situation has changed and you're like, "We should start advertising to get ready for next year holiday season." Well now you've got six months of data where you can create an audience. There's some people who visited your website, a lookalike audience.
Meg Brunson: You can really jump into advanced advertising quicker because you've done this first initial step of getting that pixel installed, to prepare you for when you're ready to dive deep.
Christine H.: That's an amazing tip. I think everyone should go in and then [inaudible 00:50:24] that. This has been times, my head is spinning. I can imagine that people who are just starting out, I was just like, "Okay, I need to digest all of this, and then I'm going to go and implement." I think this is amazing. You mentioned that you've had a couple of resources. Tell us a bit where people can find you.
Christine H.: Then if we have some of our star players, like people who joined our mastermind, for example, we still have one [inaudible 00:50:47]. Well, I wouldn't ask for the ad. But obviously, they would have a budget, so they're going to make a ton of money then, how can they find out about you?
Meg Brunson: well, the number one resource I'd love to direct people to is, I have a quiz. I've taken a lot of pride in this little quiz because I consider it to be quite fun. I am a huge music fan and we are traveling full time, and we do a lot of dance parties on the car and whatnot. I have a quiz that will not only tell you what you can do to up-level your Facebook marketing right now. But it will assign you a theme song based on where you are, so that you can start planning a little dance party to rock out to it.
Meg Brunson: You might end up getting some journey or some [Pintrest 00:51:26] Taylor Swift or Usher, depending upon what your score is. You'll get a fun song to dance to. Plus, you're going to find out exactly what you need to do based on your business right now. That link is at megbrunson.com/quiz. I think, did I give you a URL?
Christine H.: Yeah, you did. It's going to be [crosstalk 00:51:47].
Kendra: -show notes for everyone to-
Meg Brunson: Okay.
Kendra: -your marketing on.
Meg Brunson: I just realized that, I'm sorry. Go ahead and use that link. Then you can also just go to megbrunson.com to just find more information about me. I'm on Facebook, obviously, Instagram, not as much on YouTube but I'm trying. If you are interested in my travel stuff too, it's @familyroadventures on Instagram. Because I know a lot of people just aren't interested by that whole lifestyle.
Christine H.: Perfect. Awesome. So you work with clients in terms of being a Facebook ads manager?
Meg Brunson: Yeah. I have some clients that I run their ads for them, they're hands-off and I just do all the work. I've got some clients who are in a mentorship program, so they want to learn the ropes. I think it's really important that everybody has a basic understanding of the ads before they outsource it. I've seen too many people working at Facebook especially, who are spending big bucks on agencies who do not have their best interests in mind.
Meg Brunson: I love for people to have at least that basic information. Even if we're not going to work together, I can just give you the information to make sure you're not getting screwed over. Then I have some clients who are taking, I have a course and I've got a variety of things for do-it-yourself. Who maybe aren't quite at that level of outsourcing or burning out or one-on-one mentor.
Christine H.: Well, definitely everyone should check that out because I know we have a lot of viewers or listeners, whatever, who are really interested in running Facebook ads and we don't want you to get screwed. Go, follow Meg and get her info so that you can [inaudible 00:53:28] up for success. Meg, we really, really appreciate you coming out with us today. That was really, really enlightening.
Christine H.: I think our audience members really appreciate it as we do. To everyone listening, thank you so much. We will see you again in one week for our business bomb series, where we'll give you a super juicy tip and then your head explodes because it's that fucking juicy. All right guys, take care and we'll talk to you in a week. Bye.
Linkedin isn’t just for finding a job and post your resume. As Scott Aaron shares in our newest episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast, Linkedin is a place to build human connection. Whaaat? How can you build human connection over the computer?
As we have shouted from the rooftops in many episodes – you have to engage with people on any of the platforms you are using. You can’t expect to post an Instagram picture and get clients. You can’t write one article and expect to make 6 figures from it. The same goes from Linkedin – if you know how to use it (which Scott provides some key tips in this episode on how to do that) you can build a network of your ideal client and grow your network of badass health coaches.
If you’re intimiated by Linkedin, like Christine was (before this episode!) - fear not. Scott has some simple yet impact tips to create an amazing profile and connect with likeminded folks. In this episode we discuss:
- 3 things every health coach needs to do in their business (and how Linkedin helps with that)
- Linkedin content and the magic formula (hello Linkedin video!)
- 4 key tips to succeeding on LinkedIn
- statistics on Linkedin in comparison to Facebook & Instagram
- the dreadful Linkedin automated message & how to make it more authentic
As a best selling author and speaker, Scott is passionate about helping fellow entrepreneurs achieve success while building their own network organically and without complicated and costly marketing tactics. His program has helped thousands of entrepreneurs and individuals experience explosive growth following his program Linkedin Accelerator. People-focused and result driven, Scott's strategic approach to teaching others how to create wealth online and organic traffic is the game changer when it comes to competing in a saturated digital world.
Connect with Scott Aaron:
Get Scott’s freebie, How to Optimize Your Linkedin Profile: https://networkacademy.kartra.com/page/OptimizeLinkedin
Connect with us on social:
Christine H.: Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this brand new episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. We are so excited to be talking to you, and today, there's three of us. So, we have the as always adorable, super sexy and fun, and super smart, Kendra Perry, who's here like whoa! Check out YouTube, it was her winning pose, for the win.
Christine H.: Then we have an amazing guest today who is going to talk about a topic that I'm just nuts about. So we're going to talk more about that in a second. Suspense, if you're on watching video, which you should because we have [inaudible 00:00:37]. And then you've got humble me, myself, Christine Hansen, and we are going to really blow your mind this week as we always do.
Christine H.: But before we're going to start off, we want to say a super, super huge thank you, because we've got a review and you know when that happens, our aura lights up with love and fabulous glowness. So, Kendra, what have we been told this week and this is like just a massage for my soul really. So-
Kendra Perry: Yeah, this is a massage for my ego for sure. So we have a five-star review from Chasing Vitality from the UK. So thank you to all our international listeners. The title is Great Business Podcast. "Love these two, down to earth, actionable great content. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. It's helping me loads."
Kendra Perry: So we're so glad it is helping you Chasing Vitality. And now, we give you a virtual hug for the five-star review.
Christine H.: Kendra is a huge hugger. I'm like, "Yay, this is great!"
Kendra Perry: I know. I hug everyone.
Christine H.: I know. And I was just like, "Whoa!" Maybe that's my European thing. I don't know.
Kendra Perry: Maybe.
Christine H.: But anyway, let me introduce our guest today, and you should switch on your audio. We don't have a lot of men on our podcast so please do tune in.
Kendra Perry: It's exciting.
Christine H.: Very exciting. So as a best-selling author and speaker, Scott is passionate about how big fellow entrepreneurs achieve success, which we always like obviously. Why building their own network organically ... Oh, like that. Does that mean free? We have to check out, and without complicated and costly marketing tactics. I do like the sound of that too.
Christine H.: His program has helped thousands of entrepreneurs and individual experienced explosive growth following his program LinkedIn Accelerator. I have to say I'm getting a bit turn on with this. People-focused and result-driven, Scott's strategic approach to teaching others how to create wealth online and organic traffic is the game changer when it comes to competing in this saturated digital world.
Christine H.: Whoa, promising much? Okay. We're going to milk you like there's no tomorrow. All right, so Kendra and I are both like linked in with one of the topics that we really want you to talk about, so Kendra has her own YouTube and Instagram with knowledge and I dab a little bit in everything. I did really dived into LinkedIn a year ago, and I have to say that it was very lucrative in terms of being very focused knowing what you want and I have to say maybe the most surprising aspect for me that was people are actually friendly.
Christine H.: I don't know, I was so intimidated by LinkedIn. For me, LinkedIn was just kind of a room of suits and assholes really that I didn't really want to have anything to do with, and getting to know the people and just diving in there a little bit, people were really, really open and friendly and helpful and yeah, I also find it's a little bit clicky.
Christine H.: So there's lots of things that I want to dive into, but Scott, first of all, tell us a little bit how you actually got into this social media platform. Was it by accident? Was it very strategic? Tell us a little bit about this.
Scott Aaron: So, it was ... Well, first of all, thank you guys for having me on here. It's an honor and a pleasure. So going back to what you said earlier, yes, you can milk me for whatever you want and we can go as deep as you need to.
Christine H.: Let's not take this out of context, people.
Scott Aaron: Yes, I might. I was doing a keynote a couple of weeks ago, and I said something along the lines of that. Someone said, that's what she said. And I completely set myself up for that. Anyway, enough with the Michael Scott quotes. So everything that has happened with my speaking, with my best-selling book and everything with LinkedIn was completely by accident, but obviously on purpose.
Scott Aaron: So before we kind of dive into that, people need to know exactly how I got to where I am today and it actually transpired from something that happened to me 22 years ago. And I talked about these brain tattoo moments that we have in our life and I'm going to give you the very short version of this because I do 60-minute keynotes on just my story.
Scott Aaron: But basically, the long and the short of it is when I was 18 years old, I'm a fourth generation entrepreneur. My father owned a couple of businesses and he had left his one business to work for someone else and that ended up being one of the worst decisions that he ever made because he got actually caught up in a $9.5 million dollar insurance fraud case which landed him in federal prison for two and a half years.
Scott Aaron: And this was my introduction to entrepreneurship because in the process of him getting sentenced and going away to prison, he had bought a failing fitness club in downtown Philadelphia that was turned over to me when I was 19. So I was-
Kendra Perry: Great gift.
Scott Aaron: Yes, here. Here it is. So that was my introduction into entrepreneurship but I was always a people person and this is back in 1998 before really the internet was what it is today. There was no social media so everything was grass-roots connecting with other people. And I became a certified sports nutritionist, personal trainer, group fitness instructor.
Scott Aaron: So everything that I did in the fitness industry was revolved around helping people and getting people results. So the one gym turned into two gyms when my father came back and we ended up selling both of them in 2003 for a million dollars. So I became a millionaire at 24. In 2004, we opened up our third and final gym which ended up getting put into my name because my parents' credit was bottomed out, so everything had to get financed by me, which I didn't really know what that meant at 25 years old.
Scott Aaron: But two and a half years later, in around 2007, 2008, I found myself in $1.5 million of liability debt. So I had another hole to crawl out of. I grew a very successful personal training practice and then between 2008 and 2014, I was married and divorced twice. And so that was a big change for me because I really had to learn emotional maturity, but I was beating myself up a lot. But it also left me with one of the greatest gifts which is my now seven-year-old beautiful little boy Taylor. So becoming a dad was one of the greatest accomplishments that I've ever accomplished.
Scott Aaron: In 2013, a year before my second divorce, I found network marketing and I'm sure some of the listeners on here know about it. And I've always been psychologically unemployable from day one so I never had [crosstalk 00:07:49] I've never worked for anyone. So I didn't think this was a pyramid or a Ponzi but I'm always networking. I'm always making recommendations. I was sending people to vitamin shop and GNC and all of these places and I said, "Fuck this." I'm like, "Instead of sending them there, I could be the one supplying them what they need."
Scott Aaron: So I grew this business within two years to match my income as a personal trainer. And after I exited my second marriage, I had to reinvent myself again but in 2015, I made a pivot. I basically found out two things. Number one, I found out through selling a property that I owned in downtown Philadelphia that my house that I sold was being used as collateral for the gym's equipment.
Scott Aaron: So when I went to go sell the property, there was about $35,000 worth of equity. Instead of getting 35K, I got $837 because the balance of the lease would take off by my house. So then I had to have a conversation with my father. I sat him in my office and I said, "Listen, this partnership is not working anymore. I'm going to be taking over this gym myself. You're going to have to go find somewhere else to train," and I can tell you that that was probably the best decision for both of us. And if he was on here with me, he would say the same thing because it allowed us to get back to father and son again.
Scott Aaron: We were never meant to be business partners. We were always meant to be father and son. He's an amazing father, an amazing grandfather and me going on this road myself was the best decision. There was one last thing that happened and it kind of curtailed into LinkedIn. So I was looking through some paperwork because now I was suspicious, and I found one document that changed everything. And this was the document for the lease of my gym.
Scott Aaron: And it said, "Guarantor," and it had my signature above it. And for those that don't know what that means, if you're the guarantor of the lease and that business goes under, if you violate the lease, any money that is owed was going to get turned over to me personally, which at that point was around $450,000. And I was at my wit's end. That was kind of like the cherry on top.
Scott Aaron: So, around the same time, I saw social media changed. I saw Facebook and Instagram going down these rabbit holes and people now had to pay a shit ton of money for Facebook ads. All I saw was sports bras and yoga pants on Instagram. Everybody was just selling their stuff and their bodies and pretty selfies and all of these stuff that I'm like, "This is removing me from my core foundation which is connecting with human beings."
Scott Aaron: So I jumped on to LinkedIn, had no clue how to use it. I had a profile but that was about it, but I remember something that my first mentor said to me. And she said to me, she goes, "You have to wake up each day, look yourself in the mirror and you need to ask yourself, how am I going to connect with me today?"
Scott Aaron: And it clicked. And I said, "That's it. If I'm going to be on a business platform, I need to look for the business mirror image of myself," which at that time was a personal trainer, sports nutritionist and gym owner. So I started building this network of people that were just like me and I started setting up phone call after phone call and I was closing people into my businesses and I was making money. And I said, "Shit, I think I had something here."
Scott Aaron: So I reached out to a friend of mine who was also an entrepreneur and I said, "Joey, listen. You got to get on LinkedIn." And I said, "Here, I want you to do these few things," that I knew at that time because it was still new to me four years ago, and I said, "Text me in a week and let me know what happens." A week later, he texted me. He said, "Call me." I did, I said, "What's up?" And he goes, "Dude, whatever you're doing, it really works." He goes, "I have 14 appointments booked this week."
Scott Aaron: And the cure all to feeling stuck is being in action and for any entrepreneur, any business owner, if there's nothing written down in your appointment book, it's the scariest place that you can be and most people that I was speaking to didn't have enough people talking to.
Scott Aaron: So anyway, I went on a podcast about four years ago, and it was a live dial podcast. So it was a live show where people could call in but it was also recorded. And I was going over the statistics of LinkedIn. I always tell people facts are friendly. It was what my mom says to me until to this day. And I was just reporting the facts.
