You may have already noticed that we LOVE Instagram and we love nerding out about it. If you are new to Instagram or haven’t quite figured it out yet, you are really going to learn a lot from today’s episode and hopefully you get a little nerdy too.
We are have Kelly Doody with us today, the Founder & CEO of Social School to talk all about Instagram marketing for business.
Here’s what you’ll find in today’s episode:
- the 4 A’s of Marketing (the 4 P’s are so 90’s)
- what the heck are content pillars and how you MUST use them to continuously produce new content
- keep things spicy with new content (nobody likes seeing the same thing over and over again)
- aesthetic to your Instagram feed
- the difference between IGTV and Instagram stories (and why you should be using both)
- nerd out with analytics to determine which content works and which doesn’t
- as we always saying, why niching your target audience is SO important
- why social media advertising is still something you should do (and why you shouldn’t just blindly boost a post for $20)
There's no PhD in marketing (or social media for that matter). To figure out what works for you and your business in order to market yourself as the kickass health coach you are, you just have to get in there and get dirty. Marketing is all trial and error but at least with this episode, we have plenty of tips to get your started (and reduce the amount of errors).
When it comes to Instagram, we like to think of it as frontend art and backend science. The number one question you need to ask yourself when you are posting anything is: how does your post convert. And which conversion is most important to you. Do you want the vanity conversions like likes or do you want tangible conversions like clicks to your website and follows, which eventually lead to sales? This means you might have to put some money towards boosting your posts but you should take it a step further and be strategic about WHO you are boosting that post to. You may have a ton of great memes or click-bait posts but at the end of the day, does that convert to what you want to achieve? This is where the frontend art comes into play and you need to consider the aesthetic of your feed.
Tune into today’s episode and get nerdy with us!
Kelly Doody - Founder & CEO, Social School Kelly is a journalist turned digital marketing junkie. In addition to founding Social School, a top digital marketing academy offering live and online courses and certification programs, as well as Canada's largest marketing conference series, she is the co-founder of Press + Post – an award-winning modern marketing agency with clients across North America. Nothing makes Kelly happier than training organizations big and small to master their online domain, while connecting the top digital tools and trends with the entrepreneurs and innovators who need them most. Her runner up bio is just as great… “buy me dinner and I’ll teach you the secrets to the internet”.
Get the Social School FREEBIE of social media planning tools & tip sheets: https://socialschool.io/subscribe
Planoly - www.planoly.com/
Say hi on social:
Kendra Perry Instagram: www.instagram.com/kperrynutrition
Christine Hansen Instagram: www.instagram.com/sleeplikeaboss_
Kendra: Hello everyone. Kendra here, welcome to an amazing, awesome, super exciting and super nerdy episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I am so excited for today's topic. We're talking about something that's kind of sexy. We're talking about Instagram, and we love Instagram and I'm super stoked because I am hanging out with my beautiful, sexy and very well dressed, I might add, co-host, Christine Hansen. I love your dress. I think you look super good. Guys you should watch our video on YouTube to see how good Christine looks today. That old thing is like...-
Kendra: We have a super awesome guest today, we have Kelly Doody, and she is going to be talking to us about how to use Instagram for business. Instagram is definitely a hot topic, we've been posting a little bit on our Podcast about Instagram and you guys are really loving it. So we want to go a little bit deeper today and show you how you can actually utilize this platform to grow your business. And just to give you a little bit more background about Kelly, Kelly is a journalist turned digital marketer with an unrelenting passion for the knowledge share community that is marketing today. I love that. In addition to leading social school, she is the co-founder of the renowned Canadian, fellow Canadian, very excited, Digital Agency Press and Post. So nothing makes Kelly happier than moving individuals and organizations toward becoming the masters of their online domain and connecting the top digital trends and tools with the entrepreneurs and innovators who need them the most. I love that bio.
Christine H.: What a bio, I'm-
Kendra: Welcome Kelly.
Christine H.: I need to open that Google doc and use it as a model for my IMT because I'm like, jeez, relentless-
Kelly Doody: You're so sweet. My other one is one line. It says, "Buy me dinner and I'll teach you the secrets to the internet."
Christine H.: Totally fine. Dinner and dessert with my [inaudible 00:01:56]. That's like sexy talk for me. I'm like, "Ooh, let's talk marketing. Let's talk Instagram turn on.
Kelly Doody: It's foreplay absolutely. A Martini and that and I'm yours. It's like, yeah, got it. Okay.
Kendra: So Kelly I'd love to know a little bit more about you, because you said you were a journalist turned marketer, so how did you sort of transition from that space to the space that you are currently in now?
Kelly Doody: Yeah. Well, I mean the short version is that I was a columnist for the Calgary Sun and then I was doing some freelance writing for a few other publications. And I suppose I saw the writing on the wall with media and I don't do well when things are going in a very flat line. And, and or that there is no evolution and kind of promise to it. So in about 2010 after being a full time journalist for several years. I switched to the dark side and I started doing PR. I had the benefit I suppose, of really being in touch with in Calgary, the small business community and who was doing what in media relations and outreach and basically story telling. And that right was at the time where Social media was becoming a thing. And I knew I could help people with both.
Kelly Doody: So I started my own PR firm, which eventually grew into an agency with a friend of mine. And then one of those glorious days, that's the life changing moment and you can point to in your life or one of a few, it was my sister-in-law at the West Edmonton Mall water slides [crosstalk 00:03:20]. And she said to me... she said, "take your business online." And I'm sure a lot of your listeners and perhaps yourselves can relate that when you're a service practitioner and you're only making money by the hour or with whatever, however many hours you have in a day. I didn't love it. I felt like I was really constrained by, just sort of this ceiling on my head that had to do with, yes, earnings, but more so just the ability to scale and not being in that position.
