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5 Steps to Get You to $5,000 a Month with Amanda Daley

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No matter how much marketing and sales experience you’ve had, marketing YOURSELF is so different, so much harder than selling a product that isn’t directly tied to you. Amanda Daley experienced this first hand. With 19 years of marketing experience for big corporate businesses, she struggled to sell herself as a health coach. In fact, the first nine months of her business she didn’t have any clients.

After some mindset work and doing the work to determine her ideal client, she went from $0 to $5,000 a month. And today she’s letting you in on what the 5 steps are to reaching that so you too can make $5,000 a month.

The 5 steps to making $5k are: mindset, finding the right business model, client niching, the perfect sales sequence, and saying yes/no to a client.

1. Mindset

2. Finding the right business model

3. Have the right eyeballs on you

4. Ask for the dance

5. Soulful sales

To learn more about these steps, tune into the episode.

Amanda Jane Daley is a leading Business Mentor for Health Coaches worldwide. Renowned for her marketing expertise (with over 19 years of experience!) Amanda has earned recognition by the world’s top advertising awards, and has built her own 7-figure coaching business in under 5 years. Founder of the successful health coaching biz 'Fuel Urban Wellness', Amanda combines her business + coaching savvy to mentor other health coaches to start their businesses and learn to make $5K+ per month — and has been dubbed the 'leading expert' for Health Coaches who desire a heart-fuelled business and a freedom-based lifestyle.

Freebie: https://www.amandajdaley.com/360

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Amanda’s freebie: www.amandajdaley.com/360

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TRANSCRIPTS

Kendra: Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I am here all by myself, sadly Christine is not with me today. We are recording with a very special guest who is on the other side of the world, managing three time zones was not possible, so you just have me but we have an awesome episode as always for you. I'm actually super excited for this episode because I am interviewing someone who I followed many years ago when I was starting out my business as a health coach, so it's very much a full circle moment and we have like a total OG, the OG business mentor for health coaches.

Kendra: So we are hanging out today with Amanda Jane Daley or Amanda and she is a leading business mentor for health coaches worldwide renowned for her marketing expertise with over 19 years of experience. Amanda has earned recognition by the world's top advertising awards and has built her own seven figure coaching business in under five years. Founder of the successful health coaching biz Fuel Urban Wellness. Amanda combines her business plus coaching savvy to mentor other health coaches to start their businesses and learn to make 5k per month and she's been dubbed the leading expert for health coaches who desire a heart-fueled business and a freedom-based lifestyle. Welcome Amanda.

Amanda Daley: Thank you, thank you. So great to be here.

Kendra: Yeah, I'm super excited to talk to you today and we're going to be talking about five steps to 5k months and I really love that because I think everyone's talking about the 10k months, but when you're only making 1k a month, 10k seems crazy.

Amanda Daley: Totally.

Kendra: I would love to know, why don't you introduce yourself and just tell us like how you ended up here and why you focus on helping health coaches?

Amanda Daley: Yeah, sure. Absolutely. It is so great to be here and so special to hear that you've been following, for all those years, definitely. Yeah, it helps me reflect where I've come from, but when I mentioned the 19 years in online business and marketing, that was my whole life really. My first job was in the startup team of eBay in the UK as a young 21-year-old. And that was all exciting, but I really followed that path through the digital startups and working actually mostly in design and art direction in TV stations and then in Sydney for many years in advertising. And honestly online marketing and everything was like the poor cousin for many of those years, there weren't many of us who were really specializing in it so it's pretty cool to see where the world is today in marketing.

Amanda Daley: That was my background and I love it, marketing is everything to me and the problem is that my body wasn't keeping up with working in that corporate environment. And I literally used to spend every cent I make and run off whenever I could to go heal myself, because I thought I wasn't enough to keep up in the corporate environment. I was struggling really badly with adrenal fatigue, just all a host of issues really. And I was doing energy healing and yoga training and all the things to try and fix myself and to a degree had life-changing results as many of us I think did have a health crisis to get into health coaching, and then at same time it wasn't working.

Amanda Daley: So when I heard about health coaching it was just like, oh my gosh, this light bulb moment. And so of course I jumped and I trained to be a health coach and rather naively in hindsight thought, "Oh, I'll just throw in my whole advertising career and be a health coach because that's going to be easy, isn't it?"

Amanda Daley: I don't know what I thought, but I was that burnt out really at that time. And I guess when you meant to be on a different path, you really will be nudged and I did leave. That was early 2012 that I left my advertising career and started being a health coach. And the first nine months I had no clients, that was the reality.

Kendra: Yeah. It's amazing that you had all this marketing background and still couldn't figure it out. Right?

Amanda Daley: Could not figure it out. And I guess there's many reasons for that. One, I will say straight off I think is because selling ourselves is so much different.

Kendra: Yes.

Amanda Daley: You mentioned, my background I was winning international awards for people like Coca Cola, not clients we're proud of now, but big international clients.

Amanda Daley: No worries doing that, so why could I not get even a client? I think the first reason is absolutely that selling ourselves is really, really hard when we're not used to that. And then two, of course I was just copying everything that the schools taught me, which was not wrong, I think I just didn't get it or wasn't able to hear it in that way. So it took me quite a while to piece it together doing any training, and there wasn't specialized health coaching training back then either so piecing together things and what did and didn't work.

Amanda Daley: Yeah, but eventually I got it up and running 5k a month was a real for me turning point when I got to that, you could do that consistency, did that for a number of years. Many people were starting to sign up with me secretly to get business coaching because they could see what I was doing in the guise of needing health help. And I really was very anti it for a long time, moving into business coaching, all I wanted to do was help women, with their energy, with their... It sounds so cliche, but step into their power. What else is possible, expansion? And I did think marketing and business was the devil having come from that, I was so resistant for a number of years, but obviously one thing led to another and 2014 I yeah shifted to being... well during that year transitioned to mentoring.

Kendra: Yeah. Yeah. And now you just love the business and the tech. Right?

Amanda Daley: Well I love all of it. Now that was not of it for me, realizing, not shoving out that part of me. I do know marketing very well. I love it, live and breathe it, but at the same time I love that inner journey and I love all the healing work I've done and it was only when I realized that business was really going to be a conduit for me to do that work with women and I do find business is, as I'm sure you would agree, the biggest personal development journey on earth.

Kendra: Oh my gosh, yes. It is, it is.

Amanda Daley: So yeah, when I truly understood that I was still going to be able to do that work with women and realized what I was sitting on too. I wanted to be a health coach and I wanted to make a difference and I realized all these other people didn't know what I did and what I had pieced together. Yeah, so it all came together and I haven't really looked back, I'm still running the same program I started in 2014

Kendra: Really? Oh my gosh, I'm jealous because I lose interest after a year, I drive myself crazy.

Amanda Daley: Yeah.

Kendra: That's amazing. And I love what you said about thinking marketing and business was the devil probably because where you came from and I feel that a lot of health coaches have that same perception because maybe their experience with marketing and sales is like the shitty vacuum salesman who's tried to sell you a broken vacuum or this like in-your-face advertising where the commercials are on high volume and they're shouting things at you. But of course that's not really what we're doing with health coaches but I think there's such a slimy perception around it, that a lot of coaches don't even want to look into it. Right?

Amanda Daley: Totally. Totally. Yeah.

Kendra: And so I want to keep today super actionable because I know we're going to be going through those five steps. And I'd love to jump into that because I talk to so many health coaches and I know most of them are barely clearing like 2k, 3k a month. And like you said, that 5k was such a turning point for you and I know it would be such a turning point for our audience, like that's when you can start paying your bills, it's awesome.

Amanda Daley: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Do you want me to dive in and...

Kendra: Let's just dive in.

Amanda Daley: Yeah. Cool. So look, step number one for me is actually what we started to talk about a little bit, is mindset and particularly, I often talk about money mindset. Now I'll give this a caveat, I personally feel that where I've grown my business to is 80% mindset, but without the 20% marketing... It's chicken and egg, you've really got to know the marketing steps to be able to do that. But I will start with mindset because we started talking about it.

Kendra: I would love to.

Amanda Daley: There's three particular mindsets that really stand out to me having mentored health coaches for the last seven, eight years. The first one is feeling like a fraud, not feeling expert enough. And I think we all felt that way and everyone can feel that way, but I literally see it from every single person who comes to me and they feel like they're alone. They feel like it's just them. So if we can see this as it's a mindset that's going on in you, but it's not you, it can really help us to understand, all right, this is a beginner thing and feeling like a fraud especially I think for health coaches, it's a new industry, it's not well-known. It's not like a personal trainer where everyone knows what it is. For me, part of this is cumulative when we're looking around at what is out there. I'm not a doctor, Oh, I didn't learn to do lab testing, Oh, I can't prescribe.

Amanda Daley: And I'm a big advocate of really understanding health coaching. Keeping in our lane, and that's a lot of the work I do with clients is my beliefs on health coaching are very much about prevention, very much about don't go to a doctor unless you can look them in the eye and say that you are doing movement, you are eating your veggies. And it's amazing how we beat ourselves up and just can't get in the game because of the fraud complex.

Amanda Daley: So that's probably the top one but equally up there for me is the scarcity. There's already too many health coaches out there, there's no room for me. Why would people work with me? All of that not enough-ness. And then I'd say the third one is low value, which is as healers we feel we shouldn't be charging a lot of money for our services. I mean this person's sick, how could I be charging? And ultimately that comes back to our own self-value, right? And how we value health coaching as well. So those mindset pieces to me got to be in place before we even...

Kendra: Oh yes, I totally agree. And it's funny because I saw so much mindset stuff when I was health coaching and sometimes I felt overwhelmed by it. And then when I went into business coaching I'm like, "Oh, it's going to be so different and we're just going to be talking about strategy and marketing and ads and it's going to be so easy." And then ultimately that's exactly what I was faced with. It's the fraud, which is the impostor syndrome and I think, how I see that manifest is coaches thinking they need to keep taking more certifications in more courses, right? They're just like, "Oh I need to take this training." And health-related trainings, they're not doing any business training. They're just like, "I need to take this certification in health and I need to get my gluten practitioner certification and then I need to learn about this and that." And it's like, well that one certification that you have is really all you need.

Amanda Daley: Totally. Totally. Yeah. The chasing of it and it's like trying to fill a hole that just won't go away if we don't look at these pieces.

Kendra: Yeah.

Amanda Daley: Yeah. And I personally, the program that I run is a group program, it's a mastermind program and I won't actually work with beginners one-on-one for the reason that I really believe you've got to be around other people and get, this isn't just you this is how we all feel and, you see Sarah yesterday felt like that and now she's putting herself out there and none of us... I work very hard on my programs for my clients to see, I'm not any different than you, this is what I've done, this is the mindset that it's taken. I just want everyone to know we're all in this together and we can make ourselves almost in a negative way too, special. Like, "Oh, it doesn't work for me," Or, "I'm not enough," and all these things and I just find, yeah working in group has been the biggest factor for me personally but also for clients in moving through that.