Christine H.: I'm a huge denial person, so but yeah like [inaudible 00:12:27].
Scott Aaron: That's okay. I hopped off this call. I hopped onto Facebook, and I had nine inboxes from people wanting to hire me. For what I didn't know, I didn't have anything that they could pay for. But they wanted to learn how to use LinkedIn, so I got into action. I created some videos, created a website and I started my coaching practice on what worked for me now teaching others.
Scott Aaron: So at the same time, I was sitting in my attorney's office and I was going over what I needed to do at this gym because I was losing about $3,000 a month. I had now a coaching practice that was on the rise. I had the successful network marketing business. I was just at my wit's end and I had this monkey sitting on my back and it was this gym. It was my father's dream, not mine.
Scott Aaron: So I was sitting with him and he said, "Listen, you got two choices. You can continue to have your two businesses, fund your business that is failing or you can file for personal bankruptcy." And I was like, "Okay." And I remember sitting there and I remember thinking to myself, I wasn't feeling and thinking my life is over. I was thinking, "Holy shit, my life is about to begin. This is my opportunity to wipe the slate clean and really start doing what I wanted to do."
Scott Aaron: So he said, "On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being slam dunk, you got to do this. 0 being do not do this, keep going." He goes, "You're a 9.5." So on July 1st of 2016 just about three and a half years ago, I filed for personal bankruptcy. On July 31st, I closed my gym. I wrote a handwritten letter to my members, stuck it on the door, turned off the lights, locked the door and I never came back."
Scott Aaron: So on August 1st of 2016, I shared with people that that is when I was truly reborn and I'm living life on my own terms now and my life has never been the same. And it's because I never thought that it was going to be easy because those that take the easy road live a hard life but those that take the hard road will live an easy life.
Scott Aaron: And I remember someone asking me, they said, "What is your super power?" And I said, "It's resiliency." No matter what shit has been thrown my way, I have always figured out a way, not around it, through it so I can learn from that and become even better on the other side. And what I realized with LinkedIn, it was the perfect place for me because I'm all about human connection. I'm all about connecting with other people because I don't care what opt-ins you have. I don't care what lead magnets or funnels that you have or email sequence. Here's the deal.
Scott Aaron: There's one aspect of life and business that you can't automate and that's human connection, and that's what I'm best at. So if you're looking to connect with people and sell them, you have to build that know, like and trust factor first before you even get the right to try to offer someone a product or a service that you have for them. And that's what I'm best at and that's what I teach now building that network, building that relationship and that trust and the connection between two people where you can solve a problem or a need that they are in need or wanting.
Scott Aaron: And it's a very simple system. It's the best platform honestly. If people are still blind to it, if you are still trying to convince yourself that Facebook and Instagram are going to turn back the hands of time and work like the way that they did in 2013 to 2015, you're taking crazy pills. It's time to get with the times, not reinvent yourself but add something to your arsenal of information and tools.
Scott Aaron: You have to be a general contractor of social media. You have to have multiple tools in your tool belt and if LinkedIn is not one of them, you are leaving hundreds of thousands of dollars on the table that you could be collecting.
Kendra Perry: Oh, my good. I love this so much, because you're like preaching to the choir. I mean I talked about this all the time. I think like it's this connection. People are like, "Well, I need to run ads to my course." And I'm like, "Well, that's not going to sell. People need to get to know you first." I mean, I talked about this so much and I love that this conversation is going here because I didn't expect it.
Kendra Perry: I mean, it's true. Facebook is barely a platform you can connect with people on unless you're doing groups. Instagram, you can still do it on it, but you need to be doing stories. You need to be doing lives. You need to be connecting that way, but I haven't really thought about LinkedIn as a connection platform although I actually do use it to connect. So can you tell us a little bit more about like why, like convince health coaches because our audience, they're solopreneurs, they're health coaches, why should they get on LinkedIn?
Christine H.: Especially I think because it's so intimidating, I guess.
Kendra Perry: It is intimidating.
Christine H.: Because I think a lot of people ... It's not actually once you're there. But I think a lot of people perceived it as a corporate platform, and it's the way it markets itself.
Scott Aaron: Let me say this. It's only intimidating because you don't know how to use it.
Kendra Perry: I agree. I totally agree.
Scott Aaron: So, Christine, you can ask anyone, Facebook was intimidating to all of us when we first started using it. Instagram was intimidating to all of us when we first started using it but I tell people all the time what was once uncomfortable becomes comfortable when you start utilizing it.
Scott Aaron: So it's only an unknown and it's only uncomfortable for people that just aren't taking the time to get to know it. Now, Kendra, back to your original question, I don't try to convince anyone. So I don't convince anyone they should use LinkedIn. I know they should be using LinkedIn. So this is the know, it's not the convince and here's why.
Scott Aaron: There's three things that every single coach, I don't care if you're a health coach, a business coach, whatever it is. There are three things that you need to look at. Number one, demographics. You need to know where your people are hanging out, the age of the people that you're looking to connect with. Number two, the size of the networking that you can grow. Gary Vaynerchuk says it best. He says, "Your network is a direct correlation to your net worth."
Kendra Perry: I love it.
Scott Aaron: So if you have a small network, you have small net worth. If you have a large network, you have a large net worth. And number three is the money mindset of the people that are hanging on that platform. People with broke thoughts will not invest in something that you offer.
Scott Aaron: So when you combine those three aspects and you look at the demographics of Instagram and Facebook which are the same because Zuckerberg owns them both and you look at the demographics of LinkedIn which is owned by Microsoft, which is a technology and cybersecurity company, it's clear as day.
Scott Aaron: So the most recent statistics have showed that the average age combined with Facebook and Instagram is 18 to 29 years old. So it's more of the millennials. LinkedIn is 30 to 55 years old. So depending upon where your target market is, if it's busy moms, corporate people, wherever it is, you're going to know where they're hanging out now.
Scott Aaron: Now the size of the network is really key. Facebook you're only allowed 5,000 "friends" and basically the follow feature kicks in or you start a business page and basically you're paying for people I don't believe paying for friends or paying for anything. I don't pay for connection. People are out there. You should connect with them on an organic basis.
Scott Aaron: Instagram, even though you can grow a ridiculous network has the highest rate of fake accounts to real accounts across social media. Actually, there was a recent study that was done that Instagram is closing close to 2 million accounts every 30 days that are fake accounts. So that's also something that people need to know. On LinkedIn, you're allowed 30,000 organic, unpaid, free connections.
Scott Aaron: In three and a half years, I grew my network from 500 to nearly 27,000 in three and a half years organically. So when you have the ability to curate and create a network that is the mirror image of you, the ideal customer, the ideal client, the ideal avatar, you don't have to sell to them because now you're building relationship and rapport with people that you have commonalities with, so natural progression is the know, like and trust factor takes place. You'll be closing more sales.
Scott Aaron: But also, it's money mindset. The average income of those that spend time on Facebook and Instagram is $30,000 a year or less, which means they're just getting by. The average income of someone on LinkedIn is $100,000 a year or more. So that's also something very, very important to take into consideration, three and a half times more. But here's the other thing, I have a global coaching practice. I have clients in over 12 countries, but I wasn't able to grow my coaching practice to where it is now if it wasn't for LinkedIn because it's the only social media platform that you can search and connect for your ideal customer or client by city, by state, by country, by province.
Scott Aaron: Anywhere in the world, if there's something that's ideal for you. You go into the search bar and you can search and connect with those individuals. So when I talk about a game-changing platform that you don't have to spend any dollar off, I don't pay for premium. I don't pay for sales navigator. I don't pay for recruiter. I don't pay for human connection. I create human connection and that's what everyone can be doing on LinkedIn.
Kendra Perry: Very cool. And so I love that. You've definitely given me a few things to think about. And I'm just wondering if we can go back to kind of the basics here's for those of our listeners who are totally unfamiliar with LinkedIn or what that actually looks like, what types of content are people posting there, is there a fee, like is there direct messaging, can you go live. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
Scott Aaron: I'll handle those one at a time because I have an answer for all of those. And I-
Kendra Perry: I expected that.
Scott Aaron: And I like questions because questions lead to answers and that's something big on LinkedIn. You always, no matter what you're doing on there. So to work backwards as far as your content question, LinkedIn Live is in the beta test phase right now. You can apply to be on it. I filled out an application already, so I'm on the wait list. And basically, they're allowing certain people to beta test it, so it hasn't gone global yet.
Scott Aaron: Now, there is LinkedIn video. You can record yourself on a Zoom, upload a video to the platform up to 10 minutes long. Or you can just use the mobile device. I always do. The great thing about LinkedIn is that there is a repurposing factor. So basically, I use my phone to record my LinkedIn videos, which automatically saves to my camera roll, which I then have that video message, which I can upload onto my IGTV or I can also upload onto my regular Instagram feed as a video, which is great because now I'm working smarter, not harder.
Scott Aaron: The idea with LinkedIn is to produce one piece of content a day. There is no story feature. You don't have to post 18,000 times a day like Facebook. It's one piece of content a day and it comes in three forms, either a post, a video or an article. And all can be done from the PC. Posts and videos are also accessible from the mobile device. You cannot do articles from the mobile device but the content that people are looking for on LinkedIn right now are how-to's, tips, motivation and inspiration. No selling, no offering, no product pictures or before and after's or whatever shit you're selling. You have to sell less and you have to connect more.
Scott Aaron: Now, the magic formula for a good piece of content on LinkedIn, three things. Number one, four to six lines of your own content that relate to what you're either speaking on in a video or posting about in a quote title. Number two is hashtags. Much like Instagram, LinkedIn now has a hashtag feature that people can follow hashtags and you are actually notified if you get enough engagement, you will have a trending hashtag on LinkedIn. I have a trending post at least once a week at this point and that allows people to find you easier much like you would use on Instagram.
Scott Aaron: And the third part is a call to action. So you want to hear from your audience. You don't just want to just put some shit out there and say, "I hope they engage." Ask them to engage. What are your thoughts on this video? What are your thoughts on this content? What are your thoughts on how fear paralyzes you? Leave your comment below. So, engage with them. You want to hear from them. You want to provide information, get feedback. Use that feedback for more content to come later. So, one piece of content, that's the basic thing.
Scott Aaron: Now, as far as LinkedIn goes, there's four key aspects to it. Number one is your profile. So, Microsoft embedded search engine optimization on your profile. If you want to become more visible, you have to have your profile filled out from top to bottom. If someone wants to go to my website, this is not a plug, scottaaron.net, I had a free infographic tab that you can click on and basically, it shows you the layout of how to optimize your profile so you are more seen and I've had clients actually change their profile and people now use this search engine on LinkedIn like they would Google or like they would Yahoo. They're searching for business coaches.
Scott Aaron: So if you don't have business coach listed on your profile, how the hell were people supposed to find you? So number one is making sure that your profile is filled out from top to bottom.
Scott Aaron: Number two is actually searching and connecting for your avatar. So you need to define who that person is. What industry are they a part of? What is their job title? How much money do they make? What is their profession? So searching and connecting for those individuals.
Scott Aaron: Now, to go a little bit deeper with that when you send connections to LinkedIn, LinkedIn will ask you, "Do you want to send a note? People are more likely to accept if you add a note to this connection." It's bullshit. There was a third party that did a study and they sent a hundred connections with a message and without. The connection rate was exactly the same. Work smarter, not harder to send the connections.
Scott Aaron: Now, the third piece is messaging. And this is where people get really lost. I mean, Christine, you said you spent some time on there. Kendra, I don't know if you have yet but if you start, people send you these shitty, wonkolog messages-
Kendra Perry: Oh, I've got them.
Scott Aaron: Literally, I showed my fiancé the other day. I said, "Nancy, you got to look at this message." And I was scrolling and it literally took me three minutes to scroll through the whole message. This guy sent me 17 paragraphs of verbal vomit that I was not going to read.
Kendra Perry: I've got very interesting marriage proposals. I could be a princess in Saudi Arabia by now.
Scott Aaron: Listen, everything is possible. You never know. I break it down like this. There's three key formulas to a very, very good messaging. It's all about genuine authenticity and not selling. So number one, state the person's name. "Hey, Kendra, great to connect with you." That's it, that's number one.
Scott Aaron: Number two, in the body of the message, state why you're connecting with them without asking for shit, without trying to sell them anything. "I saw that we have a shared background in health and wellness, would love to hear more about it and share a little bit about what I do." There's your body.
Scott Aaron: Then you finish with a CTA, a call to action. So I'm all about call to actions because questions lead to answers. You have to A-S-K to G-E-T. You have to ask to get. So, I would then say, "Do you have any time this week or next week to hop on a call to learn how we can best support each other here on LinkedIn?" State their name, reason for reaching out and then a call to action.
Scott Aaron: And then fourth aspect is just what I went over, content. When you curate the right network, so if you know who your target market is, you start connecting with those individuals and then you start posting on a consistent basis once a day the three ways that I already mentioned, now, you're speaking directly to that network. It is waiting for your content and they are just gobbling it up.
Scott Aaron: So everything that I put out on LinkedIn is speaking to the end user in mind. The mistake that a lot of people make is they post shit that they want to post. But when you start thinking about what does my end user want to know. If I was my end user, what would I respond to most? What would I engage with? What would I would want to give feedback on?
Scott Aaron: So if you post with the end user in mind, you will have the greatest amount of organic engagement you could ever imagine and right now, as you guys are listening to this podcast or watching this podcast, LinkedIn is going through a Facebook 2012 moment. Right now, engagement has never been higher and organic reach is the highest on any social media platform that is out there today. And if you follow those four core principles without doing anything with me, you will start to see results.
Kendra Perry: All right, we need to get the podcast on LinkedIn, Christine.
Christine H.: Yeah. I also want to say it's all true but don't underestimate the work though because I find just posting is not enough and that's something where I lost track at some point. You have to engage with people too, like it's really ... I find people are very open to help. It's very easy to ask for help and I had super success in speaking and getting speaking gigs and all kinds of connection really quick. People don't bullshit around. They don't have time, it's like [inaudible 00:31:50].
Christine H.: But I also find that you can easily get lost because there's also lot of "you need to connect with these people", "you have to show that you engage" and all that types. So calculate that in because it's really ... Yes, you can take but it's really also that giving thing. And that's where I go a little bit, not pissed off, but it's just like a lost attention because I found at the time and I think it has changed again. That was a year ago. You had all these pods going nuts.
