Personal branding is THE most important thing in 2019 when it comes to marketing yourself and your business. While brand colours and fonts are important, no one connects with a logo, they want to connect with YOU as a human being and as a practitioner or health coach.
If you are worried that people won’t like you…won’t like that post you put up, then you need to work on yourself before you work on your business. Here’s why. We ALL have triggers in our businesses. Our last episode with Lori Kennedy talked all about this and we talk about it again today…your business WILL bring out insecurities that you may or may not realize you have. As Kendra puts it, she sometimes feels like she’s “still that girl in high school who's wondering if anyone's going to show up to my party”. So you need to make sure you have your support team to support you, so you can support others.
But let’s get back to personal brand. When you show up authentically, fearlessly, genuinely, and honestly….ladies and gentlemen, you have your brand. But don’t expect it to happen overnight. And if you’re just starting out, don’t expect it to stay the same. Often time our clients can actually shift our brand and our niche! It's not like you're just going to listen to this episode and know exactly what to do. It's going to be a work in process. You're going to make some mistakes. You're going to have to switch things and change things and revamp things. It's always a work in progress, but in the end just don't try to be who you think you should be, just be you. Just be who you are, exactly how you would in everyday life.
So how can you make your brand you? Kendra and Christine offer some great tips in today’s episode including how to make your Instagram more searchable, which platforms you should be on, ways to discover what your brand is (hint JOURNALLING!) and if you decide you can’t do it yourself and need a brand coach – what to look for in a brand coach.
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Kendra Perry: Yo yo. What's up? 360 Health Biz [inaudible 00:00:04]. I'm trying to channel Brandon [Boomer 00:00:07], because he's always like "What's up holistic [inaudible 00:00:09] [savage tribe 00:00:09]?" What's up every one! Welcome to another episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I am your first host, Kendra Perry, and I am joined by Christine Hansen who, we actually haven't hung out in a while, Christine.
Christine: I know its been like, I texted you, so it's like, "I miss you. It's been too long."
Kendra Perry: Yeah, we haven't recorded an episode in a while so we're super excited to hang out with you guys today. And we're talking about a topic that is so important. It's so, so important. And a lot of health coaches don't get it, right?
Christine: To be blunt, it's like duh, but no ... it's very true. And I think that Kendra and I both didn't get it for a long time.
Kendra Perry: Oh yeah. I only really got it like a year ago, I swear.
Christine: I agree.
Kendra Perry: It's something that's kind of like ... it's not super tangible, you have to kind of really think about it and kind of know what you're doing. But we're going to be talking about branding and personal branding. And the reason why we want to talk about this is because maybe in 2017 this was less important. Maybe in 2018 it was important but not the primary thing, but in 2019, it is like the [inaudible 00:01:16], you have to be successful. You need to have a personal brand. And in order to do that you actually have to know what that is.
Christine: Totally. So we're going to talk about that. We're going to give examples about how you get there, what to watch out for. Also maybe if you hire someone, you know what you should look out for. But first, we want to shout out a very special thank you to [Kimmy Classon 00:01:38], because she wrote us a five star review on iTunes. We love you.
Kendra Perry: We love you.
Christine: So here's what she's saying. "I'm not even a health coach and I love this podcast." Like this seriously, just the [inaudible 00:01:51] is just like makes my heart sick. "I use all the actionable steps in my business and they worked magic and momentum in my mission. I feel empowered that I too can build my biz of my dreams when I listen to these ladies and their amazing guests. So helpful. Thank you."
Kendra Perry: Thank you Kimmy. And I actually know Kimmy, and she's a sustainability coach. So she's done some really cool work with sustainability and climate change so follow her on Instagram.
Christine: I tip my invisible hat to you Kimmy. Like seriously. Amazing business. We're super happy that we can help. And actually, I'm going to drop a little teaser here because Kendra and I, we're working on something where we might be able to help you even a lot more in the future. So stay tuned. Just throwing that out there.
Kendra Perry: Just dropping the seeds, dropping the seed, shameless plug, shameless plug.
Christine: Totally. There you go, that's psychology, baby. Listen to that.
Kendra Perry: Totally.
Christine: Yes, branding. So I think we have to talk a little bit about what branding used to be. So we are the same age pretty much. And I think branding for a long time used to be the logo of MTV or Nike or McDonald's.
Kendra Perry: Like the colors, the font, you know. Visual, the visual.
Christine: Exactly. And the same colors or the same font all the time. And it was pretty much the graphic, I would say.
Kendra Perry: The graphic was really, really important. The logo was really important. And I mean I stressed so much about my logo when I first [inaudible 00:03:32], and now I actually haven't updated my logo like the whole time I've had my business. I need to update it but it doesn't really matter that much, so I just don't care.