Kendra: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, because it's true and I think with new health coaches, they don't even realize that these are mindset blocks, they just hear it as truth. So they're not even aware, they're just like "This is how I'm feeling and this is real and this is truth." When it's like, "No, we all feel those things," and even at this level that me and you are at now, we've been in business for over five, six, seven, you 19 years. We still feel it sometimes.

Amanda Daley: Totally.

Kendra: But we just don't let it hold... We know it's not true. We're like, "Oh hello fear. It's you again. Cool." Like, "I see you but I'm going to keep going."

Amanda Daley: Totally, and who you surround yourself with is so key. I mean coaches, mentors, finding someone who holds a new belief but also the people, your peers and people who are masterminds and things like that. So just yesterday, a lady said she got off one of my free trainings buzzing, and got on the phone to a girlfriend and the girlfriend said, "Ah, health coaches don't make money. Don't go into that trap," like this kind of thing and she was down. And I was like, "Well, if you want me to share, this is my reality all day, every day." We find what we look for, don't we? And who we surround ourselves with is a choice and it's so important.

Kendra: Yeah. And it's so true with friends and family, they don't really understand what a health coach does and really they just want you to be safe. And in their opinion, trying to start your own business and be a health coach, that is not a safe path and not one that they understand. So people saying that to you is really just them trying to protect you, but it's because they don't understand. Right?

Amanda Daley: Of course, so that brings us back right to that fraud. It's a new industry and no one understands health coaching. And that's in my opinion, our job to get that out there and to be speaking up and educating people and that comes with being leaders in a new industry.

Kendra: Yes. And it's true. And I love what you said earlier about feeling like, it's a saturated industry and there's too many. It's actually not, because it hasn't been around for that long. We're all like early adopters of this, so there's lots of space.

Amanda Daley: There's so much space, yeah. Totally.

Kendra: Yeah. Okay. So that's your one step is the mindset. And I love that you start with this because I like to start with this as well because it's just like if you don't have the mindset, you're just going to self-sabotage.

Amanda Daley: Yeah. And really that's what you got to keep doing. Right? So that's why I put it there.

Amanda Daley: So the second to me is having the right business model or by right, finding the right one for you. So many people come in thinking like, I'm just going to start selling single sessions or the six-month package from my school or whatever, and they haven't really mapped out, what do you need? And when we want to look at a 5k a month model, for example, the plan that I share with everyone is three to four days a week, three to four clients, or two to three days a week, two to three clients. Now that's just an example, but what I find from most health coaches is they don't want to be millionaires. They don't want to hustle 24/7 and if you do, great but many of them, trainings or business models focused on, like you said before, 10k months, six figure years, whatever at the beginning are really quite intense and that might not be what you want.

Amanda Daley: So I find people either overshooting or undershooting by trying to sell all these single sessions all the time. So actually getting out your calculator and working out first, what's my blueprint? How many clients am I going to need? How to make $5,000 for example, maybe I need five one-on-one clients a month and then we can work backwards in how you do that. But I find that if we don't work that out, especially a lot of people are working full-time jobs and trying to do this on the side or have kids at home, it again comes back to mindset.

Amanda Daley: It's a little bit like, thinking this won't work. Oh I'm too busy, I don't have time. Just getting in the facts, what is it I'm trying to build? How many clients? What's my financial goal? Where will that fit in my calendar? The structural plan if you like, first.

Kendra: Yeah, I love that. And then I think it can be a big wake up call for people, they're like, "Okay, I want to make 5k a month and I'm selling single sessions for $80 an hour." Do the math and you're like, "Oh I have to do 60 sessions or whatever it is a month and I can't find all those clients, and I can't fit that in my schedule."

Amanda Daley: I should know this number because it's in a webinar that I've done probably 20 times. I'm pretty sure the number is 143 you would need, if you wanted $5,000 from one-on-one sessions a month.

Kendra: Wow. It's impossible, you're going to burn out or you're going to just give up.

Amanda Daley: No wonder our brain in the background, right, is saying, "I can't do this. I can't do this." But you think about it again, when comparing to people like naturopaths and chiropractors, they have that many clients. They see 14 clients a day, times five days a week, times four weeks a month, they do. And then they have to try and get them to come back and it just doesn't make sense. So for me, working in what I call purposeful packages and designing a package that then fits that model is just the important foundation to get first.

Kendra: Yeah, I think that's important. And again, it's not their fault because our audience, they probably only have experience with a naturopath, in terms of someone they've seen. But health coaches aren't naturopaths, and in terms at least in Canada, I don't know what it's like in Australia, but a lot of people's extended health will cover the naturopaths service, so they have that going for them. It's maybe a bit easier for them to attract because there's a lot of people who just aren't going to see a health coach. They're just going to go with what's covered and what's on the list of professions. Right?

Amanda Daley: Yeah.

Kendra: But I also think those types of practitioners burnout.

Amanda Daley: Oh I've got a friend who, top-top naturopath and now many years on she's starting to mentor naturopaths, which is fun. But she tells me, "Amanda, everyone wants to be a health coach." Every naturopath wants to be able to work in packages, this is what they see with the health coach industry coming through. So there's always both sides. And so getting that package right is part of the business model, it's like to me one-on-one. And just on that note, a lot of the schools will teach a six-month program and people come out and most beginners would be terrified to go sell a six-month program when they've never done it before.

Amanda Daley: So we've got to find the sweet spot, right, between single sessions are not going to get results and then you're going to feel like a fraud because you're trying to sell something that you know is not going to get results in one session. I don't want to charge, versus six months and I work with clients to find their own package, however, I do find around the 12-week mark, around $1,000 package, can be quite an average of what people come out with and that matches to the 5k model.

Kendra: Right. And it's a good starting point. And I think $1,000 for a lot of people's going to feel like a lot of money, but at some point it's going to feel like you're going to want to bump that up. Right? And at some point what you charge $1,000 for now you might be charging 5k for in the future. Right?

Amanda Daley: And when you've got that business plan, therefore, okay, you've got the plan, you know you're going to do $1,000, you're not confident now, great. Go out and start at $500 or $400. And I always say I'm much more interested in you knowing the plan and knowing the model than how much money you're making because that will come. Yeah.

Kendra: Yeah. And I think I started at $500, I think initially that was my starting point. And I think you learn from that because your $500 package may not always attract the most committed clients and so I got frustrated. So I started raising my prices and at some point I hit a sweet spot where I was like, "I'm not getting as many people but the people I attract are super committed and they're ready and they actually do the work."

Amanda Daley: Love that. Love that. And then obviously the same model scales up. I've got ladies in my mastermind now, my more advanced, mastermind, making up to $20,000 a month from the same one-on-one and then not burning out and they're not even charging super high. Sometimes they might have to book a month or two in advance and then make that bridge but just again on the business model, I don't normally talk about this, but I just feel to say it right now, stick with the one business model that's probably one of my biggest tips. It works and stop looking for the next magical, maybe I should do an eCourse, maybe I should do this. As long as you like one-on-one coaching, stick with that and then allow your prices to go up and do the inner work.

Kendra: Yeah, I love that. And it's true, yeah. You can do really well with one-on-one, and I think it's a good starting point for all health coaches even if your goal is ultimately to sell a course or a group program. That one-on-one stuff is what gives you confidence, experience and it gives you the ability to get people results so that when you sell your course you're not just talking out your ass. Okay, so number two is business model and what's number three?

Amanda Daley: Number three, I changed what I call this one, today I'm going to call it eyeballs. I just like calling it eyeballs. Basically we'll just start with it's, who's my ideal client? Ideal client to me is something that is taught so wishy washy. It's one of those marketing terms that every school, every marketing course has, but ultimately in a nutshell, to me, target market is pain points and desired outcomes and at least for us to be able to talk too, and understand what someone in pain on, what do they want the outcome from. I honestly don't care a lot about how old they are, what job they have, how many kids they have, et cetera. However, I will say it needs to be one ideal client. And by identifying that we can now make our marketing message magnetic, literally if I'm talking to you right now, like I'm talking to you and you can feel it, whereas if I start talking to... Actually, my words have to stop like if I try to start thinking, "I'm talking to 50 people at once."

Amanda Daley: You actually can't do it energetically or physically. So identifying your ideal client and then every day the activity becomes, how can I be seen by that ideal client and ask them to work with me? So there is a two-step within that. Obviously your foundations as a beginner getting player on this is my ideal client, pain points benefits my one client that I'm speaking to and not being scared like you will attract everyone else and that's okay. But really that question for me, once we get into business every single day when we sit at the desk, how can I be seen by my ideal client and I say ask them for the dance. So, that's where our marketing has to start from, so many people, I can't find my clients. I'm sure you must get the same question.

Kendra: It's crazy.

Amanda Daley: How do I find clients, I just need clients.

Kendra: Who are you talking to? This is honestly I've seen this is the biggest blocking factor with new coaches and what I see as one of the main reasons why they're stuck and they don't know what content to create and they just don't know what they're doing. I would love your thoughts on why do so many health coaches resist it? Is that a scarcity, a fear thing? Like they just resist, resist, resist and they're just like, "No I don't want to turn people away. I want to help everyone. I want to be a health detective. I want to help people optimize wellness." And you're like, "No."

Amanda Daley: I think there's so many reasons why we have resistance, because some people basically just don't want to be coaching. And that's definitely, for me to date at the moment anyway, I'll only work in live programs because I do find that resistance, eCourses, et cetera don't tend to work when you have resistance and we all have it. So I'm not saying that won't change in the future, but at the moment that's why I stick with my high touch coaching. There's so many reasons, some of us actually don't want clients. I was working with a top level VIP client yesterday and every time I said, "Okay put out your marketing," it was the response back to me with some jumble about messaging and I had to say, "What's going on here? You could get clients to..." but she couldn't see herself doing it.

Amanda Daley: It was like bouncing out, "Oh, I haven't got my message. Oh, but my website..." And so we have resistance, let's just be honest about that. But resistance is not there to say, "I'm broken. I need to go fix myself before I can be a health coach." We all have it, we've got to move through it. Sometimes I think it comes back to the fraud, we are scared if we get clients that we're not going to get results, so it's much safer if we get stuck in a tangle of, "Oh I can't... my target market," like that is safe. It's a really safe place to get stuck. Secondly though, I do think I'm back to the scarcity, people have in their mind if they only talk to one person that they're not going to get clients. They think it's too tight and they feel bad, "What if I want to help Harry, and Trudy is my target market?" It's great, you have a magnetic message and Harry will come and you're allowed to work with them. It's just actually impossible to have, what I call a magnetic message, if you're not talking to one person because your marketing and everything should feel like, just like the two of us talking right now, having a coffee together. And the biggest thing I see is people coming into this marketing jumbo words that they've come up with for their target market. I don't even understand what you're... this isn't English.