Kelly Doody: So I started packaging up some of my so called expertise in content and media relations and I built my first course is called PR Pioneers and that was about eight years ago. And then just got really more into the education space to sort of build one, sell often one to many versus one-to-one. And then fast forward to 2019 and it's now a social school. And we run events, conferences and classes all across the country.
Christine H.: Very cool.
Kendra: Very, very cool.
Kelly Doody: Thank you. Yeah, it's pretty fun. And it just so happens that something in me said, "get the heck out of the PR game and stop talking about media relations." Love traditional media more than ever, particularly in this political climate we're living in where truth matters and journalism is so important. But I really also had much more of an interest in the digital marketing sphere. So I nerded hard. And I had to too, when I was building these online classes, like the curriculum was 4% of the work. It was 96% learning the platforms and owning them because I didn't have the funds to be able to pay someone to build a website, launched these courses, host them, pay walls, gateways, nurture campaigns, the whole thing. And as we know marketing is very much trial and error DIY, like just get down and, and get going on it. And that's when I say, the knowledge share community that is marketing. There's no PhD in this, there's not even a degree in the digital and the content sphere we're playing in. It's just get in and start working on it and then converse with your peers and find out what's working and what's not so [crosstalk 00:05:21].
Kendra: I agree especially because it changes so quickly, like something that's working now is not going to be working necessarily in two years or 18 months. It takes such a quick change. We've talked about this a little bit, also going from complicated to simple and so yeah.
Christine H.: And I think that's a little bit where Instagram is still this enigma. Is it really easy? Is there something I'm missing? Like, literally I don't know. Kendra and I, we went to Social Media X Awards in November last year. And we went to that seminar and we literally were like soaking everything up Instagram. But sometimes I find like I'm missing something? Is there something else to it? So this is really exciting for us because I think both of us, we are kind of knowledgeable about it and oh, I wing it Kendra is like a pro much more so, but I would love to know a little bit more. And I think a lot of our... it's actually converting very well for me Instagram, surprisingly. So I only got into it to build my brand and to do brand ambassadorships and things like that. But I think a lot... I think it's a great space for health. So tell us a little bit about your Instagram expertise. First of all, if you are in a health space, how can you use it? What should your goal be with Instagram?
Kelly Doody: Sure, yeah. And I suppose I'll start by answering that with two sort of big theories right now that we're sort of playing in. And one of those being that, and you guys have already said the word authenticity and absolutely we know so much that Social media and Instagram in particular right now, especially with its features like stories and IGTV and just even the communities and the forums that you can be a part of direct messaging aspect to it. We can do so much in exposing our A-words. We like to talk about moving past the four P's of marketing. Welcome to 1992 and going into the ace of authenticity and advocacy, which is the golden egg. Accessibility for your viewers, your listeners, your prospects or existing customers. Authority so that you're actually in a really authentic and humble or whatever your style is way, show that you know what the heck you're talking about. You are a leader in your field, you're an industry expert. People should trust you and want to buy from you, work with you, et cetera.
Christine H.: I'm like ready to storm out with it.
Kelly Doody: There you go. You got your A-words down, your A game is on point. But the other aspect of that is... and I suppose actually within that I will say that one thing we've become fiercely passionate about is not just the front end art but the backend science. And that's where we're seeing the difference. You already used the word Christine, convert. That is so important. So no matter what we talked about today, going forward, how we practice Instagram or Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, we have to be thinking about how this converts because otherwise it gets really bloody disheartening. You're like, "I'm three years, three months into and maybe now I'm promoting my posts, maybe I'm paying a photographer to up my game and I'm using an editorial calendar to plan my content and I'm ticking all those boxes to just raise my Insta game a little more."
Kelly Doody: But so what? Who cares? And we have clients and students who say this to us all the time and that's when we say we have no choice in 2020, 2019, but to be actually putting your money where your mouth is and actually maybe boosting your posts but to strategic audiences, running really complimentary Ad campaigns and sort of understanding that, that's backend technical aspect is where people are winning. And it's not a bunch of nerdy dudes. I hate to generalize. It should be the ones who are sitting there as the Ninjas, ones that are mastering SEO. It's like snake oil to the rest of us, or the paid rich that gets the content seen and acted on. We can all do this. And that's where I get so excited just to say to people like, "you're almost there. You just have to make slightly more targeted audiences or a bit more strategic content for that particular group of people. Or what's your goal? Where are people at in their customer journey with you and how do you reach them in each of those places?" And that was my super long winded way of saying, "Instagram can do all of that and more and it's awesome." I'm on fire.
Kendra: [crosstalk 00:09:28] Instagram because there's so many different ways to share content on it. You can do the short form video, the long form a video, the images. You can go live if you want to. And so I think there's a lot of different ways you can show up. I think where our audience might be confused is maybe the types of content they should be sharing it and like how to share it. Because I check out a lot of health coaches Instagram accounts and what I see is like there's a picture of a flower, there's a picture of a meal, maybe there's a quote and like they have like a hundred followers and they're frustrated because they're not getting anywhere. So I feel like... Can you tell our audience what types of content should they be thinking of sharing? Should it be about themselves? Should it be educational? Should it be behind the scenes? What should people actually be sharing on Instagram?
Kelly Doody: Yeah such a great [inaudible 00:10:11].
Christine H.: Not only use Shutterstock photos. I just went to spy out one of my competent competitors and I'm like, "If you only use shutter stock photos it looks so tacky, it's so old " And the other question I have is hashtags. Do they matter? Is it still a thing?
Kelly Doody: Yeah, okay. So, and I love it. Kendra what you're talking about is like basically where we start with everybody in strategy. And it's where whether or not you're working with an agency or you're totally solo. This is the piece that people most often miss and they just mediocre their into social, and Instagram in particular post, post, posts. And then the inevitable question is, "what the heck do I do next? I've run out of things to say." So the very like absolute must do starting point, whether it's today or 10 years from now, are content pillars. And what that is essentially is, what kind of themes can you break your content into? And you can do it in a really basic stance. And we do this all the time, like educate, entertain, inspire. So great if that's where you want to land, perfect.