Christine H.: And I think LinkedIn has cracked down on them when they realized it but you have basically people in a group conversation and they weren't giving the links and you have to go to their links and share and like and comment so that engagement would go up even if a lot of it was crap. I didn't even want to engage with it. So that was something that just I didn't want to do.
Christine H.: And then the other thing is that I really found that it's a little bit like high school after all. You have a couple of really huge badass influences, maybe the one kind of wants to be their friend in a way. So for me, it was really unsexy at some point where I was like, I know that it works and I know that if I have the goal, I know how to get there, not like just too directly.
Christine H.: But at the same time, it was exhausting to me at some point and so I just like, "I'm still on there. I'm posting regular content, videos with caps. You should always add caps because people don't watch it with sound because they are not supposed to when they are in the office or wherever, so always add caps.
Christine H.: But that was going on like a year ago. So honestly, I just dropped the ball. I know I just like I still post on there and I'm still on there, have a couple of really good connections there. But I'm wondering on what your thought of them is, because I know for a long time it was like, okay, per day you post content. You have to comment on, five. You have to like on four, blah-blah-blah-blah-blah. And I was just like, "I don't have time for this," but at the same time, it's well spent. It's definitely better spent than on other platforms. But give me a little bit of your intake on how things have evolved maybe since then.
Scott Aaron: I mean the pods are on every single social media platform. I think that's bullshit. I think that's forced engagement. I don't believe in forced engagement. I believe in organic engagement. And I will like and comment on someone else's stuff if I like it. I'm not going to do things because I have to. I'm going to engage with someone's content because I'm like, "Shit, that's a really good post." And I'll write great posts.
Scott Aaron: So, everything I do is organic. There's two things that I want to say. Number one, and Christine, are you in the UK?
Christine H.: No, I'm in Luxembourg, Europe.
Scott Aaron: Okay. So, Kendra may understand this but I'll explain it again. You have to treat LinkedIn like a 401(k). So, here in the States, a 401(k) is a retirement fund or an IRA. So, it's a retirement vehicle. What most people get lost in is having LinkedIn like a lottery ticket. I tell people if you want to do something easy, go down to the local gas station or minimart and get a lottery scratch-off ticket because you have a better shot that way.
Scott Aaron: LinkedIn is a retirement vehicle. It's compounded interest over time. You have to make daily deposits to create a compounded interest of income that eventually after enough time goes on that you create the wealth that you truly deserve. It's about doing things without expecting anything in return, leaving people better but being uber-consistent because consistency creates the compounded effect that creates everything that you want in your life. That's number one.
Scott Aaron: Number two, if there's two books that I can recommend every single human being on this planet to read, number one is a book called Go for No. it's a book by Andrea Waltz and Richard Fenton. Andrea has become a friend of mine. I read this book four years ago and it blew my mind. And the basic principle of the book is yes is the destination but no is how you get there and that's all I'm going to say about it. I can do a whole podcast just on that book. It's 70 pages. It will change your life.
Scott Aaron: Number two is the foundational money mindset book, the first money mindset book ever written in 1910 and it's called The Science of Getting Rich. This book was written in 1910 by Wallace D. Wattles. And this book spurred all the other books that you guys are reading: You're a Badass at Making Money, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, The Secret, The Strangest Secret, Think and Grow Rich.
Scott Aaron: Every single one of those money mindset books is off of the teachings of The Science of Getting Rich and it teaches you this: When you live in a world of collaboration and creation and instead of a world of competition and comparison, you can create anything you want in life.
Scott Aaron: And if you harness those two principles and you harness the fact that this is a retirement vehicle, this is compounded interest, it's making those daily, weekly, monthly, yearly deposits and not getting attached to the outcome, doing things without an expectation or results, you will create and live the best life possible.
Christine H.: Okay. Kendra and I were just like, "Sure."
Kendra Perry: Like, "Oh, yes."
Christine H.: Very, very true. All right, so I think this has been really good in terms of we know why LinkedIn has to be on your list no matter what kind of business you have. We talked about the content. We talked about how to approach people. We talked about engagement. So, as I saw it in your bio, you are actually teaching this in more detail to your clients. So walk us quickly through how people can get in touch with you, why they should get in touch with you so that when they are like, "Okay, I really need to get my shit together and this needs to be in my arsenal," how do they do that?
Scott Aaron: Great question and thank you for the opportunity to share this. There's no have-to's but if people are unhappy with the amount of conversations they're not having, and if you don't have enough ... I don't care what kind of coaching practice you have whether it's wellness or business, leads are your lifeline. People are your lifeline. So if you're going to depend on the market that you have now and you're going to depend on your friends and family to grow your business, you're just wrong.
Scott Aaron: And the fact is, is that if you're not consistently growing your network organically, you're not going to have a business in two to three years and I said this on one of my podcast episode. It's called network marketing made simple. If people go all in on Facebook and Instagram and you don't utilize other resources not just an email list or LinkedIn. Instagram and Facebook will eventually bankrupt your business because it's not going to produce the amount of connections required and conversations required to succeed.
Scott Aaron: So people can go to my website, www.scottaaron.net. That's where you can order my bestselling book, the LinkedIn book for network marketing. You can also listen to my podcast, Network Marketing Made Simple. Or you can connect with me on LinkedIn, it's scottaaron. Instagram, it's @scottaaronlinkedin. And on Facebook, it's also Scott Aaron. I do Facebook Lives two to three times a week. I do three trainings on all social media because I believe you have to give before you can get. It's just the law of reciprocation.
Scott Aaron: I try to give as much as I can for free before even people walk through the door to want to do more with me. So I have a ton of free resources, the infographic, everything else, my podcast. Just digest it all. You're going to resonate with something.
Christine H.: Perfect.
Kendra Perry: I love that. It's such a powerful message that goes beyond just LinkedIn. And I feel like I'm like beating a dead horse with this message because I've talked to a lot of health coaches the past couple of weeks because we're launching a year-long business coaching program. And it's just crazy like what these people have been told to do. They've spent like six months building out a course and their strategy is to run Facebook ads to it but they don't have a social media following.
Scott Aaron: [crosstalk 00:44:42] Who are you selling?
Kendra Perry: Like it hurts me.
Scott Aaron: People pay all this shit and then they have no one to sell it to. I had friends of mine that were building ... They were doing a launch for a big online mastermind and I'm like, "How did things go?" And they're like, "No one bought." You have to have-
Christine H.: We've all been there but it's painful because these are people who've been in business for a couple of years and it's exactly the scenario that you said before. People are unhappy about the nonexistent amount of leads that you're having because they've been working their asses off. They've been reinvesting. They are believing. They are doing gratitude work, whatever, polishing their crystals which I do too. I love this. But at the same time, it's like why is it not working and it's because there's essence that's just missing. It's just like-
Kendra Perry: It's inauthentic or people, they're not connecting. They're knocking themselves.
Christine H.: It's outdated. It's not working.
Kendra Perry: It's crazy.
Scott Aaron: They're selling too much and they're connecting too little. And when you change nothing, nothing changes. It's plain and simple. You guys know what the definition of insanity is, which is doing the same thing each and every day expecting something different to happen. If you're not going to change something, you can't expect anything to change in your life.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I mean I've built my whole business on connection and like I don't have a big following but it doesn't matter because the people who invest in you, they actually align with your message. They align with your mission and they will buy everything that you put out there. I've had people moved who were in my health coaching membership when I was doing health coaching. Now they did my course. They're in my membership and they wanted to do business coaching with me and now they're in our mastermind. They're just like, "What are you selling? I want it," like they don't even care.
Christine H.: Yeah, it's very true.
Scott Aaron: It's the know, like and trust. When people know you, they like you and they trust you and they will buy anything that you put out there because they've already seen the result from something before. You have to take the time to really nurture those relationships. Make them very meaningful because here's the other thing, people don't realize this why connection is so important because those raving fans, those raving customers, those raving clients, do you know whose name is going to come first out of that person's mouth? Your words.
Scott Aaron: You have these people organically telling other people about you. I can't tell you how many people reached out to me because of the lives that I have impacted with my coaching. So now, I have people coming to me saying, "I want to work with you. A friend of so and so told me to reach out to you. I want the results that they had." So now, you've built that trust and rapport with those people, they're going to start doing the work for you because they want to, because you've changed their life.
Kendra Perry: Yes, love it, so, so good. Well, thank you so much, Scott. That was a very cool conversation and I actually feel a bit more inspired about LinkedIn. I've been on LinkedIn for a little while. I have a strategy. I tried to reach out via direct message and like have ... I literally just tried to start a conversation.
Kendra Perry: But it's funny, you can sniff out people's intentions from a mile away and when I started conversation with someone, I can instantly tell, "Oh, they're about to try to sell me something," and I fucking hate it. And because I'm on there, I just want to get to know them. I just want to have a conversation, get to know them and see where it goes. But it's like people come on too fast. They come on too strong and there's a lot of spammy people on LinkedIn so it's too bad but don't be a spammer, be a human connection builder.
Scott Aaron: Yes, 100%. Two things that I can leave you with is that your failures always open the doors to your successes. The more often you fail, the more often you're going to learn how to succeed, so you have to have that very high failure rate to get the high success rate. And the last thing is that there's millions of ways of how to succeed and there's only one way to fail and that's to quit.
Scott Aaron: So for anyone that's listening to this and you're thinking of quitting, basically, that's the only way you're going to fail. So no matter how hard it gets, no matter how many ups and downs, bumps in the roads, potholes, speed bumps that you have to go over, as long as you grow through it and learn from it, you will eventually succeed. It's just when the time is right for you.
Kendra Perry: Love it. It touches my soul.
Christine H.: All right, party people. Well, we're always so happy that you tuned in. and if you learned something from this and I'm pretty sure you did, then please go over to iTunes and leave us a five-star review, showing us lots of love, we would adore it. And Scott would adore it. He would be really happy too.
Christine H.: And don't forget to check out whatever is happening in our news, so we're launching our mastermind at this time when you're listening to this live. But even if it's later, to keep in touch with us, we always have goodness coming your way. And I think that's it for this week, so we'll talk to you next week with a Biz Bomb episode. Bye.
We are stepping in the unknown, confusing (to some) and taboo territory on today’s 360 Health Biz Podcast! We have Alison Gordon, CEO of 48North Cannabis Corp. to talk about, you guessed it – cannabis!
In America, cannabis is federally illegal but at state level (in some states) medical cannabis is legal. In Canada however, cannabis became legal across the nation in October of 2018 and edibles became legal in October 2019. However, there's a lot of regulatory work that still needs to be done in Canada and the US.
Depending on your interest and involvement in cannabis, there are areas that are black and white, gray, and frankly…green.
In this episode we discuss:
- legalization and licensing of cannabis in Canada vs America
- what is vaping and is it legal?
- marketing around public opinion
- how to work around marketing cannabis restrictions
- organic cannabis and regulation around quality
- illegal dispensaries vs legal licensed dispensaries
- medical conditions that have seen positive impact from cannabis use
- public perception: why alcohol is accepted by cannabis isn’t
We learned a lot from Alison in today’s episode and we hope you do too!
Alison Gordon - CEO 48North Cannabis Corp. Alison is a veteran of the Canadian cannabis industry, bringing unique experience and relationships to her role as co-chief executive officer of 48North. A skilled marketer, she is celebrated for her ability to shift public opinion and consumer behaviour and has been named one of Canada’s Top 10 Marketers by Marketing magazine. As co-founder of Rethink Breast Cancer, Alison is credited with growing a new generation of young breast cancer supporters, compelled by her ground-breaking communication and pharmaceutical expertise in the health-care realm. Today, Alison is applying her skills to 48North’s business plan in this new era of the cannabis industry. She is on the board of directors for the Cannabis Canada Council.
Connect with Allison on Instagram: @cannabisculturist
Connect with us on social:
Kendra: Hey guys, what's up? Kendra here, welcome to the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I am super excited for today's show because we're talking about kind of a sexy topic. We're talking about marijuana, we're talking about cannabis. It's a very current topic on social media, because we did just recently legalize it. So, we're going to be talking with an awesome guest today. And unfortunately, Christine's not with me today cause she's off gallivanting the planet as usual. I actually don't even know where she is today. But, she will be back, joining me for our next recording.
So today, it's just me and our awesome guests. We are good. Like I said, talking about cannabis, which was actually something I'm very excited to talk about because you guys follow me on social media, you've probably heard me talk about this. I live in a very small town in British Columbia that was basically built on the marijuana industry and up until recently, our whole economy ran on it.
So myself included, I'm comfortable saying this now because it is cool. But, I used to be very much involved in that industry, and a lot of the people I know in this town are very much involved in it. And now that it's been legalized, a lot of my friends are adjusting to kind of like the new landscape of what is coming.
So, I am sitting here with Alison Gordon. She is the CEO of 48North Cannabis Corporation. She is a veteran of the Canadian cannabis industry, bringing unique experience and relationships to her role as co-Chief Executive Officer for 48North. She is a skilled marketer. She is celebrated for her ability to shift public opinion and consumer behavior, and has been named one of Canada's top 10 marketers by Marketing Magazine. That's pretty impressive. And, she is also the co founder of the Rethink Breast Cancer. Alison is a credited with growing a new generation of young breast cancer supporters, is held by her groundbreaking communication and pharmaceutical expertise in the healthcare realm.
Today Alison is applying her skills to 48North's business plan in this new era of the cannabis industry. She's on the board of directors with the Cannabis Canada Council.
Welcome Alison. Thank you so much for being here.
Alison Gordon: Thank you for having me.
Kendra: So, that is a pretty impressive bio. I would love to know first and foremost, like how did you end up in this industry? Like how did this all get started for you?
Alison Gordon: Well, it started in high school, when I started smoking weed and never really stopped. But in terms of as a career, and you know, within the regulated legal industry, I started thinking about this industry, well let's put it this way. In 2008, I had a close family member that was diagnosed with stage four ovarian cancer. And her doctor recommended that she try medical cannabis. And I was like, what? Canada has a medical cannabis program? This is back in 2008, don't forget. So, a long time ago. And I had no idea. And I got very excited, and you know, looking back was obviously quite naive and thinking about these ideas that I had for what I thought this industry could become. I was also really amazed at seeing an older woman who had never smoked weed or used it before, using it daily to help with anxiety, pain, sleep, all the things that come with end-of-life care.