Kendra: Yeah, I know I call it nutritionists language, it maybe makes sense to other health coaches and nutritionists, but it's like when was the last time you heard someone say, "I really just want to create a mindful routine so that I can be the best version of myself."

Amanda Daley: That's the third thing I was going to say, when you ask the question, why do people get stuck there? I always say as health coaches we're a little bit smarty pants. What I mean by that, is we've the training and we know that when you say weight loss, you really have an issue with your relationship, or you really are stressed, and as health coaches... Or maybe we've done mindfulness and we've done all the inner healing work and we want to jump there. And so what happens is we start making these packages and target market that sound like you said, "I'm here to empower women into their most enlightened something." It's like, "Huh?" You and I probably want that but I'm not going to pay for that.

Amanda Daley: This is why I say target market and messaging is more old school one-on-one marketing pain points, desired outcomes. I want the pill, look at all my oils or whatever, what have I got? Like the energy pill, the insomnia pill, this is what we buy. This is how we end... So I always say you need that business brand that is actually boring and then we can see you. We do see if you're putting out content or showing up and getting in front of these eyeballs with your marketing, I'm going to see that your heart-centered. I'm going to see that you're about empowerment. I'm going to see that you're holistic and not a scam. We do see you in your personal brand, when it comes to messaging, people will buy something that they're in pain for, full-stop. And that needs to be the match for this ideal client.

Kendra: Yeah, it's all about meeting them where they're at, right? Like they just started experiencing insomnia and sure, you know that they need to balance their blood sugar, eat breakfast and stop looking at screens at night. But right now all they know is I can't sleep and I just want you to help me sleep. Right? You really just have to lead with that and then your content and obviously your paid offerings are going to educate them on these other things in your presence. But yeah, you just can't make your niche the way that you get them there, it needs to be exactly what they're experiencing.

Amanda Daley: Absolutely. Yeah.

Kendra: Yeah. Okay. So number three is niche and ideal client, which is so important and I love talking about that. So what's number four?

Amanda Daley: Number four is what I call, ask for the dance. My accent is probably funny how I say that.

Kendra: I love your accent.

Amanda Daley: Even here in Australia, they can't understand it. So look, I find in the model that I teach is three boxes. So you've got be seen by your eyeballs, like I said. And the middle one is your discovery session or your sales call. And the third one is your delivery of your program. But how do we get from, I'm seen by new eyeballs, which to me is 80% of your work every day. But what I specifically said before if you listened, was how can I be seeing my ideal client and ask for the dance? And that's the bridge into getting on a call.

Amanda Daley: A coaching business is actually really, really simple, there's nothing more than those three boxes. And actually your job is just to get people on the phone... Is pretty much the job now. People go off and they make websites and flyers and all these things because they're hoping that will get people on the phone and they're doing all these long steps. So actually ask for the dance really needs to be heard, as in ask people to get on the phone, ask people if they want to have a conversation. And it's not 2012 like when I started out and you started out a similar time, where we could just do a blog post with, "Hey send me... If you'd like to get on a call," now we need to still put the call to actions in our social media, and in our pieces like "If you'd like to book a discovery call, and let me know."

Amanda Daley: But we are in the age of DMs and reaching out to people and having authentic relationships. That doesn't mean jumping into someone's direct message and spamming them with, "Hey come work with me." But if you see someone engaging in your posts, you see someone watching your videos, et cetera, start a conversation, get to know them and Instagram's wonderful for this. We do have to go that extra step of actually asking and when you say before, people have the resistance about eyeballs, I see more resistance on this. It's like people just can't hear it.

Amanda Daley: And this is the number one area I've seen when people go that extra relationship building and actually say, "Would you like to get on the phone for call with me?" And to me when we're looking back at the marketing model, 5k a month. Okay you want a client a week? How many discovery sessions? Maybe two discovery sessions a week. That's your job. It might not sound very sexy, but if you're working for me, your job when you get to your desk every day is to book me those two calls a week. And I do find people doing the marketing, and feel like they're being seen but they're not asking.

Kendra: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I see that a lot. And I see it with free opt-ins, I see it with all kinds of things. It's like they say it once and then they never say it again and people aren't even aware of that there's this option to take the next step. You've really got to have something there for your hot leads, so people who are like, they've seen your content, they like what you're doing, they like your personality, they want to buy, but they just don't know how and then they forget, they're gone.

Amanda Daley: Totally. And we are in business, the same plan I said yesterday I was talking to resistance, what was going on and of course it came up like, "Oh my family and friends might think I've been talk about my business too much." At some stage we've got to make peace with that, if you want to be in business, you're going to have to market. And I know that none of us necessarily got into health coaching to be marketers but to find the love for that I think, to find the creativity for that and the piece around it. God, the impact we could be having. And if we say we want to be helping others through our work, we can be doing that through our social and content we create all day, every day, if we truly do what everyone tells me, "I just want to help people." If you do, then go be of service with this content and getting visible and asking people, "Can I help you?" Because they're sitting at home, wanting to be helped.

Kendra: Yeah. And I love that you said creativity in marketing because I find marketing super creative, it's one of the only ways I feel like I'm creative because I don't have any other outlets for it. So I really enjoy it for that. And so I think you just got to find like, you know where your superpower is in terms of content creation and then go spread your message. Go help those people. Go give them value.

Amanda Daley: Absolutely. And we don't need big audiences. I know a lot of things out there talk about needing to build a big list I think you do if you're going to do an online program or something like that, but honestly we all have even just on our personal Facebook page or [inaudible 00:33:09] of things. We don't need big numbers to get two people on the phone a week, we just don't.

Kendra: No, we don't. And I love that and I talk about that a lot, especially these days because maybe 10 years ago, sure it was not that hard to build a massive email list and following because all these algorithms weren't in place and it wasn't as crowded and all this. But these days unless you have a big budget, it's really hard to do that. So it's really about having a quality lesson and just to give the audience some context. I've talked about this a bit before, but I think I had less than 2,500 people combined when I made my first six figures in business and that was across email, Instagram and Facebook. It wasn't that much. It's really not that much, I think anyone can do that.

Amanda Daley: Yes, yeah. And obviously the marketing pieces do need to start coming in of going back to meetings, back to the eyeballs. Even in my advanced mastermind still pretty much 80% is how do we get you seen by more? And one of my top tips there is how can you tap into someone else's existing audience of that [inaudible 00:34:08] can start from scratch and getting back to this, where are the clients, ask a genuine question, where are they? They're following Kendra. Okay, well how can we partner with Kendra? How can we get in front of Kendra's audience? I think we over complicate it, it is basically, can I be seen by my ideal client and then ask for the dance, so that step three and four.

Kendra: Yeah, and I love that you talk about collaboration because I think it maybe can come back to that scarcity mindset. The idea of there's too much competition, like what she does means that I don't get it as much, but it's like there's really room for everyone. There's so many people online and what makes you unique is really your personality and there's no one else who was a personality just like you. So we can collaborate, do this podcast together even though we have similar audiences and still benefit. Right?

Amanda Daley: Oh absolutely. You know, one of the things I've always been proud of in my stage one mastermind is I've never seen at least to my awareness, any sense of competition in there. But I definitely do see when people move on to the more advanced implementation stage that I have. By that level because obviously it takes a while to get your foundations and by year two of your business, I find it's the collaborations between them. Again, you don't need the whole world just a small group of women and I'm sure you have the same in yours, start sharing a podcast with each other and then get each other on as guests. You don't need to even know anyone else. And I see this work pretty well with Facebook live shows, for people starting up. I've got a beautiful woman who actually has a voice impediment and therefore was going to leave because she thought, "I can't do videos and I can't do content," and we set her up with a Facebook live show and she just interviews like all the other ladies in the mastermind. And she's in her element because she doesn't have to be the focus on her vocals for a full hour. And so the collaboration and there's just no need for a sense of competition and I think if anyone does feel that, that'd be a key thing. It's a sense of resistance too, I think, so.

Kendra: Yeah. Oh, I love that. That's such a cool story. Yeah. I mean, really, there is something for everyone and if people don't resonate with you, that's okay, they can go resonate with someone else. Like not everyone is meant for you. And that's okay. It's just like in real life, not everyone's going to like you, you can't be friends with everyone.

Amanda Daley: I remember a mentor saying to me once when I was getting a bit triggered by that, like so many new coaches and so many whatever, and she was like, "You don't want all those people. Amanda," and it really gave me a sense of, "Oh yeah, like we don't want every person in the world." It's like we just want our dream clients, just stay in your own lane. Like I said, get magnetic in your marketing, get really clear. This is where I want to work, get culture and boundaries in that and you don't need everyone. And my little joke too, paraphrasing what she said there, is you probably don't want to work with everyone anyway.

Kendra: Yeah, it's very true.

Amanda Daley: Let other people be the right coach for that person.

Kendra: That's awesome. And so that's number four. And that is, I guess the dance, to get people on the phone, right?

Amanda Daley: Basically. Yeah.

Kendra: All right.

Amanda Daley: So that leads me to step number five, soulful sales and systems. So I think most people are terrified of that sales call and it's definitely something I think, I don't want to quote wrong, but a number of the health coaching schools I believe still do teach something called a health history or something similar as a way of getting on getting someone to buy from you and a health history will not sell. There's a reason that there's a resistance to them. It's valuable information, I think it can be great in session one of your program or something like that, but a sales call, it's soulful when you don't coach, and this is backwards for people.

Amanda Daley: The minute that you coach, you're actually robbing someone of the opportunity, which is supposed to be a discovery of, am I ready to transform, and are you the coach for me? To me, that's the only energy we want in a discovery call. Is this client ready to transform and is this relationship right?

Amanda Daley: It's simple to say, I get it because we bring all our baggage and we need to pay our rent, we need to pay our this. So we bring our money stories to the call and then we bring our, am I good enough in. Often what can happen is we start coaching to prove ourselves, especially as new health coaches, or we start blushing off a whole lot of information to be expert. And we're making that about, "Oh, it's all about me. Am I good enough?" As opposed to a sales call should be 100% about the potential client, almost to the point where you don't even have a script, almost, I do have scripts. And is it true from the energetic process that I take someone through that I teach, which is allowing someone to go high into their dreams.