Kelly Doody: But maybe for you it's more community culture promotional content. Maybe it's more product based. It's... We're working with the flooring company right now that says, that's way too, [woowoo 00:11:22] from me. I just need to straight up have pillars that include commercial, residential, renovation, awesome. Once we have our pillars set and we know how to essentially divide our content up into these buckets that allows for variety and interest and again that expertise to shine through that deeper more meaningful content because otherwise we just promote, promote, promote crap. I have an event this week, I haven't sold any tickets post, post, post and it just becomes numbing and sorry, unfollow. And then once we have those pillars in place we can come up with a really beautiful variety of content categories and that's where these can be universal.
Kelly Doody: How to unbox things, did you knows, behind the scenes, interviews, testimonials. And then really beautiful content types too, Still imagery, video, Carousels and then hopefully you can find a way to also start to insert graphics, animations, shifts. One of my favorite accounts is Plantarly. They're an Instagram planning tool plan O L Y and you look at their feed and I use it in classes all the time to show people like, "check this out." Not only are they like cycling through their nine grid on Instagram posts of color. So you'd go kind of purple in it ambers into yellow, into red, like beauty. This is like a 10 out of 10 A-game. But if we can even be a four out of 10, we're laughing. And then you can also start to see the pillars shine through. And they aren't technology company, they're pretty lame.
Kelly Doody: If you look on the surface and this is where we get into trouble. Where the realtor who's just posting, "Oh I don't know the latest house listing." or where a Physio therapist who's just posting the products that we work with as opposed to the faces and the transformation of those people. You're like... and we're not alone. Some of your, especially your service based health coaches, practitioners that are going, "God, it all feels the same." You've got to think deeper. My editor at the newspaper used to always say to me, "tell me more, tell me... who cares. I don't care Kelly. Someone's opening a restaurant or 50 other people. Tell me more." Well, "there is really neat family recipe from Italy of this pizza dough." Yeah, still don't care. Tell me more."
Kelly Doody: "Okay, well there's 42 members of this family in the kitchen and that's, they only hire their aunties. Like, "Oh, okay, interesting. Now I want to know the face and the person behind that story." But don't show me your latest like just same old, same old, the ribbon cutting, the zoomed out photo, the Shutterstock as you mentioned Christine. And that's what the humans connect with the faces in the context of humanity in those photos and in those stories.
Christine H.: I loved that. I think that's so important. Because a lot of these health coaches that I work with, or I'm checking out their Instagram accounts, I don't see them on their posts and their name might not even be in their bio. So how can you connect with that? There's no connection. I don't know who that is. They send me a message and it's from like health and wellness 200 with none of their name, none of their face. And you're just like, "uh, I'm not even going to answer this message." Because I don't know who this is." And I feel really bad because I'll have these DMs, but I'm like, "dude, I don't have time for this. I don't even know who you are, what this is about." And I'm like, no, no, no, no. But I agree that Kendra and I were pretty, no Kendra is not extroverted.
Kendra: I have my moments.
Christine H.: You have your moments It's actually difficult to say. We both actually like having photographs taken, right? So I have a Photo shoot wherever I go and then you see us a lot. But when I tell people that I... why is this on your Instagram? Shouldn't you be showing multivitamin? Or carrots or kale and all that kind of stuff, and I'm just... well that’s not what people check out. When they see that in their feed, it doesn't make them curious and I think it's so much... it's not about the photo in the end, it's what draws them in. But then it's about the headline and actually having a headline in an Instagram post is for many people like what do you mean headline? And to me in the meantime, I consider the posts that can teeny teeny weeny blog in a way. So it's fantastic what happens. And it's so true. Do change immediately your photo to you and not your logo or Kale.
Kelly Doody: Yeah that's a good starting point. Absolutely. People connect with a face, not a logo. And as infants I mean that's how we're wired. We look for the faces of our parents, the moment we can. And as adults we're the same. We want to see human faces and interaction. And we all know that trust has never been lower. It's hard to even trust Academia anymore let alone politicians and big business and banks. And it's just that this is the time we're in. We trust our friends, we trust referrals, the advocacy that comes from someone telling you, "hey, check out this restaurant, it's awesome." You're going to go there. So the more you can be that about authoritative, trusted face and person. But of course, if it's done in an artistic way and that's what's so beautiful about Instagram and when those varieties and content categories and pillars kind of get worked in and you just... all it takes is a bit of planning. Before we can get creative, we've got to get nerdy and we backed it up to an editorial calendar that says, "okay, I'm going to cycle through my entertain, inspire, educate, entertain, inspire, educate." Something like that, posts.
Kelly Doody: But I'm also going to cycle through a Still image that I took then a video, then a graphic, then some kind of, I don't know animation or... But again, the spice of life. If you pick up your favorite magazine, study Vogue, study Entrepreneur, Inc Magazine, and look at the layouts they've got. The reason we're so intrigued by a print Mag and the way that they've done it for decades so well is because the layout and the design and it leaves you wanting more. Emails are the same. I might love someone's email marketing or their messaging, but if it's always the same, there's no kind of surprise and delight. What am I going to see? What's going to make me open that email or make me start scrolling on their feed is going to be something that's different. So we have to also get past okay, "is it just me all the time or is it just my staff all the time?"
Kelly Doody: And that's where I truly believe that if you can showcase the people you're working with, and I know it's not always easy, we have privacy concerns we have kids to worry about. But if you can get 10 people that can be like these like faces of your business over the next 12 months that you can really showcase wonderful, right? But challenging ourselves a little bit, just like be the journalist of your business and dig a little deeper to tell those stories of transformation and end result because that's where you'll shine.