And so I was like, okay, this is shifting. Clearly, there's a shift here. People are going to recognize the benefits of medicinal cannabis. And then for me, I started to think and believe that ultimately we would move towards legalization, which has happened. So, I really started looking at the industry, both Canada and the U.S. back then. At the time I was co-running Rethink Breast Cancer, which I had confounded with my partner, MJ. Was very happy there. We were growing this international organization, working with young women with breast cancer. But I just kept having this nibbling feeling that I wanted to get involved in the cannabis industry. And in 2013 I decided, you know what, Rethink is running amazingly. It can survive without me, as anything can. And I transitioned onto the board and started working in Canada, in the industry.
Kendra: Very, very cool. And so, I think like, for those of you, for those of you who are American, or from outside of Canada, Canada did just recently legalize it. And I know in the U.S., I'm not super familiar with the laws there, but I know in certain states it's more or less like may be decriminalized or legalized to some degree.
And you know, in your bio you mentioned like kind of shifting public opinion and consumer behavior. Can you speak a little bit to that? Like why do you think it's important to shift public opinion? Like what is the current public opinion and like why is that so important to you?
Alison Gordon: Well, let me first deal with what you were saying. So in the U.S., it is federally illegal, still at the federal level. So at the state level of certain states, it is legal for adult use, medical, these things. But the federal obviously trumps the state. And in the Obama administration, you know, there was the Cole memo, which allowed the States the right to govern in this way. With Trump, it's still unclear. So you know, Canada was in a very unique position and still is to be legalized at the federal level.
So, you know, coming back to your question of shifting public opinion. Well you know, this is the biggest part of our job on so many levels. Because what I always say is that the prohibition of cannabis is probably some of the best marketing that ever existed. It should be on the cover of every marketing textbook.
Alison Gordon: As the amount of misinformation that exists out there in the world amongst educated, smart people as well as you know, people, all sorts of people. But, it is just staggering and trying to break that misinformation seems to be challenging.
Alison Gordon: I think we've made tons of headway. The fact that Canada has actually legalized shows that, you know, the government understood that this is no longer something that the mass of Canadian voters would have issue with. Cause otherwise they wouldn't do it.
Alison Gordon: And you know, there's all sorts of different stats in Canada and the U.S. about public opinion. And the opinion, in terms of legalizing, is most definitely significantly higher than those that don't believe it should be legal in both Canada and the U.S. But I think what people don't realize is so much of that misinformation, yes they might believe it's legal, but the view of the type of people who use cannabis or whether they want it in their community, it's still strong. And that's challenging because that impacts our, you know, government representatives who pass the regulatory environments. And I think you know, a lot of the information we get from those, you know, MPs and others still believe that cannabis is a drug, and it's a problem, and it's all of these things. So for us to fully move into a legal market and to get consumers to understand the value of having a legal market, there's a lot of regulatory work that needs to be done in Canada and especially in the U.S.
Kendra: Yeah. And I mean something I've noticed cause like you know, I'm from Nelson, British Columbia. If you're familiar with that tiny little town.
Alison Gordon: Yes of course, very familiar.
Kendra: Very much like a town built on the marijuana industry. And you know, it's just interesting cause the dispensary's, you know, before legalization, you can pretty much get anything. It was kind of in this gray zone. But now that we've moved into legalization, like you actually can't get as much. Like you can't get the edibles. Like you can only get like...
Alison Gordon: ...at the legal dispensary's.
Kendra: Yeah, totally.
Alison Gordon: Yeah. Well those are not yet legal in Canada.
Alison Gordon: So to date, like ending very soon, cause it's coming on October 17th of this year. But, what's been legal in Canada for the past year is flower and one very limited extract. So not edibles, not vapes, not topicals. So anyone who sees those products in the Canadian market today, and likely over the next two months, those are not legal. And so with the big crisis that's been going on, you know, I want to make sure that everybody understands that vapes are not legal in Canada right this minute. It will be in the coming weeks and months. But you, you know, if you don't buy them from a legal entity, then you actually don't know what's in them.
Kendra: And can you just speak to the vape crisis. And like what is vaping? Cause I'm a little bit confused about what it actually is. And I think some of our listeners are maybe unfamiliar with it.
Alison Gordon: Well, I mean vaping is a, I want to say technology. It's probably not the right word. But it's, it's a very particular, well it's not a mechanism, but delivery method.
Alison Gordon: That uses a certain form of oils and heat to turn, whether it's flower or oil into something that you, a vapor essentially you can inhale into your lungs.
Alison Gordon: You know, this is, vaping been around for a very long time. And in terms of things like the volcano, or you know, different forms of it. But what happened, I think, and I don't know the exact history, but with the proliferation of these E-cigarettes people then took that, or I don't know which came first. But you know, that we have sort of that version on the cannabis side, where it's essentially you can buy disposable vapes. So meaning, you'll use it, and these vapes are made out of oil.
Alison Gordon: Right. So they're cannabis oil, sometimes mixed with other oils. Right? So it really depends on what you buy. And that's why you need to buy from a legal market.
Because for example, we acquired a company in the U.S. called Quill. They make vapes. Those vapes are 100% cannabis oil.
Alison Gordon: There's no additives, no fillers. Often people, especially in the black market, are cutting that with oil, other oils.
Alison Gordon: And so you don't know what's in those oils. There could be flavors or this vitamin E acetate that people are talking about, that they think might be what's causing the deaths, they don't know.
So you know, essentially when you're vaping, generally, unless you're taking flower and putting it in a vaporizer, which would be a much larger apparatus. If it's just one of these pens as we call them, it's an oil. And it being heated, and you're inhaling it into your lungs. Obviously there isn't a ton of research in general, even on the E-cigarette side as to the effect of vaporizing versus smoking a cigarette.
Alison Gordon: And then on the cannabis side, you know, same, same. But you know, again, it's been thought to be a better alternative to smoking. But I guess that's TBD.
Kendra: Exactly. Yeah. And that's really interesting. And I think like within the health and wellness space for all of our coaches who are listening, I think a lot of them, I've seen all just a lot of discussion in general in the communities that people are interested in like, you know, using these types of products personally, or maybe with their clients. But there seems to be a big concern about quality. And personally, I've seen indoor grow shows in my community where I see a lot of chemicals being used for example. And you know within the health and wellness space, like people are always really concerned about quality, and organic, and the fact that things aren't used with chemicals if we are going to be using it for a health application. Can you speak to that a little bit?
Alison Gordon: Yeah, well I mean 48North, we are organic in two out of three of our facilities, our large outdoor farms. So the bulk of our product coming online will be organic. So I completely agree with you. That said, the legal market in Canada, again, if you buy from a legal dispensary or from online from your government, you know, online entity or whichever province you're in, if you're in Canada, or in the U.S. from a legal entity, these things are all heavily lab tested.
Alison Gordon: And the government in Canada has heavy, heavy regulations against using any form of pesticides. So even though we are 48North have gone through the process of being certified organic, I can say with a lot of faith that the legal market, you're not looking at the same level like any form of pesticides. Like for example, in Canada, you can't spray the plant past a certain point with anything, including water.
And that's the government's way of just ensuring nothing passes through. And the truth is we have to lab test so heavily that, you know..., It's just like anything I say like you, you go into restaurants that have, in Ontario at least the green thing on the window that they've been inspected and everything's fine. You don't go buy an egg sandwich off someone sitting on the street with a plate. Like you just don't know what's in these things.
So, this is the move that needs to happen towards the legal market. And it's not to say many people in the black market might be doing organic, or they might be doing all the right things. But how are you as the consumer supposed to know?
Alison Gordon: And so that's what I think you know, is where people need to get to from a health and wellness perspective, is recognizing there's value in lab testing. Whether or not you may pay a couple of cents more, 50 cents more, whatever, or less. I mean the legal market might be less in some instances. The upside of that is it's regulated.
Alison Gordon: That's what we ask of our products and do.
Kendra: Yes. No, I absolutely agree. And would you say that's, like that would be similarly true of the U.S.? Like people purchasing in the U.S., if they buy from like a government body, like does that exist in the U.S. like can they try...
Alison Gordon: Well, it's not about buying from a government body. It's about buying from illegal licensed dispensary. And in the U.S., each state will have different requirements around lab testing. California has quite stringent requirements. So, you're quite certain in California that, you know, what you're buying from a legal market is being tested for all sorts of heavy metals, and same with Canada. So yes, it's about buying from a legal market. I think what confuses consumers is when they see stores on the street that are selling weed, they think it's legal because how does that exist if it's not legal? But, that's part of the confusion that's existing, both in Canada and the U.S., as you transitioned to this legal market.
Kendra: So yeah, and I do find that confusing. So, what you're saying is just because there is someone who has a shop open on this, on like the downtown street, it doesn't mean that it's regulated or that it's technically legal?
Alison Gordon: No, and I don't have an answer for you as to how that sort of store would get shut down. I can speculate that the police themselves are confused as to what's going on. That nobody likes to take time and resources in the court systems for things that won't result in jail time. I don't really know how or why. I think they do get shut down and they pop back up. Especially online is where this proliferating.
So people go online, they can get it delivered to their door. They assume it's legal. So you know, I think it's, it behooves people to just actually understand it. Asking them are you legal? Like they may not get the truthful answer. I think it's depending where you are understanding. Like for example in Ontario online, the only place that's legal is the OCS.CA and then we only have about 25 stores in all of Ontario that are legal right now. They are giving out another 42 licenses. But there's some potential delay there. But yeah, I mean it's, it's, they have a symbol on their windows that show that they are actually a licensed retailer.
Kendra: Okay. Okay. That's good to know. Yeah. Cause I've been a little bit confused about that, and I have seen that happen in Nelson. Like places kind of like shut down and like come back up. And then places like now they can't sell this, but you can get it from their online store. And I think just everything being so new, there's a lot of confusion and hopefully that will, you know, over time have a...
Alison Gordon: Look, this isn't like a positive thing. But the easy way to know is like does the packaging look like this? Which is our pre-roll pack, which is the best that we can do in light of having to have these massive warning. And again not to say the black market wouldn't copy this as well. That's the challenge. Right?
Alison Gordon: But I just, if I was in the black market, why would I make it look like this? I would look more appealing.
Kendra: It would be a lot of effort. Like 10 points for effort, that's for sure. Okay. Yeah.
Alison Gordon: And no doubt it happens.
Kendra: Exactly. And I would love to speak a little bit more about like the whole health connection. Why medical marijuana and cannabis is you know, something that we should as health practitioners like consider for certain conditions. And obviously I think you've seen benefit with people who have breast cancer. Like what else can you speak to regarding that?
Alison Gordon: Well I mean I think there's a ton, a ton, a ton of content now on the web about this from people much more knowledgeable than me. But you know just having been in the industry for as long as I have, and speaking with patients, and people like, there's a ton of new actual clinical studies that are coming out. Which is great cause it's really just been anecdotal to date. So obviously with the advent of all these CBD products in the U.S. There's been a lot of interest in CBD. The FDA has approved a drug called Epidiolex made of CBD for epilepsy. So I think CBD is well known as an anti-inflammatory, anti-seizure that can really help people. I have friends with epilepsy that have gotten off all pharmaceuticals just by using CBD. Now of course, once again, not all CBD is created equal, although it is a molecule.
But you know, again, it's doing a little bit of research and looking into the full spectrum. So, it is likely the cannabis plant has over a hundred cannabinoids. CBD is one of them, THC is another. THC is the cannabinoid that when heated gets you high. But there is a hundred cannabinoids and various things in the plant. So you know, it's trying out these full spectrum products that have that entourage effect.
That's something I am biased towards. There is no clinical research to say that's any more effective than using a product like that CBD isolate. But I think intuitively it just makes sense. You know, pain management, glaucoma, MS, Parkinson's, I mean like it does all start to sound like really? But it truly, there is, you know, it's been obviously well-documented that humans have an endocannabinoid system. The cannabis plant and the receptors connect to that.
And I think we're just starting to scratch the surface of understanding how cannabis can help. I mean social anxiety, anxiety's, there are people that I know, and I've read about that you know had extreme forms of anxiety and PTSD, never leaving the house, et cetera, et cetera. That now are able to have a more functioning existence thanks to using cannabis. Some might be okay with a very small amount of CBD. Others, it requires some THC, and you have the problem, or the challenge is, you know, I used to say it's a plant based medicine so of course there's trial and error. But I hate to say that because with pharmaceuticals I think we've all been brainwashed to believe that there's a consistent use, meaning the effect is going to be the effect. But I think the reality is if you have friends who have taken antidepressants, they often need to try three before there's one that works.
So it's no difference, it's just you. You might need a very minimal dose of just CBD to be able to deal, like have your anxiety under control. Others may need more. So there is a trial and error right now, which is part of the problem that the state ranking perception, is that doctors don't have that same ease with which to prescribe and go 10 milligrams. But they were getting there, and we're getting there quickly. And so I think, you know, there's nothing to be scared of. You can try cannabis and see if it works for you. If you are worried about getting highs and start with the CBD product and see where you go.
Kendra: Yeah, yeah I love that. And, I especially love the application to pain management because I know a lot of people like that's how their addiction start. You know, they get into an accident or they have, you know, some sort of chronic issue and they end up addicted to pain pills.
Alison Gordon: Yeah. I mean there is a lot of research to show cannabis as a, obviously an amazing alternative to opioids. But also a successful treatment for opioid addiction.
Alison Gordon: And I think that, that's really important as well.
Kendra: Yeah, that's amazing. And I remember, like many years ago I had ACL reconstructive surgery, and they prescribed me Percocet, which made me feel disgusting. And my friend came over and gave me Phoenix Tears, which yeah. Are you familiar with those? I wasn't sure if that was the Nelson thing or like that's a legitimate, yeah.
Alison Gordon: Yeah, we know of it.
Kendra: And I remember using those and I mean like yeah, they made me super high and like kind of I couldn't really communicate well with people. But I, I wasn't, I was able to not use the Percocet. And like it killed all my pain and that was really amazing cause I just, I've never been really interested in taking pharmaceuticals. So I, yeah.