Amanda Daley: Most people live in what I call the gray zone, and they're too scared and they're trapped. Take someone on that journey, what do you really want? Have you even thought about it? And then take them low and be honest, what's this pain actually doing? Most people, again, shove it down, pretend it's not there and as we open up that we can see what's really going on for the person and if they want to transform. That in itself to me is one of the most valuable things you could gift someone. So you're still giving, you're still giving value. And then the simple question after that is, is now the right time? Are you willing to change? You want to know all of that before there's any conversation of your program or anything like that.

Amanda Daley: And this is hard for me to succinctly put in one point but ultimately what I'm saying is have a way of doing sales that will actually lead to someone making a commitment in themselves, not regurgitating what happened to their parents' health or their current stomach problems. We'll get there but really one of the key pain points... Back to sales messaging, right? Key pain points, key desired outcome. And do they want to go on that transformation? Is it with you?

Kendra: Yeah, I love that you really want to find the right people because if they're not committed and you sell them into your program, then they're not going to get results. You're going to be banging your head against the wall and it literally kills your soul when you have this client who you want to help and they can't help themselves. Right?

Amanda Daley: Yeah. And we've got to be really clear on that as well I think, that as health coaches, I think we all are in so much integrity of what we give. Most people will over-give but one of the biggest healing pieces of my journey was really understanding, that I can never make my client do that work. I cannot be responsible for that. Like in the early days of business coaching, myself and my assistant used to not sleep after a call. We're trying to work out Sally's issue, and why is Sally's business... And I really have come to a place of peace and I hope I can pass that to everyone sooner rather than later. As coaches, we're not meant to be God, we're not meant to be someone's savior, we're not meant to do the work for them and we want clients who want to change. It's part of that first call, if that's not there, why would you put yourself through that? It's going to loop you back to step one of feeling like a fraud and terrified of getting on coaching calls. Because of course, we've got to give everything and of course, we've got to do our best as a coach. But more often than not, we're actually sabotaging by trying to solve everything, especially on that first call instead of leaning back and seeing, "Hey, do you want to make a change?"

Kendra: Yeah, I love it. And I think I've started calling them... I'd tell people don't even call them sales calls, they're just qualifying calls or enrollment calls. You're just qualifying this person to see if they're going to be the right fit for your program and if you can actually help them. But I love what you said about, we're not their saviors. We can't save our clients, they have to save themselves, we're just here to guide them. And I think it's important to make that really clear that when we work together, I'm going to be giving you guidance, but you're only going to get the result if you actually do the work, right?

Amanda Daley: Totally. And not being afraid, once you are coaching. If someone's not getting the results, don't blame yourself, speak to it. Call it out, I mean in a loving way that, "Hey Sarah, how are you going so far? You know I've noticed that some of the pieces of homework that I've given you, you haven't necessarily taken action on. Do you want to go back and review why?" That is very different than sitting at home going, "Oh my God, Sarah's not losing weight." Well, why? The only reason can be that she's not taking action or don't take responsibility, and then lean in and say, "What else could we do here together?" You're going to be so much more connected in hearing what's needed, than if you're in your head going, "Oh my God, I'm not good enough, she's going to leave. She's going to..."

Kendra: Yeah.

Amanda Daley: But again, I know it's easier said than done, start with a really soulful sales process and systems. The three systems that I always believe need to be part of that are, how to book calls, how to take payment, how to do a contract. And I think just by having those smart pieces set up in the background, then we can relax when, "Oh my God, the shock, someone actually wants to buy from me," the first client, and then we're like, "Oh, how do I do this?" If you can just have those there, you can feel supported, you can trust the process and to me too, there's an energetic flow in that. When your pipeline is set up, you can just, "Okay, let's get on the phone and I know what to do, if they're the right person for me."

Kendra: I love that. That's awesome. Okay, so let's just quickly review those steps. I'm like already like forgotten them. So let's go through them just so the audience remembers and then we'll let them know how they can get in touch with you.

Amanda Daley: Absolutely. So first step is mindset, specifically the three, the fraud, the scarcity, the low value for health coaches, and who you surround yourself with. So mindset, mindset, mindset. Step two is business model, getting really clear, how much do you want to make? How many clients is that going to take? How many hours a week? Where's that going to fit in your schedule? Does that fit for you and your values and your lifestyle? Step number three is all about those eyeballs. So identifying the ideal client and then every day, how can I be seen by more eyeballs, into step four and ask for the dance. So step four is really about asking, leaning in, having the conversations, not waiting for someone to engage with you, you're going to them. And then step five was the soulful sales and systems.

Kendra: Awesome, I love it. I think that's great. And I hope this helps everyone make 5k a month. And I just see in her notes that you have a freebie for our audience. Hey?

Amanda Daley: Yeah, we've actually set up a page for you. So @amandajdaley.com that's the letter J in the middle of my name there, AmandaJdaley.com/360, we have set up some of my top health coach goodies for your audience.

Kendra: Awesome. Thank you so much. And I guess so your website is just AmandaJdaley.com and then your social media was Amanda Jane Daley. So we'll put that all down in the show notes for everyone if you want to connect with Amanda and have her help you because, guess what? I think everyone needs a coach and mentor.

Amanda Daley: Absolutely. I love meeting any health coach. I'm so passionate about where this industry is meant to go, and any questions anyone's got or anything at all. I also have a Facebook group, Healthy Wealthy Society, which is where I mostly hang out. So I might mention that, because that's if anyone just wants to ask everyday questions about health coaching, or I know a lot of people probably aren't even in health coaching yet. We get a lot of people in there just wanting to check out the industry. So yeah, it's my favorite place to hang out.

Kendra: That's awesome, I actually think I'm in that group. I just really have not engaged in there in a while, but I think I'm in there.

Amanda Daley: I'll keep an eye out for you.

Kendra: Well thank you so much, that was super valuable. That's really, really good info for the audience. So definitely go follow Amanda, everyone. And thanks guys for listening. And we will be back in one week with our quick episode, our Biz Bomb series where we give you a super juicy tip for your business and then your brain explodes because it's so good. So we'll see you in a week and thanks for joining guys.

Why You Must Prioritize BEFORE You Create a Plan with Kathryn Hofer

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It’s 2020 – a new year, a new decade, a new plan to tackle your business goals and excel! But where do you start when it comes to planning? We have Kathryn Hofer joining us on today’s 360 Health Biz Podcast episode to chat all about planning for your life and your business.

In this episode, Kathryn discusses:
- approaches to planning, including the next step and project planning
- determining what your maintenance tasks are (no, this isn’t changing the oil in your car..though you should do that a few times a year)
- “no means not now” and creating boundaries in business
- the 2x rule when it comes to learning tech stuff
- time management tips
- planning as an action word and creating the framework to activate

Kathryn Hofer is the founder of Modern Planner, an online community designed to take the dread out of planning and help people live more intentionally. Lovingly referred to as the “champion of boundaries and guilt-free intentional living,” Kathryn is passionate about helping overwhelmed and overworked people slow down, create space for what matters, and make meaningful progress toward their goals. When she isn’t hosting a Planning Party or connecting with the members of her community, you can probably find Kathryn hanging out with her family, spending time outside or curled up with a good book.

Check out the full episode show notes on 360 Health Biz Podcast.

Scarcity Mentality & How It’s Blocking Your Business Success (AND 4 WAYS TO CHANGE IT NOW!)

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"Your beliefs form your reality and your reality confirms your beliefs." - Louise Hay

When I read "You Can Heal Your Life" book by Louise Hay it really made me aware of my beliefs and mindset and in my new video, I'm going to give you four ways that you can shift from a scarcity mentality to one of abundance.

So let's start with what is a scarcity mentality. In the simplest terms, it is the belief that there is never enough. Whether it's money, food, emotions, or something else, it is this belief from our core that there will never be enough to go around. As a result of that mentality, your actions stem from a place of lacking rather than abundance. So you might complain about never having enough money or never having enough clients. Maybe you never have enough energy, or you feel like there are never enough resources to accomplish your goals.

Likely there is something that has happened in your life that has led you to develop this mentality or this belief system. So maybe your parents always struggled with money growing up, or maybe there was never enough food on the table. And you have likely picked up this mentality from someone else. There's a good chance that you downloaded this into your system before you were even old enough to be aware that it was happening. Regardless of where it came from, if it's there, it's a problem. This action is going to dictate your actions in business, and it's always going to confirm what you believe to be true, which is that there is never enough.

So here are four ways to get to abundance mindset:

1) Change your internal dialogue
If you find yourself saying, "I just can't make money from health coaching" or "There aren't enough people who will be able to afford the cost of my services" - those are scarcity mentalities. This type of language is actually a pretty big deal, and it's going to have a massive effect on your business success and your ability to attract clients and money. So you need to switch your language by being conscious and aware. Tapping into emotional freedom is actually a great place to start if you want to shift your mindset. A must read for health coaches who are struggling with their abundance mindset is Tapping Into Wealth by Margaret Lynch. It's very powerful and it'll help you work through your scarcity mentality and shift into that abundance mindset.

2) Gratitude
Even if we're struggling in business, we still have so much to be grateful for. And the studies have been pretty clear on this. People who have a regular gratitude practice will exhibit better emotional and mental wellbeing. So be very intentional in giving gratitude in your business and make a conscious effort to write down the things about your business that make you grateful each and every day. I like to journal in the morning by writing down what I'm grateful for in my business and personal life in what I call a professional gratitude list. Even though we all get down in business sometimes, with this gratitude list you can cycle back to it and remember that you have a lot to be grateful for.

3) Stop hanging out with people who have a scarcity mentality
If you are hanging out with people who are negative and who have that scarcity mindset, then that is going to suck you in with them. So you need to remove yourself from that energy and start surrounding yourself with people who have that abundance mentality, and who think more positively. This is why it's so, so important for solopreneurs or health coaches who work by themselves in their offices to have a boss community. Because a lot of our friends and family don't really understand what we're going through.

4) Set realistic mini goals
When you set your goals too high or too big, it's really easy to fail, which then will confirm your scarcity mentality. So it's important to set attainable, small goals on a weekly or even a daily basis. So every time you accomplish even these small mini goals, you should celebrate, and subconsciously this is actually going to tell your mind that you have choice, possibility, and abundance. So the journal that I love to use is called the Best Self Journal because it allows you to set 13 week goals and allows you to write down all the tasks and mini goals that you need to accomplish in order to achieve that bigger goals.

I hope this was helpful, and I cannot wait for you to attract so much abundance into your life.

Product Launch Timeline for Your Group Health Coaching Program (WHEN TO LAUNCH A GROUP PROGRAM)

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In my five years as a health coach, I created and successfully launched five different group programs! And in my experience doing this and also from the fact that I also launched a few failures, I have learned there is an optimal timeline that's really important for you to stick with if you want to successfully launch and monetize a group program with your health coaching clients. And trust me, you do want to make money when you launch your group program because they are a ton of work.