Christine: Exactly. Exactly. So we will focus, obviously if you have a product it's still a little bit different. But we will talk about us as people, as service providers, where your brand is something completely different. And please keep all of this in mind when you're also looking to hire something with your branding, because there are people who are trained in this, but there's also people who are used to work with companies, or are just a little bit outdated frankly, who will get it wrong.
Christine: Yes. Just a couple pointers on what to look out for. So as Kendra said, we were at this social media marketing conference, and even before we noticed how branding is completely different. It doesn't have to do with your font, in a way. It does, but the most important piece of the puzzle is actually yourself. And that makes a lot of people squeal inside. It's like, "Oh no I don't want to. But I'm not special. I'm not cool. I'm not busy." Or whatever bullshit is in your head. And I think we're going to give you tangible action steps this episode. But I think the word that needs to go with branding, if you have your business and are selling yourself, and I want you to say that out loud actually, "I am selling myself." Without having the image of Pretty Woman and being a prostitute in your head.
Christine: Because a lot of time when we say this, "I'm selling myself." It's a connotation we just have, and it's bullshit. So I think the word that goes hand in hand with branding is personal development in a way, because you need to be you and you need to be authentic you. So I think the easiest is if Kendra and I are talking a little bit about our steps, so Kendra why don't you start a little bit with you're really, really happy with your brand right now, and it's totally is, so how did you get there?
Kendra Perry: Yeah, well I think ... well first of all was realizing that what people want these days, and we talked about this a little bit over the past few episodes that we recorded, people, they want to connect with you. We're in an era where social media is like a main way that we connect with people and it can feel really impersonal. So I think what people really are looking for is real human connection. They want to feel like they know you and that maybe they can be friends with you. And they want to feel like I could hang out with this chick. Like I really like her. She could be in my friend group and that would be awesome. And we would just hang and it would be cool.
Kendra Perry: And so I think for me the first thing was realizing that it's less about a brand so much as it is about a personal brand. You mentioned that with personal development, if you were a coach, and if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably a coach of some kind, whether it's a health coach or a fitness pro, whatever is is you're doing. You are your brand. So for me it was realizing that my brand is me, and I needed to stop faking what I thought people wanted to see me as, and be quote, unquote, "professional", and just be myself. And so that meant sharing more about me. So if you guys follow me you probably know that I'm really into the mountains and the outdoors, and I love adrenaline sports, right? So-
Christine: And crashing your bike, it's like [crosstalk 00:06:56]
Kendra Perry: Totally. Crashing my bike and wrecking my body. That's my thing, right? And so it was about figuring out how to infuse the things that are really important to me, my core values, which is being in nature, being in the mountains and pushing myself with sports, into my brand message and into what I'm actually doing with people. So it was taking a step back from just recording videos, with make up on, and looking all professional, and recording videos in my bike jersey. Or as I'm going for a walk or on the mountain bike trail, or whatever it is, and actually bringing that into what I do. So I think for me, it was just realizing that your brand is who you are.
Christine: I agree.
Kendra Perry: As a core human being. And what you stand for and your values. And it's not easy. It's not like you're just like, "This is me. This is what I stand for and I'm going to start combining my brand and who I am." It's a process, it takes time, and it takes a lot of deep personal work. Which I think comes back around to the personal development thing you were talking about Christine, right?
Christine: Yeah, and I think if both of us look at our history. I'm on website number four most likely. I love my website now but it's because I've changed it because I've grown. And it's fine. It took me three years to figure out who I am and what I want to do. I can confidently now say that I'm totally me and I love it, but it's not always been that great. So if you are a newbie coach, here's a little advice with love. Don't spend all your budget on a branding person yet. I would actually advertise you to keep it a little bit more generic in terms of clean and simple, rather than going all in, thinking you know who you are and thinking you know what your clients want and what resonates with them. Because I guarantee you, you will change again. And I'd rather use that budget on a coach or an energy worker, or whatever you are into, to help you figure out what makes you comfortable saying that sentence, "I am selling myself." Because if that doesn't feel comfortable to you, you have work to do. Until you get there, I'd budget more into that journey than necessarily the branding.
Kendra Perry: Yeah I completely agree, because the thing is you probably are going to change your niche. The niche that you start with, I would say more than likely you're going to change it at some point, right?
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kendra Perry: You've changed your niche once or twice. I've changed it like four times. And I think it's just because you're going to think, "Oh I really want to talk about this topic." You're going to get out there, and maybe you're going to get sick of talking about it, or maybe your interests are going to take you elsewhere. Or maybe the people who are following you are going to take you elsewhere, and that's okay. So I do think go light, pick a few colors and fonts, that's cool, whatever. And then just actually sit down and journal. Actually sit down and think about who you really are.
Kendra Perry: When you sit down ... and I'd like to give the person who I heard this from credit, but I can't remember where I heard this, but it's really good. It's like your brand is what people say about you when you're not around.