Alison Gordon: And again, like it's hard for you in that situation. Maybe you didn't have to be that high. Like your friends giving Phoenix Tears. Obviously that's not, you know, regulated. So you don't exactly know what's in it. Even though I'm sure we trust your friend, and it's not about what's in it from an ingredient standpoint. It's like dosing is quite complex, as you could imagine. So, as legal companies who have to lab test, when we say this is the dose, that's the dose.
Alison Gordon: Also, obviously you don't have someone guiding you through that process.
Alison Gordon: Like a physician, which you likely could do now, because we have many more physicians who are educated in this that could, you know, say let's start you on a one-to-one and let's work up. Your friend just kind of brought you Phoenix Tears.
Kendra: Yeah. And though they were so hot here for a while, like everyone was like, Phoenix Tears were like the hottest thing around town. And then this was back when it was illegal. And then I remember like they got so hot that people had to like ditch them and bury them in the forest, because the cops are getting super involved. But I do remember that and I really did appreciate the painkilling. And at the time I liked smoking weeds, so I was fine with being that high. These days, I would probably want to have someone guide me through the experience and not get so high so I could actually function.
Alison Gordon: Yeah. And, and again, like this is a very common saying is you start low, and goes slow. Right? So it's like, it's the same thing. It's no different than Percocet or Oxycontin. I mean, it's totally different, I want to be clear about that. But what I need to say is the misperception that with a pharmaceutical, like that's what you're going to do. I mean, you might've taken that Percocet and maybe you only really needed half of it, or ideally don't take it at all.
But you understand the point that I'm making, which is we lead such blind faith in the pharmaceutical industry and it's so fascinating to me to like, I wish I could fast forward 20 years. Because so much research is being done on cannabis and it's just going to be such a different world. And I just wonder if all of this will be, you know, misconceptions will be wiped out and people will be as skeptical about pharma as they are this poor little plant.
Kendra: Yeah, I mean it is really true. I've always found that interesting. Like how much trust people will have in like the pharmaceutical community, whereas like those types of drugs kill people all the time. Whereas like there's like street drugs and all these other things that like, you know, maybe magic mushrooms, and like marijuana, and stuff when people are just like, "Oh, that's illegal drugs." Like you're a druggie if you do that. Meanwhile, like most people are taking pharmaceuticals.
Alison Gordon: Well I think it's like the tides are definitely changing. Obviously the opioid crisis, especially in the U.S., but also in Canada is like getting front page attention. Which is amazing. But you know, at the same time, I think it's this balance. And my hope of course, is the reason people have faith in pharmaceuticals, whether it's right for them to or not, is it comes through physicians and physicians play a certain role in our society. But also, you know, where they're manufactured, that they're regulated, that things done clinical studies. So all of that gives the public the perception of safety. I'm not going to sit here and start trashing clinical studies, but I think people understand there's lots of ways to collect data. But at the same time, if you know, you got to play the game. And so the goal for our industry, of course, is to get this, you know, double blind studies done so we can prove to the powers that be that this is effective medicine for the things we're talking about.
And you know, no one has ever in the history of, you know, released in, documented to died from cannabis use.
Alison Gordon: So it's, you know, it's toll on your body is nothing and it's, I'm not going to say that, you know, people don't have an emotional addiction, because I don't know the answer whether that is. But there is no physical addiction that's been shown. And also I have many, many friends who were heavy cannabis users that might travel somewhere for two weeks that they can't get it, there is no physical withdrawal symptoms.
Alison Gordon: I mean I think this word just has to spread amongst healthcare community and understand that, you know, a lot of what you hear that it's a gateway drug, it's just total bullshit.
Kendra: I think it is bullshit. I think alcohol is more of a gateway drug. Like I've always made that comparison. Like alcohol is so accepted. But you know, when I used to drink all the time, like I do all kinds of things I regretted, and like end up on like weird people's couches, and be like wake up in the morning and be like, "I can't fucking believe I did that." But like that never happened with weed. Like the worst thing that would happen is maybe I would like eat too many chips or something like that.
Alison Gordon: Yeah. I mean alcohol is really, to me it's unbelievable that people will say, "Oh my God, do you like, do your kids see your weed or whatever?" And quite frankly, like I also suffer the stigma myself. Meaning, I'm in this role, I'm CEO of this company, and I'm still like cleaning up the weed, you know, with my teenagers around, if they are around. But at the same time, I don't even think twice if they come down in the morning, and I've had people over and have drinking. I mean I don't drink myself, not, I never really did. And so, it's just an easy one to wipe out.
But you know, first of all, alcohol isn't just about the bad decisions you make, but for sure it's there. But there's a ton of research that shows the effects of alcohol has on your body and your brain. They're making links to it, to Alzheimer's right now obviously liver diseases, all sorts of other things. But interesting to me is when you saw states like Colorado legalize cannabis, then you saw things like the alcohol sales went down about 30% in Colorado at that time. And then domestic violence went down by 30%. So we know, I think it's just, and this is where going back to 2014. So this information's out there. It's just like I said, you know, prohibition with like a stranglehold on our brains, and it's just people don't want to hear it and believe it.
Kendra: Yeah, I totally agree. And like that must make it challenging for like the marketing side of things. Cause you're a big marketer, top 10 marketers in Canada. Very cool. And like we love talking about marketing on this podcast, and like online business, and that sort of thing. So like how, like what is your sort of strategy towards like marketing, this sort of thing? Cause, obviously you have to shift public opinion, but like where do you go after that?
Alison Gordon: Well, the number one challenge beyond the challenge of shifting opinion is that in Canada we are not allowed [inaudible 00:29:02] as cannabis company anywhere. So, a variety of different strategies.
So one thing we did was create an online platform called Latitude where we share stories about how when women use cannabis for their health and wellness in their day-to-day lives, and it's just average women. And it's, you know, some of them are a mother and daughter, or they may be a yoga teacher, or it may be, like it's all over the map. And the idea there is, when you read these stories, so I'm looking around to see if I have one of the books in the office, in my office, but I don't. But when you read it, and it sells at Indigo, and it's a beautiful book or sort of magazine thing, you, you know, there's, I think a subconscious level where it's like this person's just like me. This isn't a scary person. This person has a good job. They're not just on their couch. But also understanding their rituals around it and how they use it and when they use it. And what it's done for them.
We also have hosted events latitude. Because again, we cannot do that as 48North because we sell cannabis and as part of that, we are not allowed to sponsor events, are not allowed to do all these things.
Alison Gordon: So Latitude, we've had a few events. The last one was on sex and pleasure and a lot of the women that came and spoke if, and the idea there is, it's like we have speakers and they might read poetry, they might tell a story. It's however they want to express themselves. And a lot of them were talking about, you know, really negative sexual experiences, whether it was like all the way of rape to just, you know, those are uncomfortable positions.
Alison Gordon: Like you end up a being somewhere you don't really want to be, and feel in control of. And each one spoke about how cannabis brought them back into their body, how they were able to use it to kill the trauma. And I get, I think, you know, we sell out those events very quickly. So you have a large audience hearing these stories and again normalizing it. And it's all you can do, it takes time and all you can do. You know, I continue to do things like this podcast with you, in the hopes it keeps people keep going, "Oh my God she's kind of like me. She runs a public org, she runs a public company. You know, she must not be out of her mind."
Kendra: And so, you cut out a little bit earlier, so I'm not sure if you already said this, but just like is there any regulations or rules around like if. Cause I have a lot of friends in this community who have like gotten, I guess I don't the right word, they've been given permission...
Alison Gordon: Licenses.
Kendra: Or they've been able to start there like their zone, their warehouse or whatever it is.
Alison Gordon: Licensed, they have been licensed.
Kendra: They've been licensed.
Alison Gordon: And I don't think that many in Nelson have been licensed, so that's interesting.
Kendra: Yeah. There's a few, like the people I'm thinking of, like they've been licensed for a certain number of plants. And then, they have to go through like this whole thing where they have to like show that they have like the space, and like get that approved and like there's this whole thing. And they're kind of working through this process. But I was wondering, like what is like, is the regulation around like sharing that sort of thing on social media? Like if you were to have like, you know, open the warehouse and start growing legally, can you be set up an Instagram account?
Alison Gordon: Sure, I mean we have Instagram. You can go to the 48North Instagram. We do show pictures of our grow, especially the outdoor grow, cause that's exciting to be one of the few, like really I think there's like only five that have been licensed for outdoor and like our scale is huge. We're going on, you know, almost a hundred acres, so 3.5 million square feet. So it's to our knowledge, the largest legal outdoor grow in the world. So that's something like we're obviously documenting and showing on social media from time-to-time. You have two issues in social media, one is that Instagram, and/or Facebook, and others don't allow for weed to be shown. So many, many, many, many people do it. It's just a question of are you going to get caught, and your account shut down, and restart again, which has happened to many of my friends.
Alison Gordon: And, and then the other issue is of course Health Canada and you know again it's just that fine line between showing, educating, and not being promotional.
Kendra: Right. Yeah. Cause I'm guessing there's probably law like rules. You can't advertise. You can't run Facebook.
Alison Gordon: No we can't. That's what I was saying. You can't, well Facebook doesn't allow you themselves Within Canada, that's what I was saying earlier, but I guess I cut out is, you are not allowed to market or advertise at all. You're not allowed to sponsor events. You're not allowed to. You know, in the U.S., you'll have certain brands naming their strains Calm or Energetic just to simplify it or the consumer.
Alison Gordon: You can't do that in Canada. You can't make claims, like you can't do anything. So that's where Latitude or us starting up sort of auxiliary, you know, businesses to be able to educate is so critical to the mission.
Kendra: So, for like the small guys, like for people who, you know, maybe in Canada who are, you know, getting licenses and they're eventually going to be legal and be able to kind of start their own operations. Like I'm guessing, like their marketing strategy is going to have to kind of include a lot of what you guys are doing. Like they're going to have to like also work on like changing perception and making it relatable and that sort of thing. Right. You think that's correct?
Alison Gordon: Well, I mean I don't know. Hopefully as they come online, we've done good work. And we can we help change that? I think everybody has a role to play in that for sure. But, you know, , again, without truly boring your listeners, it is very weird to call this out in your community. Like what a lot of people try and forget, is that we grow for up to sit down and that still exists. So, I'm not sure what you're referring to when you talk about license. They're still growers who are growing for patients, but that's not really what they're doing. Right. So they're legally allowed this grow, and they're saying they're growing them for patients, but it very well, okay. You know,
it might hit the black market, or illegal dispensaries, or whatever it is. I don't know. I don't want us to get rid of people that are growing for patients, and I'm making is that it's very difficult to actually get a license in Canada. Very, very difficult.
Kendra: Yeah. And it seems like, and I'm totally uneducated in the whole process and like, you know, I'm kind of just like, I'm hearing this through the grapevine and yeah, but from what the one thing I do understand, is that it sounds very complicated.
Alison Gordon: It's complicated and Canada's a highly regulated country. So you know, what do we have five banks, five cell phone companies. It's not going to be that there'll be thousands of these companies. What the government did put into effect last year was is the micro processing and micro grows. So you might, in referring to, you know, they're trying to license sort of small boroughs for people to transition from the black market.
But these, you know, it's a very difficult business to be in because then you have to figure out how to get your products onto a shelf which runs to the governments and requires enough quantity.
You know, it's like alcohol. It's like if you want to get your stuff in the LCBO Ontario and you only make a hundred bottles of something, that's very difficult for them to stock and spread out amongst their. So it's not, unfortunately the way it's structured today at business for small businesses.
Alison Gordon: Certain verticals might be, meaning you might grow up very small, grow very, you know, good quality craft, cheap and then sell it to a company like mine who has the ability to take that and get that on to along with our other products. But the industry needs to evolve to allow for small businesses to take part in it.
Kendra: So that's something your company does. Like you might look at like a, like a micro grow and like take their product. And try to like help them like get it to a bigger market?
Alison Gordon: Well, I think what we would do potentially, is we just buy it from them. So we just buy wholesale. It's not like to help them get on the shell. Right. It's to supply us with the high quality input. That we can then use our brands for. You know,
Kendra: it just seems like it's complicated and there's a lot of gray area right now. Because I mean I'm sure lots of people are still selling on the black market and I'm sure the black market's going to be around for a few more years before it totally disappears. Right?
Alison Gordon: The legal market is not gray at all. It's black and white. Right. For the average person, the black market and the gray market. Like it's all bleeding into one.
Totally. Well thank you so much for having this conversation.
Alison Gordon: Thank you.
Kendra: I feel like I learned a lot. I also learned I'm way more ignorant about this industry than I thought I was. That's good. I'll have to do some more reading and I'll definitely be following you on Instagram. And how can our listeners get hold of you and learn more about 48North and Rethink?
Alison Gordon: Well they can definitely follow us on Instagram at 48North. I am on Instagram as cannabisculturist. Which is a bit hard to spell. But if you find your way to 48 North, I'm sure you'll find your way to me. I think there is a lot of, I know there's a lot of great resources online for people to understand the health and wellness aspect of cannabis. So I would just suggest Googling and like whether it's Leafly, or Miss Grass, or any of these other content producers. Like you'll find your way to good content to start to understand what you know cannabis can do for your life.
Kendra: Awesome. Well thank you so much. I really, really appreciate you taking the time out of your, I'm sure. Like you sound like a busy person, so we really appreciate it. And thank you to all the listeners and as always, we will see you again in one week on Wednesday with another awesome episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. Love you all, and we'll talk to you guys next time.
Imposter Syndrome is something that almost EVERYONE experiences. Kendra has, Christine has, and our guest, Tara Wagner has too. So while everyone experiences it (or at least 70% of people according to studies), the important thing is you have to OVERCOME it, especially if you want to succeed in your business.
Imposter Syndrome often has you struggling with yourself – questioning who you are, are you good enough, and all of these fears and doubts that may be holding you back from showing everyone what a kickass human being (and amazing health coach) that you really are!
The definition of Imposter Syndrome is this, it’s the outward appearance of having it all together, while inside you feel sick to your stomach because you think that you are a fraud. It’s you telling yourself "I just need one more certificate and then I can launch this business. Or I just need one more training, or I need a couple letters behind my name." That's imposter syndrome.
In this episode we discuss:
- the definition of imposter syndrome
- the connection between ego and impostor syndrome
- can imposter syndrome be taught to go away?