When it comes to group coaching programs, I see a lot of health coaches jumping the gun, meaning that they are creating and launching a group program before they are ready and before they have actually validated it. This results in limited sales that leads to frustration, poverty, and even something I call "launch trauma". In order for you to be successful launching a group program, you need to make sure you are in the right place in your business journey or there is a very likely chance that this isn't going to be successful for you at all.

In order for you to determine if you're in the right place to even start considering launching a group program, let's sit down and answer the following questions.
1) are you working with private clients?
2) have you been working with clients for at least a year?
3) have you generated at least 10 testimonials from clients who have seen results in your signature coaching program?
4) are you generating at least 4 to $5,000 per month with coaching clients?
5) are you actively working on building your email list?
If the answer is no to any of these questions, that tells me that you're probably not ready to launch a group program, even if some other expert has told you otherwise.

If you haven't worked with any private clients and you don't have experience, that means you haven't gotten a result for anyone. That also means you don't actually know the questions that your ideal client is asking. You don't know what areas they need the most help in and the areas that they are challenged with more than others. I know there are so many different online experts out there that just rave about the financial gains of doing a group program. But if you don't have the experience, if you don't really know your ideal client and the questions and concerns that they have, then you don't really have a leg to stand on. In the journey to launching an online group program successfully, you need to start working with private clients. You need to validate your method. You need to get them results. You need to tweak your program and make it the absolute best before you even consider launching a group program.

I truly believe you need to be working with clients privately for at least a year before considering launching a group program. Because not only does it give you the time to get experience, to increase your confidence, to learn the things about your client, but also it gives your clients enough time to actually experience the result. Because as you know with health, it can be complex. There can be a lot of trial and error. There are people you're going to work with who are going to get results slower. And if you don't work with people for long enough, then you don't really know all the trials and tribulations that can come up as you try to work with someone to optimize their health. So I would say a year is enough time to see the deficiencies in your method, and there's always going to be some, none of us start out perfect, so that you can tweak them, make it better, and ultimately create a better method that you can actually sell as a group program.

Next we're going to discuss testimonials. Testimonials are so important. Think of the last time you bought something off Amazon. You probably scrolled down to the reviews and you looked in and saw what other people were saying. And if you saw a higher amount of bad reviews versus good reviews, then there's a good chance that you decided not to buy that product and you started looking for something different, right? The same goes for your signature coaching program. You need to prove to the buyer that you can actually get someone a result. And when it comes to testimonials, the more the better. But I think at least 10 is the minimum you need to have before considering launching a group program.

Now if you're totally confused what I mean when I keep saying signature coaching program, don't worry. Check out my video How to Create a Signature Coaching Program for Your Health and Wellness Business to learn more.

In order to be successful in launching a group program, you want to have some level of financial stability. This is because it takes the exact same amount of your energy and time to sell something that is $300 versus something that is $3,000. So if you don't have financial stability and you're struggling to pay your bills, a group coaching program is not the right way to go because it's going to take you so much more work and so much more effort to actually generate enough money to feel financially comfortable. But if you focus on working with higher-ticket coaching clients, then it's way easier to hit the amount of money that you need to pay your bills, have a little bit extra, and to feel comfortable with your financial status.

My last point is about having an active email lists or actively working on building one. This is incredibly important. When we sell a group coaching program, because it is a lower priced program, it's always going to be less than your private coaching program. So you're going to need to sell that program to more people. You don't need to have a massive list to be successful selling a group program. I only had 500 or 600 people on my email list, and I made a few thousand dollars, when I launched my first group program. But you do need to have a list to have people to sell to. But the success of you launching a group program and then future group programs is directly correlated with the size and the health of your email list. So if you don't have a list or you're not actively out there trying to build your list, then I would say this is not a great time to launch a group program. I would continue to work with private clients and focus your efforts on building that email list. And if you're interested in growing an email list but you don't know where to start, you can check out my video called How to Grow an Email List Fast as a Health Coach

The truth is there is no exact timeline formula when it comes to launching a group program. Me personally, I think it took me about two years before I launched my first group program. So it's going to be a little bit different for everyone, and that's okay. But if you follow this timeline, you will be on track and you're way more likely to have success when it comes the time for you to launch a group program.

How to Create a Signature Program in Your Wellness Business (THAT FILLS YOUR BANK ACCOUNT!)

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Let's start at the beginning. What is a signature program? A signature program is what your business is known for. It is a program that is branded to your specific niche that you sell to your ideal client. And remember, without something to sell, you don't have a business at all. You may have a brand, you may have an online presence, but unless you are selling something, you actually don't have a business.

I see a ton of coaches making the huge mistake of selling one off sessions or single sessions. So basically they are exchanging an hourly rate for something like a 60 minute session with no commitment from the client to go any further than that 60 minute session. This is not a successful business model for health coaches. And that is because typically as a health coach, you are actually not licensed, which means that people's extended health benefits will not cover your services. One off sessions actually require very minimal commitment from your client, which means that you have way less of an opportunity to actually get them results and to actually prove the method that is going to get them that result. And without the ability to get your clients results and ultimately get testimonials, you don't have a proven method, which means that no one's really going to seek you out for anything.

If we look at things from a money perspective, getting enough clients in the door to actually pay your bills and have a little bit extra enjoy your life is virtually impossible. Let's say you want to hit $5,000 a month in your business and let's just say you charge $100 an hour for a one hour session. That means you need to sell 51 hour sessions every single month in order to hit that $5,000 a month goal. And remember, when you sell one off sessions, there's very little commitment on the part of the client involved. So there's a good chance that many of those people who you are seeing in that month, you may not see them again at all, or maybe not again for several months. And that means you need to bring a lot of new clients into the door and have to work really hard on marketing to attract those clients to you.

If this hasn't convinced you yet, here are 3 reasons why you NEED a signature program.

1) it gives your business the ability to sell something that is way more valuable than just simply a one off session. It gives your brand an identity and something that you are known for.
2) it requires your clients to pay a much higher price point, which means ultimately they are going to be more committed to working with you, which means you have more opportunity to actually get them a result and actually get those testimonials that will help you bring more clients in the door.
3) you actually have to get way less clients to hit that 5K a month, which means that you are less likely to be overwhelmed, you're less likely to burn out, and you don't have to juggle a million clients at once. And if this sounds good to you, give me a hell yes in the comments below.

Okay, so let's discuss how you actually create a signature program. So first things first you need to ask yourself the question, what is the ONE thing that I solve for my ideal client? Not five things and not 10 things, not 15 things. So you want to think of the one result that you could get for your ideal client that they would consider a huge win and they would rave about to all their friends.

When it comes to naming your signature program, you want to make the name of the program very specific so that the name speaks for itself. So when you say the name of your program, people know exactly what type of result they're actually going to get from that program.

The next thing you want to do is you want to determine how long your signature program is going to be. Now there is no secret sauce for the ideal length of a signature program, but don't make it too long or too overwhelming because that could actually turn off your ideal client from purchasing. I find three to six months tends to be best for a signature program. If you're doing just standard traditional health coaching, three months works pretty well, but if you are a type of coach who's running labs, then I would probably go on the longer end of that maybe more four to six months to allow for the time it takes to send out labs and receive results. And of course some of the errors that come along with working with labs.

And the final thing you want to do is determine what your signature program is actually going to include. How many sessions will you offer? What types of tools and resources will you give to your clients? What type of support are they going to receive from you? And don't make the mistake of adding too many sessions into your program to try to increase the value. People are actually pretty busy these days and they worry less about the time they get in a program. What they care about most is the results.

All right, so now go create your bad ass signature coaching program! 

Avoiding Entrepreneurial Burnout (& Identifying it in Your Clients) w/ Dr. Kristina Hallett

WATCH THE EPISODE

LISTEN TO THE EPISODE

Tools mentioned in this episode:

Provider Resilience Application that gives healthcare providers tools to guard against burnout and compassion fatigue as they help them. Available for all devices and free.

Breathe2Relax Application that is a portable stress management tool which provides detailed information on the effects of stress on the body and instructions. Available for all devices and free.

- Grab our FREE Practitioner Tool Kit to get a list and review of all the platforms Kendra and Christine use personally in their businesses to save time, money and generate consistent income.

- Grab Dr. Hallett’s FREE guide, “10 Steps to Being Stress-Smart & Becoming Your Own Best Friend.” http://bit.ly/ownbestfriend

About Kristina Hallett:

Board Certified Clinical Psychologist and Executive Coach, Kristina Hallett combines science and soul for practical, fast results. She uses her decades of psychological experience and down-to-earth approach to facilitate progress and change. Her mission is to bring the latest scientific research to practical application, helping people feel more empowered and productive. Kristina is also an associate professor, speaker, author, and co-host of the Be Awesome Podcast, featured on Mental Health News Radio. She has been featured widely in the media, including U.S. News and World Report, NBC News, Reader’s Digest, Huffington Post, Medium, Bustle, and many other outlets.

Contact Kristina Hallett:
https://www.facebook.com/OwnBestFriend8SimpleSteps/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristina-hallett-phd-abpp-ab307021/
https://www.instagram.com/wisdom_healing/
https://twitter.com/KHallettPhDABPP


Transcript:

Christine:              Alright everyone, hello and welcome to this episode of the 360HealthBiz podcast, and today you will have me on my own without Kendra, who is actually lounging in a hammock in Costa Rica at the moment. Bless her, not jealous at all, but I do have wonderful company. I have Dr. Kristina Hallett with me and we are going to talk all things burnout. So today is going to be a continuous education episode for you guys. And so let me introduce Kristina very quickly to you. So she's a board certified clinical psychologist and executive coach, a combination which I adore. She combined signs and so on for practical fast results. Killer combo, the only thing that works in my opinion, she uses decades of psychological experience and down to earth approach to facilitate progress and change. Her mission is to bring the latest scientific research to practical application, helping people feel more empowered and productive. Kristina is also an associate professor, speaker, author, and co-host of Be Awesome podcast featured on Mental Health News Radio. She has also been featured widely in the media, including US news and World Report, NBC News, Readers Digest, Huffington Post, Medium Bustle, and many other outlets. So we are here with a pro. I am super excited. Kristina, welcome so much to our episode here.

Kristina:                 Oh, thank you Christine. I am delighted to be here. This is so much fun. I love is. How wrong is it that I say, I love talking about burnout and compassion fatigue, right? Because...

Christine:              Most of us, we love talking about poop as well, right?

Kristina:                 Exactly. Yes, exactly. So this is one of my sort of like, you know, Hashtag banished burnout, right?

Christine:              Yes.