Christine H.: That's so good. It's so juicy. And so I just want to break this down a little bit. So what you're saying is, well first of all, people need to show up on their feed personally. They need to create content that people can actually connect with, which is not just like a bundle of kale or bacon and eggs.
Christine H.: Yap [crosstalk 00:18:09]. You have to show up in your feed and all that. And then you're saying like create these content buckets almost. Or more story like these different categories and like maybe figuring out like, what do you stand for in your business? If you're niching in like say weight loss, then you could have some of the transformations maybe you've created in your business and show those stories and tell those stories and maybe you have like different inspirational tips and then maybe you have recipes or whatever it is. But you're not always sharing the same kind of content, but you're breaking it down into these different categories, okay.
Kelly Doody: Absolutely. Yap[crosstalk 00:18:36] like what, Oh, sorry, go ahead.
Christine H.: Oh that's fine, But I'm not... like the way that I do it is because I don't plan. I'm notoriously bland and it freaks me out if I have to do like a long editorial calendar, like immediately, "I'm tired, I won't do it." And so it's just... But what I do, I do it in kind of this way because Kendra and I have been working with Jamie Jensen, who's also been on the podcast. And she helped us to basically flash out our story and she, through interviewing us separately with [inaudible 00:19:05] VIP days with her. She kind of figured out what our values are through us just talking and telling us her a story. And so whenever I do post, I go back to her framework that she created for me, which actually basically has exactly those pillars.
Christine H.: So some of them are business related and some of them are me related. And considering that the business is me, I usually go there and I look at, "Oh yes, I forgot that this word is something that is super important." And then I just pull something out that belongs to that. So it's not quite an editorial calendar because for me personally, that wouldn't work. It's just... I don't like it. It's just that my personality, I'm very organic. I'm never linear. That's not what I do. But [inaudible 00:19:50] do have that framework. So I think it's a brilliant idea to figure out what are your pillars and just even just write that one word and a post in it. Just put five posts around you that you always know I don't know what to think about, "Oh yes, this is my value or my businesses value." And you always find something to talk about because it's who you are. So I think that's brilliant. I do have a question though, because you said video and I was like, "I really want to do that." But what kind of video content would be Instagram like ish for let's say someone in the health space for example?
Kelly Doody: Well I mean... and a great question. I can't wait to hear more about what Kendra has been doing with her IGTV. Because this is a really beautiful feature that allows us to all be broadcasters of our own channels on our own. It takes stories to a bit of a deeper level, right? Within the platform, we're already a billion people are hanging out, so great. But when it comes to just sort of more high level video strategy. Once again, you have to figure out... I love the line, "Is it sustainable?" Can you actually dive into a video, strategy that is going to be something that's more than a one-off.
Kelly Doody: And I love to think to myself like, "okay, if I blog one time this year or let's say five blogs six times this year, that's six more times than last year." But at the same time I can't fall off the map. So what can you do? And I mean, the fact that we don't have to be as polished and perfect anymore or as maybe we did in the past with video. When we were going to be using it in commercial purposes. Because that's all we had. YouTube might still be a little bit more polished or it's a channel where you can certainly post sort of the more that more documentary like lots of post production and editing within it.
Kelly Doody: But Instagram stories and IGTV can be much more raw. So that's wonderful. All it takes is a little selfie stick or a tripod and a light and good sound. And all of those items you can buy for $30 a piece on Amazon. But at the same time for... back to the idea of what is the content that's best suited to you and what can you do? If you can't do an editorial calendar, no problem, but could you jot down five ideas for posts that week or look through your phone on the weekend, find a few photos and at least get yourself set up for some ideas. And then we get into the place where it's a little bit less, again, knee-jerk. And we're covering our bases, ticking our boxes and remembering as well. I love the idea of this dog trainer we have going through one of our certificate programs right now and she's lovely. And for her, the low hanging fruit on Facebook and Instagram is click baiting, you know the moose on the loose video playing in the paddling pool or the cat memes
Christine H.: Yeah, full techs.
Kelly Doody: But it might get some engagement and it might get some of those vanity metrics. The likes follows, shares. But it's not going to necessarily be the deeper stuff that makes me trust her with my new puppy, my new pet. If she doesn't plan and strategize and push herself to do the deeper, more strategic long form content or even just more, I don't know well thought out a series of posts or where she's showcasing her expertise, then she can sort of stay surface level. And with voice, the last thing I'll say, if you don't feel like you want to have a camera in your face and that's just not your thing, don't do it. Focus on the content that you can do well and maybe that is longer form writing and you should be blogging like crazy.
Kelly Doody: Maybe it's podcast because your voice is the soothing siren song. [inaudible 00:23:16]. But there's a lot of people doing Instagram stories really well that just hold the camera in front of them, but you get to know their voice. You never see their face. My friend, Dinner with Julie, Julie Ben Rosendaal does is brilliantly. And I love, she takes us on a journey every day with tons of stories, rarely see her face, but we so love her voice in the background. So you can do video in a lot of different ways.
Kendra: Yeah, I love that. And very quickly for people who are super new to Instagram, what's the difference between a on Instagram story and a video on IGTV? What is IGTV? And then you also have the live feature on Instagram stories, which I was like, what exactly is the difference? Until I realized that when you don't hold the button anymore on the regular story, it's like gone. So what is the difference between all of that?
Kelly Doody: Yes, great question. The short answer is that IGTV is sort of Instagram slash Facebook, who owns Instagram and Mark Zuckerberg answer to YouTube and YouTube live in particular. So just like they... let's say rinse and repeated photocopied everything that was Snapchat with Instagram stories 24 hours after disappearing mini stories. That were again more candid than what's in your sort of more polished scene. The IGTV was a way for us to go longer than we can go on stories. So you have a ten second video limit on stories. You can fill multiple live video stories in a row and they'll all show up. There are those little circles at the top of the feed, which I would think everybody's seen by now. But I was just with my girlfriends in Palm Springs on a ladies get away and three out of four of us had never heard of stories and that. And then they are like, "oh, what do you do?"