- can you have imposter syndrome in the comfort zone?
- strategies to help imposter syndrome
- emotions vs facts
- 80/20 rule – 80% mindset, 20% strategy
Imposter syndrome includes personal and spiritual development to overcome it. And if you look at any well-known business owner or anyone you admire, you will see that their success didn’t happen overnight and it didn’t happen with them sitting at the back of the room. In order to grow, in order to be successful, you have to develop yourself and dig up some shit to find out how your emotions are getting the best of you.
Tune into our new episode with Tara Wagner to learn more about imposter syndrome – and best yet, how to overcome it!
Tara Wagner is a Belief Breakthrough Coach for self-employed women barely surviving their business. She helps you identify and overcome your old habits – both practical, as well as emotional and mental – learn a better way of approaching the work/life/family juggling act, and gain confidence in your new role in your growing businesses
Get Tara’s freebie, How to Grow Your Business by Growing Yourself: https://xotara.us/b2b
Connect with Tara Wagner:
Connect with us on social:
Kendra: Hey guys, what's up? Welcome to the 360 Health Biz Podcast. It's me, it's Kendra and sadly it is just me today. Christine is off gallivanting the world as per use, and I actually don't even know where she is right now, but I suspect she might be in Bali or at least on her way there. She is not going to be with us today but that's okay because I have a pretty amazing guest joining me today to talk about impostor syndrome.
Which I think is a very relevant topic for you, the health coach or you. Whatever type of online coaching you're doing because this is something that I've experienced. I'm sure Christine has experienced that, and you guys are probably going to be coming up against this on a regular basis. It is normal, but there's also some things you can do to overcome it, and that is who my guest or what my guest is going to help us with today.
First things first, I got an awesome review on iTunes and I just wanted to quickly read that out because we love, love, love when you give us reviews. That's actually a fantastic way to support the podcast. This is from Simply Will and she says, "These ladies are our key," I'm not sure if Simply Will is he or she, so they, These ladies are wonderful, true heartfelt educators. They really want to help you with your own health and clients. I love listening to them."
Will, we love that you love listening. Thank you so much for the review guys. If you want to take two minutes out of your day and go leave us a five star review on iTunes, probably the best way to help the podcast get out to more people. If you want to support the show, it only takes two minutes. All right, so let's get into our guest today. I'm hanging out here with Tara Wagner.
Tara is a belief breakthrough coach for self-employed woman barely surviving their business. She helps you identify and overcome your old habits, both practical as well as emotional and mental. Learn a better way of approaching the work life, family, juggling act and gain confidence in your new role, in your growing business. Welcome Tara, thanks for being here.
Tara Wagner: Thank you. And it's pronounced Tara.
Kendra: I'm sorry. I better get that out of the way right away, so Tara.
Tara Wagner: It happens.
Kendra: I'm sure that happens.
Tara Wagner: Thank you so much. I am just absolutely loving you guys and this podcast. I'm really happy to be here and talking about probably the biggest elephant in the room that nobody likes to talk about, so just get really uncomfortable.
Kendra: How did you end up in this space? I would love to know how did you even end up here?
Tara Wagner: Yeah. This is a lifelong journey for me that I've probably started when I was in middle school. Where really I struggled so much with my own stuff, my own problems were pretty much all in my head. I was just struggling with who am I and am I enough, and all of these fears, all of these doubts. It led me through some really deep, dark years and I had to find tools that worked for me. It was this long process of just learning how to free myself, because anybody who's been there, they know it's exhausting to be in a hot mess. It's so much work.
Kendra: It is.
Tara Wagner: I spent years just learning how to develop myself with the underlying purpose or goal of being just being free. That is my biggest value, I just wanted to feel free. As I started doing that, I've been an entrepreneur for 20 years. I had another business. I struggled in that business so much because of my beliefs, but total blind spots; didn't see it, didn't understand why I was struggling. When I finally burned out, I sold that business.
I basically gave it away just to be done with it. With through a few years of just introspection, deep healing, deep understanding, so much of my identity was tied up in that. It was just this time of really learning and examining that had come out of that first business. During that time, this was when blogging was taking off. I started blogging just as a personal blog. It didn't actually blog a lot of my own personal stuff, but blogged other things that I was doing in my life.
As I was doing this inner work, my life was obviously starting to expand as well. Because when you start letting go of all of the should'ves and the have tos, and the who am Is, and all of that, you start to do things that nobody else is doing or that you really want to do. You're not held back by anything anymore. I started blogging about our life and I started blogging about our parenting, and how we were doing all these different things.
But it wasn't really sharing how did I get to the point where I could do things so differently? How do you let go of anger and frustration towards your kids so you can be a patient parent? How do you let go of the fear of what other people think so that you can ... At the time, I have my entire front yard was urban homestead, right? Everyone's like, "Aren't you worried about what the neighbors think?" That kind of stuff.
My blog slowly started to transform. Then we went through the recession like everyone else, my husband lost his job. We decided to take it as an opportunity and travel. That's when I had a lot of people coming to us like, "How are you doing this?" Not financially, how are you doing this? Not practically, how do you run an RV but like, "How are you living a life that you want to live without all of this here?"
I just started coaching people on it. I was coaching people through parenting. I was coaching people through lifestyle, but really very quickly what it ended up being was coaching people through their own beliefs. Through that, I pulled all my tools together and realized that, "I actually have a process. I actually have a thing that I do when I uncover a block, or a belief, or a challenge." I developed that more fully and I continued my own learning, and my own research, and testing things on clients over there.
I've been doing this for about 10 years now, and just developed a system or a process that works, that helps you to identify what is actually tripping you up. Then change it and rewrite it without all of the years of therapy and the, not to say anything bad about therapy. I've used it, many people need it. But sometimes it takes you in circles instead of going forward and I needed something that was going to, I need to just stop navel-gazing.
I was at the point, in one point of my journey where I was like, "I can dig and dig, and dig, and understand all of the deep seated problems, and where they all stemmed from." But at some point, you've got to stop the digging and you've got to start moving forward. I had to very quickly because it's so easy for me to dig and go deep, and stay deep. I had to learn a strategy that was faster than that or it was just too tempting to stay in my mark.
That's what I did and I just continue to do it, and I love it. It's one of the things that I have never gotten sick of doing and talking about; is personal development and spiritual development, and how our minds work, how our bodies relate to that and then what we can do to actually change what's not working for us.
Kendra: I love that and I totally know what you mean about going deep but not actually fixing the problem. I think sort of talk therapy for example, is really beneficial to maybe just even uncover that because so many of us are just unconscious, to begin with. We're not even aware. But I went through the talk therapy thing and it was super helpful.
I realized all these things about me, but I got to a point where I'm like, "Okay, I get it now. I get, I have these things, but I need them to be fixed. I need something that actually helps me unwind this and form different belief patterns, right?"
Tara Wagner: Right. Exactly. There's so much benefit. I think one of the biggest benefits of having a therapist or a counselor is a safe place to go to process, and to be heard. For somebody to call you out and be like, "Whoa, Whoa, where we're going right now is not helpful. Let's steer in this direction." But just that space, we're lacking that conscious space where we can really talk about these things without somebody looking at us like we're crazy.
Even though every single person deals with these things, thinks about these things, feels these things. It's universal across the board and yet, if we start to talk about them, it's like, "Oh, she's crazy. Ooh, what's wrong with her? Girl needs help." Oh yeah, we do.
Kendra: We do need it, it's fine. I only wonder what people think about me when I tell them I have three counselors. I have a whole team of counselors with all the crap going on in my head. But I think when it comes to business, what a lot of new coaches, especially health coaches come up against is how much they get in their own way. I don't think people realize how much of online business in general is mindset.
Sometimes I say 80%, I'm pulling that number out of my butt but I think it's a huge portion of it. It's like, "Sure, you can learn the funnels and the sales, and the marketing, and all that stuff. But if you don't deal with your mindset and your blocks, and your limiting beliefs, you will just continually prevent yourself from succeeding," correct?
Tara Wagner: Yeah. You're not the only one that says 80%, it's kind of the 80/20 rule, right? 80% of it is our mindset, 20% of it is our strategy. You need good strategy but if you don't feel solid behind that strategy, you can have the best strategy in the world for a funnel. But in the back of your mind, if you're thinking, "Who the hell am I? I don't belong here. Nobody should pay me. This is complete crap. What am I doing?"
All of that is going to come out in that strategy and so your strategy is just going to flop. It makes a huge difference and no, it's not the only thing we need to address, but it is the thing we need to make sure is solid because it's the foundation. Anything you're building, if you're building it on a rocky foundation or a wiggly foundation ... [inaudible 00:10:21] foundations wiggle, a shaky foundation, it's not going to be solid.
You're not going to have a solid business. That was me and my first business. I had a great skill. I had a good business plan. There were holes in it because of my mindset that I didn't notice and I had potential. I had a great marketplace, I had great marketing, I was doing really well.
But I kept stopping myself because of what was going on in the back of my mind that I didn't even want to become conscious of. Because it was so uncomfortable to look at those ideas of like, "Am I good enough or who the hell am I? Or all of those things." All of the opportunity was there but I couldn't reach out and grab it, because my head wasn't in the right place.
Kendra: Yeah. Absolutely. That makes so much sense and I think a lot of listeners are going to have [inaudible 00:11:16] moments as we go through what we're talking about today. But can you clarify to our listeners, we're talking about impostor syndrome, what is that like, how does that actually manifest?
Tara Wagner: Yeah. Impostor syndrome is the outward appearance of having it all together, while inside you feel sick to your stomach because you think that you are a fraud. It is literally the thing, here's a great example. I see this one the most. Women will say, "I just need one more certificate and then I can launch this business. Or I just need one more training, or I need a couple letters behind my name." That's imposter syndrome [inaudible 00:11:56].
It's usually a rock in our stomach. It's usually a constricting healing in our throat or our chest when we think about putting ourselves out there or talking about what we do to other people. If we think about going to a network events and we just have the shrinking feeling of like, "Oh my gosh, that's where all the real professionals are. I don't belong there." That's impostor syndrome.
But the most important thing is that; outwardly, we look bad ass. We look hot, our stuff looks good. Inwardly, we're the hot mess.
Kendra: Right. Yeah. That's such a great way to describe it. You described it perfectly, especially for health coaches because I see it all the time. They get their IIN certificate or ITN, or FDN, or whatever it is, which really is enough education to be successful. But then they're like, "Oh well, I should get this certification. I should get a certified in essential oils. Oh, I need to do a homeopathy."
They just end up with 10 different certifications, yet they haven't taken any training on business. They haven't put themselves out there or shown up, or really taken any sort of action in their business because they're just waiting. They think they continually need more knowledge. But what I like to say is, I think an expert is someone who just knows a little bit more than someone else, right?
Tara Wagner: Right. Absolutely. The thing that we really get to understand is that we can't get to that expert status without actually taking the path, and putting in the hours and the real life practice. You don't get to be the best cardiologists in the world unless you put in 10 or 20 years of trial and error, and research, and testing things, and listening to your patients, and really delving in deeply into your craft.
But that means paying patience from day one. You don't get to do all of that unless you have real patience. It's the same thing with coaching or I see it a lot in photography, anything like that. Where if you really want to be the expert, the only way to get there is to get out and start doing the things that will bring you to that expert status.
Kendra: Absolutely. Yeah. It's exactly true. The only thing that's ever going to make you feel good enough and that you actually know a topic really well, is actually just getting out there and doing it. But I'll say, if you've gone to IIN or FDN or whatever it is, you already have everything you need. You already know so much more than the average person, you are an expert. You're only going to go up from there, but not unless you actually do the work.
Tara Wagner: Absolutely. Because the thing is, if we just allow that thought in the back of our mind of like, "I'm not there yet, I'm not good enough yet," it'll start holding us back. We'll sit in the back of the room when we're at event, we won't speak up. When we have a thought or when we're ... If we're at a party and somebody's talking about needing something or having some challenge with something that we can solve, we won't speak up to it, right?
We won't go after big opportunities. We will feel that insecurity and will lack that confidence in our gifts, in our current abilities. Then because of that, therefore never develop them to their full potential. We end up staying small or we end up playing, wait, how did I say this before? We end up staying small because we're playing small, right? If you want to be bigger, you got to play bigger. That's the only way. My husband, he does CrossFit.
He doesn't get to this point where he can with these big heavy weights, by lifting the small weights. He gets there by, he started with the small weights and then he got the bigger weights, and the bigger weights, and the bigger ... That's the only way to really grow, is to pick up something that is too heavy for your muscles. Literally that's the way our muscles grow is like, "Oh, this is too heavy. I need to send more resources to this area."
It's the same thing in our business. We will not grow without getting uncomfortable and putting ourselves into situations that [cause quarrel 00:16:10].
Kendra: Yeah. Absolutely. Can you speak a little bit to maybe the connection between ego and impostor syndrome?
Tara Wagner: Oh, it's one and the same. Okay, let me get on my [inaudible 00:16:26] a little bit. Here's my thing of impostor syndrome. It is an inherently selfish and self-centered experience. Because it is our mind saying, "The only thing that matters is what other people think of me." For everybody, especially those that are in a health business, you're here to serve other people. It's no longer about you. You get to get yourself out of the way.
You get to be imperfect. You get to get criticized. Sometimes, you get to make terrible mistakes and embarrass yourself because it's not about you. For me, ultimately we're getting deep on this real fast.
Tara Wagner: For me, impostor syndrome, it's ego. It is you allowing yourself to be self-indulgent and self-centered because you are taking your eyes off of what actually matters. You're here to serve other people. You're here to make an impact. That means even humbly doing so, you get to show up just as you are. You may suck at it and that doesn't matter because you are here to serve other people, not yourself.
Kendra: Yeah. I think a lot of it is like this maybe self-protection, self-preservation thing, right? Because getting out there online is really uncomfortable. Putting your shit out to a bunch of strangers on the internet is weird. That's not normal. We're in this first generation of people who are actually doing this, right? It's uncomfortable and your ego, your self-preservation wants to protect you and it's like, "Don't do that. That's scary. Keep doing it if you feel like it's safe," right?