Kristina:                 As long as knowledge is power and the more we know and that's so true in all of the work you do. You know, I, I have looked through, we've talked about your work and it's so impressive how you really look to bring in every element of a person's functioning. So I'm thrilled to talk with you.

Christine:              Yep, absolutely. And that's what we're going to do today when we talk about burnout. So it's going to be a fantastic episode. I'm really looking forward to this. Now, before we start though, for everyone who's listening, as always, we're going to start with a tech tip and Kristina is actually going to share her favorite app today, and as always, don't forget to surf over to iTunes. Leave us a five-star review if you're like this, if you like our guests, just give us some love and you can also support the show and become a patron of the show. It's all on our website, 360healthbizpodcast.com. So Kristina, Kendra and I, we love geeking out on tech, right, like we love digital business and you have an app that you wanted to talk to us about today. And for those of you who are listening on the podcast, if you actually surf over to the blog, we are recording this and video form and you can actually see her demonstrating this, so just a quick note on the side. But without further ado, let us know what is your secret kind of weapon that you have in your arsenal.

Kristina:                 Oh, and there's so many of them, so it was a little hard to just pick one. But today I'm going to tell you about an app, and it's free and it's available on Android, IOS, like you name it, you can get it, it's free. And it was ultimately developed in the US as part of the, Department of Defense. It was developed for the military. There's a whole suite of apps and they're all ones that I use. And there's tons of research that went into it and they are completely appropriate for all civilians as well. So I use these in my executive coaching across the board. I also tell my students about them because I'm teaching in a graduate clinical mental health counseling program. So this is number one what providers need, and it's called Provider Resilience. What could be better? So I'm going to tell you what's on it so that listeners can hear, but I really do encourage you to go to the video because some of this you just want to see. Open up the app right at the top is a, it's like a half rainbow, and it's your overall resilience rating. And so for those of you who are watching, there it is. That's the resilience. Okay? Now I have these set up purposely, I have a separate one, so I have two of them. This one I use for demonstration purposes, you'll see why. So that half rainbow goes from low where it's red, because we usually associate red with warning signs, all the way up to green, which is good. Love that. Love green.

Christine:              Yep.

Kristina:                 And so, all of these different components that I'll describe are a part of this app and they make up your overall resilience rating. So right underneath that you can put in, this cracks me up, time since your last vacation.

Christine:              Oohh.

Kristina:                 That's one of the keys for burnout, right? So in my demo, this is not the truth. This is not the truth, but I'm going to tell you that according to the app, since my last vacation, it's been two years, one month, 10 days, 23 hours and five minutes.

Christine:              I would die.

Kristina:                 That would be so bad, right? So not only is that a ridiculous amount of time, but I love the specificity.

Christine:              Yeah.

Kristina:                 It literally counts down to minutes since your vacation. So you can just add in when you're most recent vacation has been and then keep track of it because as providers, that's one of the things that we often forget to do.

Christine:              Yeah.

Kristina:                 We're so busy taking care of other people and hello, we need to walk our talk and do this.

Christine:              Yes.

Kristina:                 So there's a vacation clock, there's also a section called burnout and there's a whole burnout scale that you can do, and one of the tools in this. This is why there's so much to this one app. That's why I'm like, it's just phenomenal. I talk about this in presentations I give across the US and internationally and literally people are pulling out their phones and downloading it because it's, there's so much in it. So there's something called the pro-qual, and that's the professional quality of life scale. And it's really nice to have this as a measure. It's a nice measure. It's a self-report. It's about 26 questions, and as you fill it out and then scores it for you and you get three scores, you get a compassion satisfaction score, a burnout score, and a secondary traumatic stress score.

Christine:              Nice

Kristina:                 That gives you your overall pro-qual or your professional quality of life. So we know that as soon as you have, and I'm sort of getting into what we're talking about here, but it's all about the app, so tech and talk at the same time.

Christine:              Yeah.

Kristina:                 We have to have some marker, and then we continue to do this and we compare the marker so we can see, are we making progress? Are we doing better? Which one of those particular skills is moving in which direction? Right. And it's all right here. So see down here is the pro-qual. That's, that's the pro-qual. Again, these are demonstrations but each one of them gives you a little rainbow. And it tells you, in this case, apparently, oh this is so bad. It's been 838 days since my last update of the pro-qual. So it keeps you accountable as well.

Christine:              Ops.

Kristina:                 I know, but again this is for demonstration, so I'm aloud.

Christine:              Yeah.

Kristina:                 Now it has another section called Resilience Builders and Resilience Killers. And so it's got examples. And so examples of resilience builders are, did you take a short walk?

Christine:              Yeah.

Kristina:                 Did you perform at debts? Stretching or isometrics? Things like that, and you can put in your own something that you've identified as a resilience builder. And then when you go to resilience killers, that you're going to love this. Did you skip lunch?

Christine:              Ops.

Kristina:                 Have you eaten junk food? Did you come to work sick today? Right? So it's got all of those different things, and then it brings you back to your dashboard. Now there's also tools. One of these tools that cracks me up is called, 'Remind me why I do this.'

Christine:              Hilarious.

Kristina:                 You also get a graph of your pro-qual results and a graph of your burnout results.

Christine:              Mmhmm

Kristina:                 And then, my, one of my, I would say this is my favorite, but they're all my favorite. There's a section on physical exercise and what it is, it's the directions on how to do various chair yoga poses.

Christine:              [inaudible] I love that.

Kristina:                 Yes. And as you just simply scroll through, it gives you different exercises and I particularly love this. Overall, my approach for all of us as professionals is that we need things that we can do in about two or less.

Christine:              Yeah.

Kristina:                 And many of these things we can do either sitting at our desk or literally when we take the bathroom break, right? And often there are so many things about counteracting burnout and working towards resilience that we say, 'oh, I just don't have the time for that.'It's going to, like we think about, 'oh, take me half an hour to get to the gym.'[inaudible]

Christine:              Change and...

Kristina:                 Yeah. So know everything that I'm talking about are things that are free. They're accessible, and they're very brief.

Christine:              No excuses people.

Kristina:                 Right. And oops, lost the headphones I want to listen to. So, so this one is super great. And the one caution, that it's not a caution, the one reminder that I give to people, is if you're going to do one of these exercises, make sure you do both sides because you don't want to just turn to one side and forget to turn to the other side. So do both sides. And then the final area in this particular app is something that's called value cards. They're alphabetical, so at the moment what shows up is idealism.

Christine:              Ok.

Kristina:                 And so it has a little text describing idealism, and if I swipe, then comes up independence…

Christine:              Right.

Kristina:                 initiative. So there's another one, so there's a whole alphabet word, integrity, joyfulness. So different values that are important to us as healthcare providers, really important to us as people, but particularly when we're in the business of healthcare, we are some of the worst...

Christine:              Yeah.

Kristina:                 at taking care of ourselves. And I'll use this as a teeny segway because do you know that in the most recent studies in the US on physicians and Burnout, over 70 percent of physicians who are surveyed show at least one of the characteristics of burnout.

Christine:              Oh my gosh, let's get going on this because my ears are like, what? So I mean, burnout is like this term that's being thrown around all the time. You know? Yeah. Some people who use it very negatively because unfortunately, you know, it's, a lot of people don't really know what it is. They don't know what it manifests likes, there's abuse that is being, you know, I don't know, in Luxemburg in particular, there's lots of people who abuse it and they just get three weeks or three months of work because they claimed to have burnout. So I think it is first of all important to understand what it is and how it manifests, especially either to become aware that you as a practitioner might actually be going down a slippery road or, what I also find uber important, is when we're working with a client and I mean not everyone is qualified to work in that particular area. A lot of us are coaches and I find that it's our duty to know when we've reached our limits, and I find knowing that someone is on their way to a real burnout that's out of our boathouse for most of us. So for me, this is really on the one hand looking at ourselves. You just said how many practitioners are actually well on their way of suffering severe burnout. How to diagnosis or how to get good idea of what this might be going on with my client or when it's time to refer out. So I would love to talk about these areas. I know it is super vast topic, but I know you are the go to person to talk about this, so I cannot wait to soak up your knowledge on this.

Kristina:                 Oh, thank you. And that's literally one of the things that in my executive coaching I really specialize in because I have the psychological knowledge. So I'm a person who literally others refer to when they get to this place, when things have become too much.

Christine:              Yeah.

Kristina:                 And so I love the fact that we're able to think about this. And I'm going to start off with giving you an example of a time that I discovered that I was burnt out and because it happens, it doesn't happen at the same frequency necessarily all the time, and it's not always obvious, and yet it's something we have to pay attention to. So my big personal hashtag is always radical self-care. Because that means, right? Literally paying attention to what's going on and radical self-care for me means things like setting limits and having boundaries and owning your strengths and knowing when to say no and when to say yes to you, things like that. So that's the talk that I'm always giving to everybody. Here's a day, I drive home, and usually I parked in my garage, and I walked through the garage into my house. As you walk in, there's a long table, and that's where we put the mail and other things that are going to go in or out. So every day in a row I walk in, I look at the mail, I leave things, I move things, it's fine. And usually what happens is the dogs run up to greet me and my husband comes over because he's usually home first and he gives me a hug and a kiss and I say hi and I look at the mail, blah blah blah, you know, normal, ordinary life. So I notice many days in a row that there's like a basically a lot of junk on this table, and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. 'Hi, how you doing? I add to what I take away all fine.'And then this one day I walk in, and as I walk in, the dogs come over, my husband comes over, he's smiling and saying hi. And I look at the table and I look at him and I'm like, 'what is all this mess?'And he's like, oh right. He's sort of gives me that look. And I was like, 'is anyone ever going to clean this? Like what is going on here? Why does this look like this?'And there's a pause. It's just like, 'Oh God, you know what, what is she doing?'

Christine:              'What is going on?'Yeah. Lost the plot.

Kristina:                 And he very gently says, 'honey, I think that's all your stuff.'

Christine:              Wrong thing to say.

Kristina:                 Well actually, luckily because this is my area, right? And we've got to, you know, heal thyself. So I look at him like, 'you're right.'And I thought instantly what is going on? Like this was an over the top reaction.

Christine:              Yeah.

Kristina:                 The scenario was no different than any other day before and yet this. And it wasn't even that much. Like you know it, this is one of those, it took like five, maybe six minutes to put everything away and clear it off. So this...

Christine:              But it just triggered. Yeah.

Kristina:                 Total trigger total over the top irritability and reaction. And luckily we work, he and I well enough together and he knows me and if he says, if he's going to call me on the carpet and hold me accountable without sounding defensive, there's something for me to look at. It was very clear to me, as I looked at it, that I had gotten to a place, because I was loving what I was doing and busy. So it wasn't that things were bad.