Kelly Doody: But anyway, so IGTV is now another feature where Instagram wants us to go deeper. And there's nothing like taking up a platform of any kind and just hanging out on it for the weekend and getting to know it. Every time someone says to me, "I don't like LinkedIn." I'm like, "have you been on it enough? Have you checked it?" Like really just dive in and you'll get so inspired as well as just have a better idea on, "hey, is this for me or not? Could I actually do this or do I want to just stay a voyeur and learn on it? Or actually do it way?"
Kendra: Yeah. Talking about voyeurism. So here comes my geeky stalky personality out. So if you're on stories, you can actually see everyone who's seen your story stories, which is kind of cool, but which also means that they see when you watch their stories. So I'm going to go and I'm going to share something with your sharing because I'm a huge stalker and I don't always want to people to know especially with some guy where I'm like, "no, I'm very cool, I don't care." So here's how you spy on someone so that they don't see basically when you have these circles, I think it's built that you just go through stories and then [inaudible 00:26:10] and the it continues. So if the circle is big, you go to the one afterwards, their story starts and then you just swipe back a little bit. And you can actually see what it's going to be about. Not the whole thing, but they won't notice. So as long as it doesn't really swipe over, you're good. So it's just enough [crosstalk 00:26:27] and it's like, "Huh-huh now I know and I look really cool because I don't care." But actually I do. So there you go it's [crosstalk 00:26:36]. It's funny if you were helping us be better stalkers I can see.
Kendra: I'm a very sad person, I am.
Christine H.: Very good and [crosstalk 00:26:44].
Kelly Doody: Oh, sorry go ahead. You go ahead.
Christine H.: You go.
Kelly Doody: I was going to say if you don't want to unfollow someone but they're posting too many stories, you can just hold that little circle and mute them and you won't see their stories anymore.
Christine H.: Which is great because if you unfollow someone, sometimes they yell at you though like, "you unfollowed me." And I'm like, why do people do that?"
Kelly Doody: Who cares? Like I can follow who I want to follow. It's not like a diss on you. I just don't want to follow you.
Christine H.: Totally. I know people are sensitive.
Kelly Doody: Okay. So I love this. So there's all different ways you can share the video. Like with IGTV, we can do that longer form video one. I think it's one minute to 10 minutes or something like that. And then IGTV, we are Instagram stories. We can do the shorter form video and then if you just want to talk forever you can do the live. But I think with the live it only lasts for 24 hours as well.
Christine H.: Yeah, right.
Kendra: Yeah, you can save it at the highlight afterwards I think.
Christine H.: It just takes a lot of effort, that's the one Instagram feature I don't really use is a Live. Because I feel like it's a lot of effort for something that disappears yet.
Kelly Doody: Yeah. It's really interesting where Facebook Live and Instagram Live are today and when Facebook Live came out about two years ago now it seems like, I don't know. It's funny Social media is like, it's also... it's really long and it's not that long. And of course we're all using it like a bunch of 19 year olds who want instant gratification as opposed to thinking of like, "how am I going to be using this for my business five years from now, 10 years from now." It is not going away. And that's why I really encourage the long game.
Kelly Doody: Stop thinking about just the next week and two months and think to yourself, what is Instagram going to have done for me two years from now? How do I want to invest in it currently?" Just like you would with a blog or just like you would with a video series. So, at the end of the day we need to think about whether live fills the right bucket for us as well. I read a really great line from actually Michael Stelzner of Social Media Examiner, who puts on the conference, it sounds like you guys attended or listen to. And for them they made a big decision that Social Media Examiner was no longer going to be using Facebook Live. And that was a big... They were heavy users. They had a big show on live.
Kelly Doody: And I love the simple analogy that we feel like we are trying to post a documentary on a billboard on the side of a super highway. People are flying by in their feed and here we're asking them to pause and stop and watch this video right here. Whereas when you're in a video specific platform like YouTube, you expect to be watching videos. You're not necessarily watching it. And I think that's why stories work so well because they're in Instagram, but they're short and quick and I can fly through them so easily. And just like podcasts, when you're diving into a podcast, you know what you're in for and you're folding your laundry or walking your dog at the same time. So you're ready for 45 minutes of juicy stuff. So we've really... It's just so mind blowing to me because I'm such a nerd, but I can't believe how much Facebook Live was so effective a year and a half ago. In terms of also the reach, like the organic reach we could get out of a Facebook video, maybe think to myself, why doesn't everybody stop wanting to be on Breakfast Television and Oprah and just start doing Facebook Lives? You're reaching a hundred times- [crosstalk 00:29:43].
Christine H.: It's very true.
Kelly Doody: However, and that's not to say like things are changing too [inaudible 00:29:48]. We don't invest in anything. Because I really... I don't agree with that sentiment. I think we're living in a time where these platforms have risen to the top as multi-billion dollar enterprises that are not going away and will continue to be invested in. A couple of years ago, everybody was worried that Facebook was like super lame because their mom and their grandma were now on it. And what do you know? Zuckerberg and his pals doubled down on it and made fantastic new features have made it the most powerful advertising platform in the world through Facebook Business Manager. So, yeah, you're in really good hands and it's a safe bet to double down on these platforms. Invest in them, but you don't have to use every single feature within them. Use the ones that make sense for you.
Christine H.: Yeah, I love that. And I think that's a really... because yeah, it's really easy when there's four different ways to share content on the single platform. Yeah, you can get really sidetracked and think you need to do it all. But I think you're right. You have to do what makes sense for you and what seems to work best in terms of what is the best engagement you can. And we were talking about this before we recorded. I'm just finding that my IGTV videos get five times the engagement and the traffic that all the posts in my feed and even what I'm getting in stories. I might get upwards of a thousand views on my IGTV videos. I might get 300 people watching my stories and I'll get like 50 likes.