Tara Wagner: Absolutely. I love that you called it that because I really dislike the topic of self-sabotage, because our egos are never trying to sabotage us, ever. Our ego is trying to protect us and our ability to meet our needs. What impostor syndrome really is, is a desire to be loved, to be appreciated, to connect with other people. Those are very legitimate needs. Those needs should not go anywhere and they're not going to go anywhere.
All impostor syndrome is, is a belief that those needs are going to be threatened if we show up to do this thing that we worry that we're not quite good enough for. That's all it is. It's a self-protection mechanisms to make sure that we can continue to meet our needs. One of the strategies that people really need to practice when it comes to overcoming impostor syndrome is look at, "What are my needs right now?"
Because emotions, the only thing emotions are, are signals of our needs. Unhealthy or somebody might call negative emotions, are signals of unmet needs or needs that are being threatened. Positive emotions are signals of needs that are being met. If we're feeling anxious, if we're feeling afraid, all that's telling us is, "I have a need that either is not being met or that is being threatened right now or I perceive as being threatened right now."
If we can identify what that need is and focus on meeting that need, a lot of times the fear will go away with it. Our mind just wants to know that we're not ignoring these other aspects that are really important to us.
Kendra: Yeah. Do you think with impostor syndrome, is that something that you can coach your clients to not have it all and go away, or is it something that you feel will continually show its head as time goes on, but you just have better strategies to actually deal with it?
Tara Wagner: It varies. I have seen it completely go away for some people. For most people, that's not the case. For most people, it just is a different experience. Instead of it being this, "Oh my gosh, what's everybody thinking of me? I'm terrified, I can't move. I'm paralyzed." Instead of it being that it's like, "Oh, there's that old friend again, he hi by and move on." It's just, Oh what's the word I'm looking for?
It's just weakens, right? It's lost its emotional charge. It's there but it doesn't have the same impact. Over time, depending on how much energy we put into cultivating the alternative, we can get to the point where it never comes up or rarely comes up. But that does take a lot of practice and a lot of focus.
Kendra: Yeah. I agree. I was having a conversation with a coach not that long ago and I was just telling her, because she's just like, "Well, I just need to do this and that I won't be scared." I'm like, "Do you realize that the fear doesn't really go away? Every time you do something new and you launch a new program, or a new service, or you make a pivot in your business, you're going to experience fear. It doesn't actually go away. You just get to the point where it doesn't hold you back from taking action."
She was like, "Oh, I thought it just went away." I'm like, "No, everyone has fear. Doing something different is always scary, but it's not like it just goes away for any of these mindset blocks we probably come across. It's about actively working on them regularly," right?
Tara Wagner: I think what happens when you do get to the point where you're really practice and you're really competent in something, what happens is that the fear shifts. You don't perceive it as fear anymore. You have the same sensations but it's not fear behind it, it's excitement, right? Because they're so closely related in the body. The only difference is, what's the thought like pushing that sensation out.
That's really what happens. Before this podcast, I felt the same thing. I was like, "Ooh, I got some butterflies. Oh okay, my throat is tightening up a little bit." That's just my signal of, "Oh, I'm doing something fun. I'm doing something good." Because if I'm not feeling that, I'm not challenging myself, I'm not putting myself out there. But now instead of 10, 15 years ago, that would've been like, "Oh my gosh, I can't do this. My throat's going to close up, I'm not going to be able to speak. I'm going to make a fool out of myself."
All of those thoughts would have come with that sensation. Now my automatic habit when that sensation comes up is, "All right, take a deep breath. Let's center ourselves. Let's remind ourselves why we're here, who are we here to serve? What are we about?" And it shifts. That sensation where it would have lasted, honestly, I probably would've felt it like three days prior to the interview and then just been sick all the way through it.
Now it's like 30 seconds and then it just shifts right back into like, "Where are we going from here?" It's just an experience and you don't have the meaning that we applied to it. Like, "Oh man, do we love to apply meetings to things that aren't always that meaningful."
Kendra: Yeah. So true.
Tara Wagner: You mentioned earlier too that, oh-
Kendra: Go ahead.
Tara Wagner: You mentioned earlier that it was so common. One of the things that I like to point out to people is, it's incredibly common. The research that's been done on it says that probably about 70% of people deal with it at some point. Then it comes up any time you are doing something new and big, which basically means if you're doing something of value. What I try to remind people is that, the 30% of people who aren't experiencing this are probably ... They're not superhuman person who just has it all together.
They're probably the portion of the population who are calling it in. They don't have big goals, that are not pushing their boundaries. They're not getting outside their comfort zone. They not trying to make a difference. They're waking up, going to work, coming back, watching TV, going to bed, repeating, right? These are people who are in a comfortable place. The reason why it is so prevalent amongst entrepreneurs is because you are constantly pushing at that boundary, you're constantly putting yourself into a new position.
It's like once you make it to five figures, then you're pushing six. When she make it to six, she's like, "Can I do multiple six." You're always, always, always expanding, which I think is a really good thing. There's three things in life that will grow you. I call them people growing machines. One of them is marriage, the second one is parenting and the third one is owning your own business. All of those will require you to not get comfortable.
You have to continue trying new things, put yourself into new situations. As soon as you have it figured out, something changes. It's just the nature of what we're doing. It's important to understand that if you're feeling it, it means you're on the right track. Because it's the high achievers that feel it the most. All of the research will show that every high achiever will feel impostor syndrome.
I always tell people, "Congratulations. You're in good company. That means you're actually doing something about you."
Kendra: Yeah. Oh, I love that. That's so interesting. Yeah, speaking to the people who are living inside their comfort zone, there's nothing wrong with that. A lot of people, they just put comfort and security really hard values, and I hear your dog. That's totally okay and that's fine, but if you want to have a business, you can't run an online business while just hanging out in your comfort zone.
It just doesn't happen. It's really important to realize that you have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable.
Tara Wagner: Exactly. Those are my thoughts, exactly. We get to ... Okay.
Kendra: Cute dog.
Tara Wagner: She's just a menace. She's just been such anxious little girl since our other one passed.
Kendra: Oh, that's sad. Oh, oh.
Tara Wagner: Now she's happy. She's on my lap.
Kendra: That's good. We are dog friendly here on the Health Biz Podcast.
Tara Wagner: I'm telling you, it's like a toddler. You can leave them home alone but they're just as needy sometimes.
Kendra: So true. I would totally think that would be true.
Tara Wagner: Yeah.
Kendra: All right. Let's talk about some strategies because I think now we've shown the audience that what they might be feeling and now we've given it a name. Because they've probably experienced those things, but maybe they don't know that it's a thing. It's impostor syndrome and that's something that we all go through, especially as high achievers.
When you coach people, what type are you getting doing visualizations, are you reframing beliefs, are you doing meditation stuff, what does that look like?
Tara Wagner: When I'm working one-on-one with somebody, it's going to be very unique to their personality and what really speaks to them. But when I'm talking about it like this, there's a few things that I like to teach. The first thing is that, in order to do any of this work, we have to detach our emotions from the work you're about to do. It's very important to remember that feelings are not facts.
We really love to glorify them in our culture. We really love to talk about them as though they're just so amazing. They are important, but they are not as important as we often say they are. The reason that we need to detach them is, because as you're going into impostor syndrome, you're going to come up against some stuff that does not feel good.
It's important to take a stance of non-attachment in that, so being able to observe the feelings and not believe the feelings, right? Because otherwise what happens as we start digging into this stuff, we hit on something that feels terrible. Then we just wallow in it and we feel terrible, and we quit our business. Instead of, "Okay, I'm noticing this feeling and what's that telling me about my deeds, how do I want to approach this, oh, isn't that interesting?"
Kind of going into it like a curious observer and just watching what comes up as it comes up. We really need to look at this from a more logical place, because impostor syndrome is so emotional. It's so untrue and so bringing in that logical mind is really important. That's always the first step of, just mentally prepare yourself. I know it's not a very practical step.
Which is kind of mentally prepare yourself of like, "Okay, some stuff is going to come up, how do I want to deal with that when it comes up? What do I want to say to myself or remind myself when I start to feel maybe some shame or anything like that, that might come up as I'm digging into this process?" That's always the first one, to kind of set that intention of, "I'm in control here. My emotions don't get to tell me what we're doing."
Kendra: Yeah. I love that because it's like, just because you think it doesn't mean it's true.
Tara Wagner: Absolutely. Amen. Hallelujah. I need it on a t-shirts and a tattoo, and a business card to pass around to a lot of people I know.
Kendra: Yeah. It's so true.
Tara Wagner: I'd like to coach people that we know.
Kendra: Yeah. I love that and that was one of the first things I learned when I started doing talk therapy. I was like, "Oh, just because I feel this and it's having this effect on my, physically and emotionally doesn't mean it's actually a true story." A lot of times it was not a true story. It was just some random story I had created in my head that wasn't actually true.
Tara Wagner: Exactly. It gets imprinted because of a situation or maybe messages that we just repeatedly heard. But that doesn't make it real, especially when most of those messages were created from the mind of a child. It didn't have all the understanding. They didn't understand the difference between I did a bad thing and I'm a bad person. We take in these messages from a really limited and sometimes worked perception or perspective.
Then we just go about believing that they're true, because the mind is actually designed to reinforce its own beliefs. Everything that has seeds, it will say, "Oh that, I'm going to use this as a way to reinforce my belief." If it sees something to the alternative, if it sees something that contradicts its belief, it'll just call that the exception to the rule. Like, "Oh, that's just that one."
It's like if somebody gives you a compliment and you're like, "Oh no, but I really suck. I was good at that, but I really actually suck at this," right? That's just what your mind does. It will hold on to its belief and so you just continue to believe that belief that you believe it. We never questioned that because we're not taught to question our thoughts and our emotions.
A lot of times, we're either taught to ignore our emotions or we're taught to glorify them. There's no middle healthy ground of, yes, our emotions are signals that we need to listen to, but we need to make sure that they're not running the show.
Kendra: Yeah. Something came to mind when you were saying that and I think this is a quote from maybe Louise Hay. That was the first sort of mindset book. It's called, You Can Heal Your Life. It was the first mind that really started to make me realize that I was manifesting some certain things that I might say, I was having the same experience overall with dating and relationships.
I just couldn't find one and I eventually realized that it was me perpetuating that situation. I think what she said is that, "Your beliefs form your reality and then your reality confirms your belief." It just this vicious cycle, if you continue to say, "There is no men in this town, I'll never find a relationship. I'm never going to find someone to love. I'm never going to find someone to settle down with."
I'm just going to keep having that experience. Then that's just going to reinforce what I believe about relationships, right?
Tara Wagner: Because how can we see anything if we're wearing a blue tinted glasses? Everything we're seeing is going to be blue. How could it be anything other than that until we realize, "Oh, I've got these blue tinted glasses on me, let me take these off and then see what it looks like."
Tara Wagner: It's, how could it be any other way, that's just the mechanisms of the brain. That's just how your mind works. It's not a bad thing, it's a little outdated and it doesn't grow with us.
Kendra: Yeah. Exactly. There was one belief that I come up all the time and it's just so funny because I get people saying, "I can't raise my prices because people in this area can't pay that." I'm like, "Do you realize that's just your perception, you actually have not seen into those people's bank accounts. You have no idea what they can and can't afford. That's just something you're telling yourself. You're telling me in this whole city of 200,000 people, that you can't find 50 people to pay for your services? Think about that."
Tara Wagner: Exactly. Now if you live in a town of 100 and it's in the middle of a low income, sure, I'll give you that.
Kendra: Yeah. Totally.
Tara Wagner: But you're right, the majority of people are surrounded by opportunity. I was in my business, right, but you just can't see because you can't see past your own nose, really.
Tara Wagner: Yeah. That first step is really about setting that intention. The second step is about digging into the experience of impostor syndrome itself. What I tend to tell people to do is journal about it. The reason that I like pens and paper journaling is it slows you down enough, that you can actually get into more of the unconscious or even just the less conscious, right? Not necessarily unconscious, but things that we can zoom my life, we're just typing answers out.
Asking ourselves the questions of, "What was the situation where I was experiencing this, or what situation am I afraid of that might bring this up? What are the thoughts around that situation? How do I feel, how does my body feel in those situations? What are my beliefs or my worries, right?" Because sometimes the beliefs are completely unconscious. We might really be aware of them and we might be completely unaware of them, but the worries not so much and that it's often really closely related to the beliefs.
What am I worrying about is going to happen. For me, I always had this thought in the back of my mind. I don't know where this image came from, but this is just the way the brain works. I pictured people with pitchforks running me out of town, I have no idea why. I live in a big city, I must've seen something somewhere as a child. I have no idea.
Kendra: It's funny.
Tara Wagner: But impostor syndrome, it looked like a crowd of angry people, maybe with pitchforks or maybe just with this, but they were just charging me out of town, that's what it was for me. Spend some time, really understand the entire experience that you're having around it. Oftentimes, you're going to see some things come up that you weren't even aware of. Many times, not always, at least a layer of that impostor syndrome will fall away or it'll get a little bit lighter just through the awareness of it.
You'll have kind of an aha moment or you'll realize how silly it is to think people with pitchforks are going to come after you, and you can talk yourself down from the ledge a little bit. Then from there, it's really about looking at the impact that it's had on you. I will take people through some exercises and generally I will have people do this on their own. Because if we have somebody watching us during this process, what will end up happening is, we'll filter.
I would never have told anybody 10 years ago about people with pitchforks. I barely could admit it to myself, I'm not going to tell someone else even if it was a therapist or a coach. Just taking the time to look at these things yourself and look at, "What impact has this had on me, where would I be in my life right now if I didn't deal with this?" Now, this doesn't mean that where you are right now isn't good enough.
If I look at it, I'm like, "Well gosh, I would've probably still been in my other business and I probably would've scaled that, and kind of glad that I didn't do that." That's not the point though. The point is to realize just how much further I could've been as a person or in my own personal goals if I didn't have this thing just dogging me all the time telling me, "I'm not good enough, I'm not good enough," and constantly holding me back.
Because for most people, impostor syndrome looks like going 70% of the way, right? Never really giving it your all and then being able to blame that when you don't actually experience success. "Well, I didn't do this. I didn't do that. I could've done it, but didn't." It keeps us in that safe comfort zone, right? Really looking at those things and looking at how is this causing you harm, how is it trying to keep you safe but really keeping you from the things that you've wanted.