Christine:              Yep.

Kristina:                 But I wasn't following the steps that I teach people regarding radical self care.

Christine:              Right, ok.

Kristina:                 And that those little irritants had grown and grown and grown and I hadn't stopped and taken the time to shift the pathway.

Christine:              Okay.

Kristina:                 Whether it was the mess or internally, and so therefore match, tinder, boom. Off I went now it wasn't a bad episode of burden. It was like one of the early stages of that. But that kind of irritability, that's something that is an absolute emotional sign that burnout is going on.

Christine:              See, I would just think, 'oh, I just had a back day. I'm a little bit tired.' You know, so I'm actually self-evaluating myself and I didn't have like a trigger like that. But it definitely feel tired and so much going on that I'm like, 'Ooh, hang on, I might need to do some yoga poses here.'

Kristina:                 Exactly, exactly. So let me just go over some of the different categories of symptoms that we might see.

Christine:              Yes.

Kristina:                 Obviously they, these can account for many different things because you just gave a good example. We know that you’re the sleep expert and so not having enough sleep is certainly something that can contribute to getting some of these symptoms, but not sleeping is also a sign. It's one of the very first physical signs of burnout. So chronic fatigue, insomnia, getting sick a lot, weight gain or weight loss, appetite changes. Those are some pretty significant physical signs. Also aches and pains, a lot of aches and pains are a sign that you want to pay attention. Now if you just have one or two of these, obviously we always want to look to them straight medical first, is there something going on for us physically for anything because we want to rule that out, right? So I don't know if I had pneumonia, for example, or mononucleosis. I might be very, very tired and feeling achy and sick all the time, but in the absence of a known clear physical illness...

Christine:              Yeah.

Kristina:                 you need to pay attention to that. So similarly, lots of headaches, stomach aches, aching joints, fatigue, insomnia, change in appetite, and again, I know that you'll appreciate this. We might also see an increased drive for junk food, sugar, particularly sugar at nights. Yeah. So physically that's what we'll see. Emotionally, anxiety, depression, irritability, anger, pessimism, cynicism and detachment.

Christine:              Yes.

Kristina:                 Right. So one more sort of like, 'oh, just go away, just leave me alone and go away.'

Christine:              Yeah.

Kristina:                 That's again, that's sort of another, to me these are all yellow flags.

Christine:              Interesting. Yeah.

Kristina:                 Right. So you want to think like how many yellow flags do I have?

Christine:              Yeah.

Kristina:                 Similarly, at work, it could be a drop in productivity or forgetfulness, difficulties with concentration and attention. So all of those can be signs that burnout may be going on and we want to pay attention to that because if in fact we're seeing a whole bunch of, oops I just, something went wrong. If we're seeing a whole bunch of those different signs, then accumulative number of those or seeing that over a number of days. So absolutely as you said, anyone can have a bad day, anyone can have a bad couple of days, but when you're beginning to feel this way more as more often than not, or as a regular course, you really want to begin saying, 'hm, let me do an assessment.'That's why I love the Provider Resilience app.

Christine:              It's true.

Kristina:                 Because you can log this and you can sort of say, 'hm, how are things going?'Now one of the other things that we know, is that everybody has this recency bias. So anytime someone comes into my office and I say, how are you doing? Literally they start telling me about the last 48 hours.

Christine:              Ohh.

Kristina:                 The 48 hours are good. They're like, 'oh, I'm great, blah blah, blah, blah,'and then they say, 'oh, you know, a week ago x tragedy occurred, but you know, last few days.'

Christine:              I'm fine.

Kristina:                 Or they've had things go really well, but in the last two days they've gotten stuck or they're struggling and they come in and they're like, 'oh, I feel awful.'

Christine:              I get it. Yeah, it's like when my clients come, I've been sleeping well for two months, but the last night I had a bad night and it's like, 'oh, come on.'You've been sleeping so badly before every night, so yes, Yeah.

Kristina:                 So we want to pay attention to that for ourselves and in our clients. Right? We want to keep in mind that people are immediately looking at really the short term past what's gone on. And so that's why I love tracking, so using particularly tech tools to track how are you doing or how is your client doing, having your client track, doesn't matter and you know what? Your client doesn't have to be a healthcare provider, anyone can get this app. So even though I'm saying 'Provider Resilience' and it was made for healthcare professionals, it works for everybody. That's what's fabulous.

Christine:              Yeah.

Kristina:                 But particularly relevant to the healthcare professional.

Christine:              Alright.

Kristina:                 So we begin to track this. We're like, 'okay, I'm having more and more of these signs. What's going on? What do I need to pay attention to?'And then we need to step back and begin to take sort of an inventory of what am I seeing and how strongly is this feeling? You know? And so remember I mentioned pessimism and cynicism.

Christine:              Yes.

Kristina:                 Right? So I want to highlight those...

Christine:              I have the [inaudible] my cynicism sometimes.

Kristina:                 So and so do I mean I am, I consider myself a realist, although my friends will often also say that I'm Pollyanna, not so I don't ignore the truth. I totally believe in bringing in a realistic view, but I want it to be balanced. So I think our goal is balanced. We don't want to be up all the time. We don't want to be down all the time, right? We want that seesaw to be relatively balanced. So the prime key for me is when you look and you say, am I in balance? Like in general, if I think of the last week or the last month and having data helps, then am I in balance? Or are there more days where I'm catching myself being this other way? So I'll give you an example from one of my executive coaching clients, senior executive. And the reason she came to me as she, she said, 'hey, I think I'm having some real anxiety, maybe going into depression and so maybe I need therapy.' And I said, you know, can we talk coaching first before therapy because like, let's see where you're at, let's assess this. So instead we did coaching and what it was was burnout, and here was her sign, her number, two major signs, one was she noticed that at work, little things were irritating her.

Christine:              Yes, I have so many clients with that.

Kristina:                 She was finding herself being a little shorter or a little more snappy to her staff, and she was really beginning to think, 'okay, how quickly can I retire?'Now this was a young woman. She was not at traditional retirement age, you know, sort of early, middle age. And so literally as she loved what she did, she didn't want to stop it. But she understood that she was feeling irritable.

Christine:              Something was happening. Yeah.

Kristina:                 Yes. And I think one of the things that we do is when we begin to question this, we might go into this other area of, am, do I have an anxiety disorder? Is this depression, anxiety and depression go hand in hand, and we may be feeling more anxious, so she was also waking up and immediately overwhelmed by thoughts of her workday and what was she going to do, and how could she manage it and would get anxious. So she was experiencing anxiety. She was experiencing some of the early signs of maybe like an irritable agitated depression, but she didn't have a full blown anxiety disorder or she wasn't in a major depression. And that's part of that differentiation I think is important because early intervention can make such a difference and so I don't want us to pathologize things and that's what we do. We tend to say, oh look, right, because we're often so critical, so I was fine, fine, fine, fine, fine. And now everything's, everything's blown up and it's awful. And that's where that pessimism and the cynicism can come in, and we are sort of overly negatively catastrophizing how we're, how we're doing.

Christine:              Yeah.

Kristina:                 So the other sign for her was that she would come home and she was too tired to do the things that she said she knew she should. So she wasn't exercising, she had a hard time at making a healthy meal and she'd sit on the couch and eat cookies and basically give herself a hard time mentally about sitting on the couch eating cookies and not exercising. And so literally she was like, I know what to do. Like, you know, I'm not an idiot. I know exactly what to do, but I can't get myself to do it.

Christine:              Yes.

Kristina:                 And so what I said to her, as you know, let's think about this differently. What if we think about this as burnout and what if we say it's at a stage of burnout that absolutely, in a very short period of time, there are some things that you can do, hashtag radical self-care, in order to stop the progression and turn things back so that you're back to loving the work that you love, feeling, that you have energy doing what you need to do to take care of yourself.

Christine:              Ok.

Kristina:                 So one of our very first interventions was starting the day off with laughter. Laughter is the best, biggest hit of dopamine that we can get.

Christine:              I love it.

Kristina:                 Dopamine makes us feel good, right. So she loves, this sounds so silly. She loves funny YouTube cat videos.

Christine:              Oh gosh, who doesn't.

Kristina:                 Right? Exactly.

Christine:              Totally up there.

Kristina:                 Dancing parrot. I liked the dancing parrot, right? They crack me up.

Christine:              Yes.

Kristina:                 So now traditionally we would say, don't look at your phone right away. Don't go on media. Okay, that's all well, generally speaking, that's true. As in don't dive into it.

Christine:              Don't check your email. Don't go on the internet. Yeah.

Kristina:                 Exactly. But for her, the minute she woke up, she was flooded with these anxious thoughts about what she had to do and how she didn't want to do it. So we needed to get that to stop right away.

Christine:              Not spiral out of control. Yeah.

Kristina:                 Exactly. Five minutes of silly YouTube videos, she would laugh...

Christine:              I love it.

Kristina:                 and then get out of bed with the energy and the positive mood to face the day.

Christine:              I love that.

Kristina:                 Shower, eat, etc. and later go look at the email. So that's just one example. That's radical self-care.

Christine:              That's amazing.

Kristina:                 Right? And that's what I mean. Simple intervention, simple short, no cost or low cost interventions.

Christine:              Yep.

Kristina:                 Some other interventions that we used for her, really worked with her on time blocking in her day. So as a senior executive with an open door policy, because she wanted to be accessible to her clientele, she didn't feel like she ever had time that was focused to do what she needed to do and the burnout was inhibiting her focus and concentration. So we talked about, if you think about this as coming from a place of you want to have the most to give those that you work with, you must have a break. And there is so much research in the...

Christine:              Yes.

Kristina:                 peak performance and mindset, literature on the fact that we can only work for a certain amount of time...

Christine:              Of course.

Kristina:                 and then we need a break.

Christine:              It's much less than we actually think it is. Like an eight-hour workday it's just ridiculous. You never going to get eight hours of work done, it's just ridiculous. Power naps baby. Yeah.

Kristina:                 Yes. So we actually need, the research says, and it depends on what it is that you're doing, but somewhere between 50 and 75 minutes, we must take a break. Meaning you can't work longer with focus concentration than either an hour or an hour and a half, sort of depending on what you're doing or what your profession is. And so at about 50 minutes you need to take a brief break. What do we do? We pull up our Provider Resilience app and we use some of those things to rejuvenate us during that.

Christine:              Amazing.

Kristina:                 So again, right? We're talking five minutes or less, and that context switching in that moment, basically reboots your brain so you can go back in with increased focus and concentration. So that's one of the ways we use some time blocking.

Christine:              I love it.

Kristina:                 We also had her set aside some dedicated time where she could in fact close her door for half an hour and attend to those things that were really high priorities...

Christine:              Yeah.