Kendra: Because its so not close.
Christine H.: And so I'm like don't even know why I'm posting to my feed anymore other than-
Kelly Doody: I know, right?
Christine H.: You know pepper it in just to make it look nice.
Christine H.: Yeah, that’s exactly what I do. I love my feed because I think it's pretty, I'm just a total narcissist and I like just to watch my myself, no. I'm just kidding. But that's what I use my feeds for. Like literally, it's just in a long term. I'm really thinking someone who goes to see my feed and scrolling through it can see like, "okay, she's consistent. She has a certain ranch has she has a certain aesthetic, that's what it's for. It's like my business... my digital business card really. And Instagram stories is for the promotional push that I need sometimes or for fun, like literally showing pieces of me that don't belong in my feed because they're too goofy or then just me and I just don't want it to break up the prettiness.
Christine H.: But it's also interesting when you said, trying things. Because I always thought, "Instagram stories I don't want to make anything that's longer than five seconds or 15 seconds." And then I saw that Kendra was doing a lot of videos on there that a little bit longer, like not eternity, but still a little bit like that take like five taps, for example. Jimmy Palma did one recently. Not too hot topic at all, but I watched the whole thing, so I've tried it. And what doesn't make sense to me though is that when you look at who watches your story, you can see, okay they watched the first part, they watched the second, then they didn't watch the third, but they watched the fourth and the sixth again, which is really weird to me. So I don't quite understand how that works in their brain or in the feed. I don't know.
Christine H.: But it's interesting for me to kind of dissect it and to also see who's watching because it's very surprising and you can actually adapt what you're saying and what you're marketing to who is actually watching. Because I found people won't comment. The people won't, like a lot of them won't. But when you see in stories who's watching, you can actually tailor your audience to that, which I think is just fantastic.
Kelly Doody: Yeah, that's brilliant Christine, because I mean what you're describing right there is optimizing your content and you can optimize your Ads based on what's working, what's not. It's the same as AB Testing. It's the same as just essentially understanding your audience and catering it to them. And you can do it in a really like super nerdy reporting style way with lots of metrics. Or you can do what I love to call Anecdotal Analytics. I know this is working because of that. I know that that got a sick amount of views because we were moving down the street as we filmed that IGTV. We opened the door and welcomed someone in versus doing our typical sit down to talking heads style interview where we're 15 feet away.
Kelly Doody: Someone said recently or I think it actually started when Facebook Live first launched, they said if you're holding the phone more than an arms length the way you're doing it wrong. [crosstalk 00:33:45]. Yeah. And that was also because Live are same with Periscopes and with Meerkat, before that they were all about... it was a two way broadcast. So are you just speaking at people or are you welcoming them in? Of course IGTV is more of like you're filming a broadcast. But then how are you engaging with them after that fact? And again, just going back to those conversions. What is working well as you just described Christine like you know this is working, so I'm going to do more of that and this is totally tailored to this group. And even more so I'm going to further boost it to people like that in my killer audiences that I've pre-created in Facebook Business Manager.
Kelly Doody: So I'm going to just reach women age 25 to 32 who love, I don't know, CrossFit and Green Smoothies and live in London, England or something, right? But we're specific because Facebook will take your money and run. But it's super targeted and tailored to then further promote that content to like-minded audiences or a look alike audience of that. The group that watched that video, great. I'm actually headed into, I don't know Philadelphia with a conference. I've got a market that same video to a look alike audience of a similar profile of women in that market and I'm going to nail it. And it goes back to that idea of like instead of spraying and praying, I love the orchard example.
Kelly Doody: In the olden days just spray the whole field with water or rain and now we drip the water into the base of every Apple tree because that is where it's going to be most effective costs as the least amount of money and reach only those who give a crap. A million people are not an audience for anything. 100,000 if you're in a big market or 10,000 a smaller market, whatever that looks like for you is where we win, when we can tailor and target and now we're spending a lot less too.
Christine H.: So curious what types of audiences, because I know like I'm familiar with the audiences that you can create for Facebook Ads on Facebook, but what about Instagram? Like what audiences [crosstalk 00:35:35] Instagram we are all on the same page.
Kendra: Yeah, I love it.
Kelly Doody: Facebook is already at this thing where I'm like, "I just still mourn all the money that has gone down the Facebook Ads or texts and I still don't understand. But I love Instagram, and the only Apps that I mostly see that or that's target to me. I don't know why a luxurious cars, Villas, [inaudible 00:35:57] and cats. So obviously I'm in some target group there, but I don't even remotely see what kind of Ad I could do and who I target it to. Like it's so intimidating to me and I'm so like, "no, I don't want to waste all that money again." I don't even see what it would look like on Instagram. So hit me.
Kelly Doody: Okay. I'm like going like this because I'm like, "Oh because I like, "its my favorite nerdy topic right now." Again like art is great, right? And this is my problem with agencies is that I'm like, "you've guys we've got yes, beautiful photographers, videographers, graphic designers, animators, copywriters, headline expert, like yes." But we can all now do that." And if you're half good at it, and even what happened in our agency world is we... you have these clients that you're doing this for, "hey, we're content strategists now we're going to create your brilliant content, make you have all your A words shine, great." But after a while, that company hopefully figures that out and we're like, "we can do this awesome." That is where the agencies are not stepping up and we're marketers are so under-trained. And at least once a day I have someone email me and say, "hey Kelly, do you know any digital gurus, digital wizards?