Where could you have been in your life at this point if you had dealt with this five years from now? This is a little bit of a painful step for people. I actually will tell people, "If you don't know that you can do this objectively, if you really think that it might spiral you down a little bit, don't do it." It's not a necessary step but I find that it helps to create the motivation to stop ignoring the problem, right?
Because then it's like, "You know what, am I going to allow the next five years?" There's a difference between living five years and living the same year five times, which one am I going to allow? "Do I still want to be dealing with this in five years or do I want to really confront this?" They said, "Take it head on and change it." Hopefully the answer is, yes.
Kendra: Yeah. I love that because I think pain is a big motivator, right? People make decisions and take action based on emotion more than they do anything else. For me when I started my business, I just had a knee injury, I was working in forestry. I was trying to be a professional skier, all of which I needed my knee for. I was like, "I need to do something else," so I started an online business and it was terrifying.
But the fear of, "If I don't do this, I'm not going to have a job. I'm going to have to move back to the city, from the beautiful small towns that they live in because there's no jobs here," right? That pain was such a big motivator for me and so I think it can be a really good motivator. But you're right, people have to be okay with going into a dark place.
Tara Wagner: Yeah. It's not appropriate for everybody. There's been times in my life where that was not what I needed to do, and so have a level of self-awareness of like, "Is this going to be helpful for me?" But don't shy away from it. We live in a world right now that is all about fluffy mindset work and like, "Let's stroke the ego and make ourselves feel good." That's not real mindset work.
Real mindset work is to look at all sides of it and develop ourselves even when it's tough, even when it's messy, even when we really don't want to get up early and meditate. It's about doing the things that don't necessarily always feel great. Again, we don't want to wallow in it. Feelings aren't facts, but we do want to use the mechanisms in our brain. There's two things that motivate us, pain and pleasure.
When it boils down to it, we're just big giant mammals and it's pain and pleasure, and so use both of them, right? The next thing that I'll have people do is look at, where might you be without this, what could be created, what might happen? Again, this is the same thing. Some people will avoid this question because it's too scary. That's okay, take the steps that you can take and be okay with that.
If you can't take the big giant leap forward, pull a Bill Murray, take the little tiny baby steps and then guess what? If you're hiking up a mountain, right, when you get halfway up, the second half doesn't look that far away anymore. It doesn't feel that big and scary. Take the step that feels okay now and be at peace with that, and come back to the next step when you're ready to come back to the next step.
If that's six weeks from now or six months from now, or two years from now ... I hate to break it to you but you're never going to stop growing and you're never going to get there in this lifetime. The whole point is to just do this work. So just do the work and make peace with the fact that you're not going to have it all together. None of us do, we like to look like we do on Instagram.
Kendra: Absolutely. I love that analogy because I'm a crazy mountain woman. It's so true, when I hike mountains where you're at the bottom and you're like, "Holy fuck, that is a long way off." But you gain elevations so quickly, even when you're hiking super slow. All that matters is that you're putting one foot in front of the other and you're moving forward.
Tara Wagner: Yeah. If I were to stand at the bottom of a staircase and be like, "I need to get to that top step in one stretch," I'm going to hurt myself, right? But if I get to the first step and I'm like, "Oh, that's a little closer and that's a little closer, and that's a little closer," but we don't do that. We're living in a culture right now of instant gratification and so if you don't get there overnight, we think that we're failures.
I would encourage you to look at any successful person that you admire and find them in a podcast, in a book, in a blog post, in an interview talking about their journey and their mistakes, and how long it took them to create that overnight success. Because it's just not real. It's just a fabrication of our current media right now, and it's not intentional.
It's just the way that things look and the way our brains perceive them. It's doing more harm than good if we're not paying attention to it.
Kendra: Yeah. I think comparison is a really, we all do it. It happens and [inaudible 00:42:59] easy when you're new. You're like, "I'll have health coaches look at my business," and they're like, "You put out so much content. It's crazy, I just don't know how you do that." I'm like, "Yeah, because I have a whole team. The only thing I do and my business now is create content, my team runs the rest of the business for me."
Four years ago, I was doing everything so I wasn't everywhere and I was struggling to get content out. It's just like you can't compare your business to someone else's who's at a different place in their journey. Nobody really blows up overnight, I don't think that happens. Maybe it's happened to the odd person, but it's like they [inaudible 00:43:34] the exception, the way up.
Tara Wagner: If it happened to that odd person, were they able to sustain it?
Tara Wagner: Because most of the time, I think of this all the time, I'm like, "Would I be ready if Oprah called?" I don't know where I heard that question. It wasn't my question, heard it somewhere else. But I'm like, "Oh, snap. No, I wouldn't." Then my next question is, "Okay, what would take me one step closer to being ready when Oprah called?" Because the truth is, that kind of success you've got to build up to, it's like the muscles in the gym, right?
You can't go in and lift a 400 pound weight without putting in some years of practice to get to the point where you can sustain that type of success. It's the same with our business. I know that people hear this all the time, "Don't compare your beginning to someone else's middle or end." But what I want people to do when they are doing that, to keep it practical. Because it's not very helpful to say don't compare, because our brains are actually designed to compare.
We're going to compare, we're not going to stop it. Compare better. If there's somebody in your industry that you admire, you love their business, you love what they're doing and you want to do what they're doing, scroll back on their Instagram feed to when they started and compare, "Okay, what were they doing then and what am I doing, did this work for them? Where did they really start to gain traction and what were they doing around that time?"
Learn from those things, but learn from their beginning. Actually do the work to compare yourself to the right place in their trajectory.
Kendra: I agree.
Tara Wagner: Because in 10 years, they're going to now be 20 years ahead of you. You're going to always feel like you're chasing something, instead of just learning the things that you need to learn to build the business that you want to build.
Kendra: Yeah. I love that actually. That's a really good idea because yeah, it's true. We do compare ourselves regardless, but we're all different people and we're all in different places. We should use comparison maybe as a tool to grow or as [crosstalk 00:45:33] right?
Tara Wagner: Leverage it. It's going to happen, you're going to compare so learn how to do it in a healthy way. I actually have a whole video on this, on YouTube of, I think it's called how to stop comparing. But really it's about how to do it better, how to make sure that you're doing it in a healthy way. One of those ways might be, put some freaking blinders on, then subscribe from these people.
It's just not necessary and you're losing your voice trying to emulate someone else's. But when you do compare and do so when you're feeling healthy, right? We all have days when the last place we should be is on Instagram, looking at our competitor's feed. Then we have our days where we're like, "We got our shit together, we're feeling good, we can do this."
Use those moods to do that research and learn what worked for them and how can I apply this to my business. Leverage what's going to naturally happen in our brains to benefit you, versus harm you.
Kendra: Right. I love that. What would you say is one thing, one small step that our listeners could do today to maybe help with this situation with impostor syndrome?
Tara Wagner: It's not a small step. It's probably the most important step and that is; practice the shit out of it. Everybody wants to say, "Oh, that's not me. I'm just not good on Facebook live, that's just not who I am. I'm not a public speaker. I'm an introvert." I'm sorry, I'm going to lay down some tough love here. Introvert does not mean social anxiety. Introvert does not mean shy. Introvert does not mean you can't run your business.
Introvert does not mean you cannot be a great speaker. Introvert means after you do those things, you need to go rest because you're tired. You just gave all your energy away. That's what introvert means. We need to practice the mindset that we want to emulate because all of our mindsets, whether it's impostor syndrome or some other fear, or overwhelm, or whatever it might be, all they are is habits. You're not faking it till you make it, you're practicing a new habit until you develop it.
That's all it is. Outline literally, "What would I do without impostor syndrome? If I loved and approved to myself, even though I had gaps; skill gaps, experience gaps. Experience gaps, things that I'm not happy with. Even if I had those things, but I still liked myself. I still knew I was in the right place, doing the right thing at the right time, what would I do? What would I say? How would I show up? How would I hold my body? What would the expression on my face look like?"
Then practice that. Practice it in your bathroom, practice it before you get on a call. Practice it before you go to a networking event. Practice it before you get on an airplane. Literally practice who you want to be. Because who you are right now is only that, because you've done decades of practice. Thankfully, it doesn't take decades of practice to change it around, it might just take a few conscious efforts for you to really start seeing that traction.
But that is the most important thing. Mindset work really truly, does not happen in your mind. It happens when you hit pavement, when you start putting it into real life. If you're not doing that, you're not going to see changes. You can journal, you can meditate. I'm a big meditator, don't get me wrong. But if you're meditating to change your personality or to grow as a person, it's not going to happen until you practice those things.
Your body needs to experience it for your mind to finally fully get it. There's no other way around. I wish there was, I wish I could make it easier. It's going to be awkward and you're going to hate it, but that's why you practice in your bathroom first. Then you slowly just [intro 00:49:35] way into the next little step.
Kendra: Yeah. I love that. I love the idea of practicing for who you want to be. I noticed actually, just sometimes there's a small things that you can do too. I noticed that I became way more confident when I stopped working in front of my desk in my pajamas. Every day I get up, I make myself look nice. Nice, like I'm going to a job. At the end of the day, I clean off my desk, I wipe it down, I clean the office.
I make everything look professional and I get up like I'm going to a real job every day. Because before, I used to just hang up my pajamas in bathroom all day. I'm like, "That didn't work for me."
Tara Wagner: It's so true because, again, what our body does, our mind is interpreting. If we're showing up in our PJ's and there's nothing wrong with that. I've had years of working in my PJ's. I got a lot done, I created some success and it was awesome. But there will come a time in everybody's business where you'll notice that what got you here, won't get you there, right? You'll have to make some sort of shift and I had the same shift.
There's something magical about putting on your best pair of shoes when you're just going into your home office. You step into bad-ass mode, like, "I've got my boots on, we're going to kick some butt today." It's the same as, if you just start smiling, right? It changes the way that you feel. What we do affects how we show up. Absolutely, take a shower, do your hair, do your makeup. It doesn't have to be like the full thing.
But if you're showing up as your best damn self, if you were really owning what you do, who you are, how you do it, what would that look like? Maybe that is yoga pants, rock on but do it consciously. Consciously create that mindset because what's happening right now is, the mindsets getting created. Everything we do is created in the mindset. But most of the time it's just unconscious. It's haphazard, it's kind of thrown together and it's usually not very helpful.
Kendra: Yeah. I totally agree. I love that. When I work with people I'm always like, "Tell me what your perfect work day looks like. What are you doing, what do you do when you get up in the morning, what types of appointments do you have?" It seems to be a really hard question for people to answer, because they're not even really sure what, maybe even they want that to look like.
Tara Wagner: Yes. Or don't even know what it could look like. I remember that question being asked of me and it took me years to be able to create my ideal routine. It really happened because of trial and error, like, "Well, let me just start with this and see how that works. Oh, you know what? This is really causing a problem. Let me shift that." Again, these things take time, there's no overnight success in our morning routines either.
But there's just something powerful about consciously designing what we want to live, what we want to experience. Like I said, it's not easy. I think that it can be easy but it's probably not going to be for most people, because we're not very enlightened beings and so we're going to bring all of our challenges into it. That's what makes it not easy. But if we can just make peace with that, the process starts to unfold and it gets easier. Even though we're doing all this hard work, it just doesn't feel the same way anymore.
It doesn't feel as hard. It's just like going to the gym. You don't love it at first but you keep going because you know you need it. After a while, you want to go, you crave it. You still love it, like, "I will still rather be in bed at 4:30 in the morning," but I get up and I meditate because I know I'm going to feel good later. It's the same thing, we put in the work now for the benefits down the road.
Kendra: Yeah. I just really love when people realize that they can create and design their own lives in whichever way that they want to. We see so many people in victim mode who think everything's just happening to them, and I can see that in someone and just feel sad because I'm just man-like. If they just took personal responsibility and started being aware of how they were creating their own experience, they could have their dream life, right?
Tara Wagner: Yeah. Exactly. That really brings it back to that value of freedom for me. That's really where I was, of just feeling trapped to my own thoughts and emotions and so many people don't realize they're even trapped. That is the one thing. If I can leave one message on this world when I die, it's that, it's up to you what you perceive 100%. I'm not even talking about law of attraction and attracting what you desire or anything like that.
I'm talking about just basic brain mechanics. What you focus on is how you feel. You can literally create pretty much any personality you want, any outcome you want, if you're willing to put in the work and do it. If there's something in your life that you don't like, you can change it. If you're willing to do the work now, that work might be easy for some people and hard for other people based on where you're starting.
But it's still ultimately a choice. If it's not serving you, if it's not serving other people, when are you going to let it go?
Kendra: Yeah. Totally. Oh, love it. I love it. Well, can you let us know, Tara, how listeners can connect with you and learn more from you if they wanted to do some of this work?
Tara Wagner: Absolutely. I actually have a workbook that I put together that you guys are welcome to have. If you go to xoTara.us/isworkbook, so impostor syndrome workbook, what I've actually done is take in and broken down eight steps. Some of which we've talked about today, some of which we haven't, that people can walk through to start this process. Really in a powerful way, I really tried to put some real coaching in there.
I tell people all the time, "I'm a tough coach, not a fluff coach." I didn't put a lot of fluff in there. It's real practical, tangible steps to really give people some guidance on like, "What can I do with this, how can I really overcome this?" It's xoTara.us/isworkbook. They can download that for free. You can find me on YouTube @TaraWagner and I do weekly coaching videos there, so lots of practical, tangible stuff.
I tried to keep it really down to earth because I know how frustrating it is to talk about mindset and then walk away and go, "But how do I do that?" Then Instagram @TaraWagner, as well.
Kendra: Cool. Yeah. We will make sure to link to all of that in the show notes. I was just creeping on your YouTube channel. It looks like you've got lots of great videos there. I'm a big fan of YouTube so I was like, "Yeah."
Tara Wagner: You do?
Kendra: Awesome. Well thank you so much, Tara, and thank you to all our listeners. We appreciate you hanging out with us and having this very uncomfortable, but hopefully enlightening conversation. Make sure to connect with Tara if you are noticing that in yourself. I'm sure she has lots of fantastic tips in her free workbook. I will see you guys in a week from now and in two weeks from now, hopefully it will be me with my compadre, Christine again. Hopefully she'll be back from gallivanting the world. Thank you so much guys, and I'll see you guys in the next episode.