Kristina:                 but that would, right? Again protecting her and saying no, so she could say yes to her to have more, to give.

Christine:              Love it. So this is obviously super important when we have a client or when you know for ourselves, you know, if there's someone listening and it's like, okay, I see I literally coach five clients a day for one and a half hours. It's like, come on, you know, how's your brain supposed to do that So I think for ourselves, this is a super important one. Now my next question would be, I know that if you know, you have a case where this person wasn't as mindful or wasn't as open to, you know, get help straight away. I mean, this lady, she was aware, she knew that something was going on and most of the time our clients usually feel that something's not right. What do we do when we have someone? Because if you have a full blown burnout, it's seriously physical incapacitating and it can leave permanent damage. So, what would you suggest? What are some of the signs where you would say, okay, this is actually not just a yellow flag, there's this like orange verging on red. When is it time for a general health care provider or health coach to say, this is not my boathouse anymore. I need to refer this out in order to give my client the best care possible.

Kristina:                 The things that I see most commonly at that more advanced stage of burnout are an unremitting fatigue, a sense of hopelessness and this negativity or pessimism about the ability to change.

Christine:              Interesting. That is a thought I cannot change anyway.

Kristina:                 Right? There's nothing. It literally comes down to I'm helpless and hopeless. There's nothing I can do. I have to do ABCDE. There's no getting around it, nothing can change. And our thinking, the more burnt out we are. We just talked about a lack of mental flexibility.

Christine:              Ok.

Kristina:                 So the more burned out we are, we're not regenerating and we're not recuperating and so we have narrowed options that we're seeing as what, how we can manage something. So I mean I just think of parents who will say, 'oh, we'll have to take care of my kids and I have to work and I have to take care of the house and blah blah blah blah blah.'And you say, 'well, what if you wanted or what have you left the dishes in the sink overnight.' 'Oh, I can't possibly do that.'

Christine:              Okay. So complete inflexibility and, and like not seeing the forest for the trees.

Kristina:                 Right. And this degree of, it's not even, it's even beyond flexibility. It's often this, huge resistance, and that won't help.

Christine:              Interesting.

Kristina:                 Even if I did that, that won't help.

Christine:              See, I wouldn't have known that. So this is super interesting to me, okay.

Kristina:                 Yeah, so again, we're often using the relationship we have with the person to say, how about, how about you? I'll say like, let's test the hypothesis. Let's do an experiment, right? People love that. People like, all right, right, fine, because we're not gonna. I'm not gonna say, I mean I think I'm right, but hey, what do I know? I'm not you. You know this. So are you willing to engage in a little experiment to see what happens. Now one of the core techniques that we're using to manage burnout aren't really because burnout is about stress and stress management, right? Whatever the stressors are, it's all of that. Stress doesn't have to be bad, but that's a whole other conversation. The power of stress. But when we're talking about in this way, one of the impacts, again, of stress, is that decrease in cognitive flexibility. And stress means that our limbic system and our Amygdala is highly activated. So basically we're on red alert all the time.

Christine:              Yeah.

Kristina:                 That's why we get the irritability. We have a greater startle response.

Christine:              Yes. Just on edge.

Kristina:                 At all. It's almost done. Right, I'm on edge. I can't catch my breath even though you're not out of breath.

Christine:              Yes.

Kristina:                 That feeling like the world is coming down on me.

Christine:              Your lungs are just too small suddenly. Yeah.

Kristina:                 Yeah. So breathing. Now I literally, people look at me and they just sort of roll their eyes and they're like, seriously? Seriously like, do you like have anything better than that? I'm like…

Christine:              I know. They want something new.

Kristina:                 Let me tell you. Yeah. And I'm going to say my techniques fall under another catchphrase. 'Simple, not easy.'They're very simple, but it's not easy because you have to make a commitment and you have to persevere in applying the technique. So it's simple but not easy.

Christine:              Love it, yeah.

Kristina:                 And so really validating that like, this isn't going to be easy, but if you don't want to feel as crappy as you feel, I can change that.

Christine:              Yeah.

Kristina:                 And we start that with breathing. So I'm going to throw in here another little app for you because this is one of my favorites. There's about a bazillion different good breathing apps and I will say to people, 'hey, find one search, find something that you love that works for you,'but the same group that developed Provider Resilience, did this app that I'm going to tell you about, and it's called Breathe2Relax. So it's the word Breathe with the e, 2 the number 2, Relax, also free, totally available. 

Christine:              Ok.

Kristina:                 And the reason I love this is it has an audio component, so there's a voice that tells you what to do. You can set the background, so you have a pretty background and you can adjust the length of the inhale and exhale so you can customize it. But the part I love the best is it has a little cylinder that fills up as you inhale and then the cylinder.

Christine:              So you visualize it.

Kristina:                 Exactly, exactly. If someone has an apple watch as an example, there's a that there's a little circle and it gets bigger when you breathe in.

Christine:              I love it, yeah.

Kristina:                 Fabulous. So again, we're talking like you can do this two minutes, two minutes or less when you go for a potty break. So, it also gives you a rate your stress, so you can rate your stress from low to high so you can track it as well is, it's always about tracking. But if I go to this, come on. Alright, I'll just start this and I'll show you a little teeny bit of it just so you can see the cylinder. And again, for those of you who are listening, check out the video so that you can see this because it's pretty awesome. All right, so oops.

Christine:              Oh yeah, I can see it. Alright and so now and again, yeah, I love that. So you have this cylinder filling up and basically emptying out again, I love it.

Kristina:                 Yes. And I picked flower background because it's nice and it's a soothing voice, whatever, but you can set it to whatever you want. So what we know is that all of our sensory memories, good and bad, are stored in the limbic system. That's what the amygdala does. And that's our warning system as well. So when we use additional sensory components, we can help calm the amygdala down even more. So this app in particular, we've got the audio sensory who have the visual sensory, right? Both of those are there as it's guiding us to do the breathing, which is the important piece that we're really trying to do. So it's the breath that makes such a difference. The amygdala in that with the other sensory components.

Christine:              Exactly. And that's what I love to tell people is that you are in control. Like your brain, yes, it is incredibly complex, but it's also incredibly basic, and you can control it. It's the best thing in the world, especially if I have people who are like, 'everything's out of control. It's spinning out of control. I'm just a slave to my thoughts.'And it's like, no, you're not. You can use your physiology to literally control your thoughts.

Kristina:                 Absolutely.

Christine:              Which I think is super powerful and empowering really people in so many different ways. I do these things with my clients before going to bed, but this is definitely something super easy. But yes, not or simple, not easy. Which I think is a great tool to let people know, and I love also that you told us what to look out for. So we're running out of time, but I think we know after this episode, we know what to look out for, what you watch out for, for ourselves. Like I definitely have a couple of yellow flags at the moment and super stressful at the moment. Right now. My business is going great. So lots of stuff going on. So I need to walk the talk as you said, but also for my clients, like, I looking back, I definitely had at least five to 10 clients where I would say they were definitely showing some signs. Inadvertently I do a lot of techniques that help burnout as well. But I loved that you said that one of the main things that you have to kind of think about referring out is that when people become stuck, you know.

Kristina:                 Yes.

Christine:              And really give up on themselves and just think this is never going to change. And if you don't have the right way of talking to them, I believe that you hit a wall and you're not serving them. So for everyone out there, if you do have a client like that, please, maybe they can even get in touch with you and ask you for advice. How would they do that?

Kristina:                 Oh absolutely. So you can always reach me through my website, which is a DrKristinaHallett.org. D r K r i s t i n a H a l l e t t dot Org. You can also email me and seriously my email is out there everywhere but it's Kristina M as in Mary, KristinaMHallett@Gmail. I'm so happy to talk to people. You can reach me through LinkedIn or Facebook and this is exactly it. And you know, one of the things that I do is I often partner with other coaches. So for example, if you were working with someone on your sleep coaching and they got to that point...

Christine:              I'm just like, oh, not quite there with my practice, which, you know, I do stuff paper to a certain limit but I'm not a clinical psychologist or psychiatrist or whatever, you know. So I know when I reached my limits I would just say, look Kristina, I want to refer you someone, let's just do this together. And if they fine with it actually may be exchanged notes, depends on the kind of course. Yeah.

Kristina:                 Exactly. And then I would work on that piece and then send them back to do the piece that they were doing, because I'm not trying to be an expert in everything either.

Christine:              Exactly.

Kristina:                 So one of the people that I work with in fact is teaching people about money management and being in charge of their financial side of their business. But same thing if a person you see this with entrepreneurs all the time, if they get burnt out, they're stuck.

Christine:              Yeah.

Kristina:                 Those blocks that need to be addressed so they can go back and do that. I don't want to teach somebody about the financial aspects of running their business. I'm good with mine, you know. So that kind of thing. So I absolutely love that, because to my mind, then everyone's getting to be in their wheelhouse, their area of expertise…

Christine:              Exactly.

Kristina:                 but also making a difference.

Christine:              Absolutely. And I think it's a sign of being an integrity and it's also a sign of being a high end coach if you have a referral network, if you have a team that you know can help you with, just showing that you have a great network and it's just professional. I just find people knowing when to say stop and having someone they trust that great to work with, that's just showing how professional you are. So anyone who's doing coaching but it has a lot of these types of people and it's like I don't feel quite equipped for that. I think Kristina would get better results. She obviously has the experience. She has the credentials. We just heard her speak, so everything's just been golden. Then do you get in touch with her. We have all the links on our website, 360healthbizpodcast.com. You'll just have to click on the links and you can get in touch with her and I just think this is amazing. Have a look at the video where she's demonstrating the app. We're going to link it as well in the post on the transcript and that's all we have time for today. Kristina, I cannot tell you how grateful I am for you being here and sharing all this system with us. I think it's a topic that's, you know, people roll their eyes as soon as they hear the word burnout because it's just been used so much, but it's very, very real and I think because so many people are fed up with it, they don't care to even look further into it. So I think this is a golden episode that every health practitioner is mandatory to listen to it.

Kristina:                 Well, thank you so much for having me on. As I said, this is my passion because I truly believe that we can feel better and when we feel better, we give better care and so that means that we're literally making a difference in changing the world, and we have to start with ourselves.

Christine:              Yes, we do. I love this. I'm totally in love with you right now. Crushing hard.

Kristina:                 Yes, yes, yes, yes. Ditto, so there with you.

Christine:              Alright, well everyone, thank you so much for tuning on, surf over to iTunes if you've enjoyed this episode and give us some love there, and all the links on our show notes on our website and we're looking forward to talk soon, next time together with Kendra and stay tuned for more business tips and also continuous education tips, which we did today. So thank you so much for being with us and that's it for today. So bye. 

Kristina:                 Bye.