Kelly Doody: And I'm like, "what you really mean as someone that can kill it for you on your Instagram, Facebook, Google Ads, right? With the side of SEO." With the side of SEO and they are like, "yeah, yeah that." So the thing about it is this none of these platforms are rocket science. And I say that because if they were then no Joe-blow like you and me would spend money on them and actually make Mark and his friends billions of dollars. And sadly for traditional media, this is where advertisers are spending their money because that's where the eyeballs are. When there's 2.2 billion people actively using Facebook every month, we better be advertising now and showing up there. And the more and more that the big multi-national companies like Proctor and Gamble and Ford Motor car. Everybody who advertises in the first 10 pages of Vogue magazine. Those guys are shifting more of their dollars away from Vogue and into Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn advertising.
Kelly Doody: But we can still do this at a super affordable way. So the way we do it is through Facebook Business Manager, right? Facebook Business Manager is not the same as a Business page. It is a platform-
Christine H.: So even If you're advertising on Instagram, you still want to use Facebook business manager?
Kelly Doody: That's right. The first thing you do is you add your... you connect your pages in your accounts, both Instagram and Facebook. Then you create your audiences, which you can create the most insanely. They're so good. They should be illegal. Like I can upload my email list and my subscribers and I can then target them on Instagram stories with an Ad. I can target... I can have a pixel firing them to my website, which takes four seconds to install. And then anybody who's been on my website on this particular page in the last 30 days, or they were on a year ago and haven't been back, or they landed on that checkout page but didn't buy or I can target them with an Ad. And now I have this beautiful way to move people again through my funnel, first of all, from awareness to action. But also I can then choose whatever placements I want. So this is everything from Facebook feeds to marketplace to Facebook Messenger, Facebook Stories, as well as Instagram feed, Instagram stories, Instagram... IGTV wherever I want to. So this is-
Christine H.: So you can advertise on IGTV?
Kelly Doody: Yes.
Kendra: Oh, very cool. I was not aware of that. I haven't been in my Facebook Ads dashboard in a while. That's so cool. Yeah. And when I was running Ads to stories, I did find that the story Ads were really high. They converted really highly and it was so easy. It was literally like a 15 second video of me being like, "hey, I got this free cheat sheets swipe up." And it was just like... it wasn't produced. It was just me walking around in my living room. And I think that works well because it kind of fits in with all the other stories. So it almost doesn't look like an Ad. And it converted so well and it was really cheap cost per lead.
Christine H.: Question, do you need to have an Instagram Business Account or can it be Personal Business Account? Because mine is on personal right now.
Kelly Doody: Yeah, now that's one of those little tricks they pulled on us, right? Same way we were all encouraged to have a Business page. I will say though that as a business, you get so much more insight about your audience as well as these business tools when you become a Business page. Does your organic reach go down? Yeah, it does. But at the same time, so has our personal reach and if we want to get really strategic as... and maybe it's not this year, maybe you're going to still use your personal feed in a way and you feel like it's effective and you're going experiment with content. And then you're going to start doing more of that whole right brain stuff. No way, I always confused those two.
Kelly Doody: But more of the backend stuff when you're ready to strategically advertise. And the first thing we always say is, "when it comes to paid reach and getting your content more seen as not that I exist to tell them when people who spend money on the internet by any means. However, I will be very frank and saying, "if you want to actually have results from your Social media, you need to be advertising on Facebook, Instagram or Google. It just is the way it is. It won't be seen. So start small, start with promoted posts, but don't just blindly boost a post for $20 to men and women who live in-
Christine H.: That the people who like this page. That's the worst audience ever.
Kelly Doody: Yes.
Christine H.: I'm like who are those people? You have no idea if it's the friends of the people who like your page or your ideal client. I think that's the only way more horrible [inaudible 00:41:13].
Kelly Doody: Yeah. And when you get a bit better at it, and I'm telling you it just takes a bit of time and commitment to the platform. You get really familiar with it and becomes super fun because for us, if we're going into Regina with a conference. If we spend $1,000 on Ads in Regina on both of those platforms and maybe some third party sites, which we can do as well. Then we expect to at least sell $10,000 worth of tickets. But generally we'll see not a 10X return, but like a 30X return and it's incredible. And if a certain Ad is not doing well and it's costing us more than 30 cents a Click through, then we'll turn it off and optimize the ones that are working.
Christine H.: Yeah. And I think it really comes down with, you got to know who you're talking to. You can't just blindly put some Ad out into the world that has no purpose. You don't know what the end goal is to a bunch of people who are random. And I know in our audience, they have a lot of resistance I guess towards like defining who they're actually talking to, defining their avatar. And this is something I talk about a lot but a lot of the coaches I work with, they just... they have analysis paralysis. Is that's it?
Kelly Doody: Yeah.
Christine H.: And they just can't figure it out. And I'm like, "just pick something, like test it." [crosstalk 00:42:23] You have talking to because if you just put out a random Ad to random group of people, you're wasting your money.
Kelly Doody: Totally. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Testing your content and then also testing any kind of investment you're making in the same way that maybe you still feel like Radio campaigns and Postcard Mail drops are working for you. Great, but if you don't actually have a stake in that and an interest in knowing, "well how many did that actually convert? I put a promo code on that postcard. Not one was redeemed." Okay, point noted. Versus maybe this campaign over here that I ran on Instagram or this just basic promoted post for $100. Not only did it garner me some conversions and traffic to my site, awesome. Because I'm paying attention to my Google Analytics and seeing where they came from. But I also got all these new followers and engagements and now these people are with me for hopefully likes, if I do a good job versus a one-off flat engagement with a postcard that I'm never going to see them again. So, yeah.
Kendra: Excited! 2020, I'm going to just see what I'll actually do 2020 but it's going to involve some Ads again. I'm going build up my trust again and just try. But not Facebook. I am not friends with Facebook but Instagram-
Christine H.: Well I think Instagram ads are a good opportunity. And I'm not sure if it's still like this but I know the IG Story Ads did... were pretty cheap. I was getting three cents a lead like that. Yeah. I wasn't even paying just a story. It's got me like 24k so, okay.
Kelly Doody: Yeah. And I still think there's a lot of organic opportunities on Instagram, but I think once you get to a certain part in your business, you need something that's reliable and that's really where the Ads come in. It's not just like bring it out and hoping, but actually knowing that this many people are going to see this Ad in the right group and then you can start predicting how much money you should bring in. Yeah.
Kendra: Especially depending if you have courses, which I feel a lot of our clients steal client, our listeners do or if you have products like supplements or anything like that, I think that is where it's hard. And just doing high end Ads might not be exactly that, but business mentoring might be. So you need to see what is your price point, what makes sense.
Kelly Doody: Yeah. And if you're doing it well and again, paying attention to the return that you're getting, excuse me. You get to a point where we're a small business as well. Like I have... we're a team of four, but we are going into new markets and we need to be taken seriously and we need to grow our... all the things, all the revenue, bottom line things everybody else does. And I'm at a point where I'm like, "if I had 17 credit cards that I can throw down on Instagram Ads every month, I would." Gary Vaynerchuk said this all whole day long. He was a very brush marketer from New York. But like down on these, because they're undervalued right now and under-utilized. And that's changing. The keywords that I used to bid on for marketing education Ads on Google. So Google Keyword Ad that might've cost me $2 in 2002 is now $36 to bid on for in 2019 are way more hundred dollars sometimes.
Kelly Doody: So Facebook's nowhere near that yet and Instagram. But as I said, as more and more people start to shift their dollars from traditional to digital, and I don't just mean a digital version of the newspaper. I mean like literally social norms, then these costs rise. But right now we're in this golden era of being able to really reach people magnificently and you will see return. It's terrifying when you start spending thousands of dollars monthly on Facebook and Instagram Ads, but when you're getting 20, $30,000 in sales or in leads as a result, why wouldn't you do it?
Christine H.: Yeah. I don't know who said this, but I heard someone say, "Don't be cheap with your dream." And I love that because yeah, if a lot of us, we build a business, it's our dream to work from home or retire our partners or whatever it is. We really, really want this. We're very emotionally tied to it. And you can't just do it for free. You have to invest in it if you care about it. So don't be a cheap ass.
Kelly Doody: That's right. And first learn how to do it so you don't just burn your money. But any one can learn this stuff. I know it feels overwhelming just like anything but pay someone to do it for Christ's sake. [crosstalk 00:46:30].
Kendra: If I don't want to do that. I'm just like, "no." But I really don't mind paying a good agency to do that job.
Christine H.: Totally.
Kelly Doody: Yeah. Or pay someone and like the great thing is you can learn all this shit on YouTube. Like there are so many great videos. I've learned a lot of what I know about Instagram by going on YouTube and like following specifically people who have a lot of knowledge on the topic. And just getting all those tips and tricks, trying it out, testing it, seeing if it works and going from there.
Christine H.: Exactly.
Kendra: Totally. Brilliant. Well that was my brain exploding kind of contents. I loved it. Thank you so much Kelly.
Kelly Doody: My pleasure. I really, really loved chatting with you guys and hopefully your listeners are likely in a place like many of our students where they're figuring it out themselves and then they're feeling pretty empowered by it.
Christine H.: Yeah. And they can either start hiring Kendra and I very soon. So we're going to do more on that in the future. And I'm just teasing [inaudible 00:47:26]. But... Or they can obviously get in touch with you. So Kendra and I hire our own guests on a regular basis.
Kendra: We hire them all the time. It's so funny. [crosstalk 00:47:39]. We need to hire this person.
Christine H.: Like I said, Kendra texts like, "I hired her." I'm like, "me too."
Kendra: Where can our students find out more about you Kelly? If they want to connect with you and Social school and what you do, how can they find you?
Kelly Doody: Thank you so much. Yeah, we're at socialschool.io. Inputs, Outputs is IO. And we have plenty of... we try to produce as much free content as we can that supports people. We'd like to be a resource first and foremost and the how-to-people. So try not to inspire but also equip. And we've got tons of courses that start $29 that are platform specific for Instagram for business, blogging for business. We have an IGTV course if you want more on that. And they go right up to digital and social media certifications and so-
Kendra: Amazing. I'll be checking into us courses like.
Kelly Doody: Thank you.
Kendra: I know it's like I stated it, "no, stop. Why didn't you finish that's 50,000 that I already have [crosstalk 00:48:32].
Christine H.: I love buying courses. I just love- [crosstalk 00:48:40].
Kelly Doody: Totally. We have one with some coaching along with, it's called our Guided Online Stream where the completion rates are very high and we hold you to it. We meet every week for webinars and quizzes and two days in office hours. Yeah. That's my favorite.
Christine H.: Yeah, it's good. I know a lot of people who... they're like "I own $30,000 of courses and I haven't completed one." And you're like, "Oh my God! you've got to finish those." Totally. I love it. Yeah. Aren't we funny?
Kelly Doody: Well thank you very much you guys. And there's a bunch of free resources too, I think it's at our website there. If you subscribe to our newsletter, you get access to our dashboard of tons of tip sheets and downloads.
Christine H.: That sounds juicy. We'll definitely link to that in the show news for this episode. Thank you so much Kelly. We really, really appreciate it. Thank you for hanging out with us and talking stuff and being ridiculous and laughing. We always appreciate it and thank you everyone for listening. Remember, if you liked this episode, make sure to screenshot it, share to your Instagram stories and let us know your take-homes. Let us know what you learned. And mention 360 help is podcast and we will share it back to our stories because we love Instagram.
Kendra: And leave us a five star review on iTunes, [inaudible 00:49:43] guys. We would love it.
Christine H.: We love your reviews and we will read it on air and give you a shout out and yeah. We will come at you again in another week with a Biz Bomb, which will be super juicy and it'll explode your brain. Take care.