Christine: Oh yeah.
Kendra Perry: Isn't that good?
Christine: That's good. It's very good.
Kendra Perry: Because how would you describe me? Oh she's like crazy and off the cuff, and outgoing, and outdoorsy. It's my personality, right? It's how people would describe me. So think about what people would say. And if you don't know maybe you should ask your friends and family.
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And I would also be ... whatever triggers you, whatever makes you feel uncomfortable, that's the point you need to investigate. You need to figure out why. Is it actually you or is it someone else's voice in your head. Until you understand who you are and what is actually your authentic issue, you will not be confident enough, and authentic enough. Because authenticity cannot be faked. Having said that, I have kind of a double split persona in a way. So I like different things. I like to be completely glam. I am now, also really like to be sexy, but I also really like to hang out with sneakers and a et-shirt. And I sometimes make it a point to go to these networking points where you have suit guys and ladies in their pant suits and stuff, and I just show up in trousers and sneakers because I'm like screw all of you, I can do whatever I want.
Christine: So I have this double persona, but the way that I did it was, okay, this type of persona is great for my website in terms of the first impression, also because I charge a certain price point. But when I'm on video or when I do my Instagram stories, I'm very, very basic and down to Earth. And if you go to my Instagram you'll also see that my photo shoots are like that. Some are a little bit more posh and some are just with sneakers and a et-shirt and jeans. So they're all part of me, but I'm having to say it's always polished most of the time, but if you do charge a certain price point, you also, you don't have to, but it can help to appear in a certain way. Again, it's authentic to you though. I love my Louboutins. I Have to say I never wear them if I have to wear them for more than 10 minutes walking, but I look pretty damn hot when I do wear them. So it's like this double thing. But you need to own every piece of you. And I think, depending on what your business is, you push some of it forward for your website, but you need to be comfortable with it.
Christine: If you never wear shoes like that because you're uncomfortable or because you don't like the people who wear those shoes or whatever is coming with it, don't do it. Really, really don't do it. People smell it out. And I think in the end you need to remember that people will get to know you. They will buy your service and they will get to know you. And if it doesn't coincide, they will be disappointed. And damn, that's also how we have our dream clients because they connect with the authentic us. It's a take it or leave it thing. If you don't like the way we are, you know what you get, basically. We don't sell anything that's not authentic. And I think that's how you get the raving testimonials afterwards because people actually know you. And you didn't promise anything that didn't happen. And you didn't sell yourself as someone who you're not. So I think that's super, super important to understand.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I think it's a really good point. I was speaking with a coach the other day and she was getting frustrated with social media, and trying to show up as who she thought she should be, right? Which was what we were talking about in the beginning. And she's someone who has a big ranch, and she has horses. And I mean all her days are spent outside with the horses. And I was like, you need to do your videos in the field with your horses. And she's like, actually I did a video in her horse stall where she was picking up horse poop and talking about how the poop ... it's annoying to pick up, but it means her horses are healthy and stuff like that. And kind of weaving it into health and whatever. And she was like, "I felt really fired up in that video." I'm like, "Yeah. Because you're in your element." Right?
Kendra Perry: Just like Christine said, if you're not a fancy person, then don't do a photo shoot wearing all this makeup and a fancy dress.
Christine: No. Oh it looks horrible.
Kendra Perry: My photo shoots are action sports stuff. Me in casual wear. Sometimes I just have selfies with no make up on because half the time I'm in the forest biking and my make up is off my face. It's streaming down the side of my face because I just did a podcast and now I'm going biking and I'm sweating like a pig, right?
Kendra Perry: So I think it's about figuring out who you are, but showing that on your social media and on your website. People should really feel like, like Christine says, that it lines up. When they meet you in person you should be the same person. And people are going to feel like they know you and when they actually meet you they want to be like, "Oh wow. She's just like she is online."
Christine: Exactly. And it's so funny because I see people on Zoom, when I have my first sessions with them. And they're like, "Oh you actually look like you do in your photos. You look the same way." And I'm like, yes. Because they like, "Well, I've people when I saw them on their website and then I saw them on video and it's completely crazy."
Kendra Perry: Yeah, totally.
Christine: Hang on, just one second. It's raining and one of my windows closed automatically and the other one hasn't. So now I'm wondering if they all close automatically. Okay, it's fine, sorry.
Kendra Perry: Random, side note there.
Christine: Sorry, sorry. I just wouldn't want it to [inaudible 00:15:34] anything, but fine. Yes. So, no, I think that's really important. And that's also why I really want to say, if you want to work with a branding coach, which I think, at some point, you should do. Someone who writes the copy and someone who understands fonts, who just knows all of them, and who can tell you immediately this corresponds your persona. Here's a really important thing to keep in mind. First of all they need to understand what you do. Because yesterday I talked to someone, and she's doing, she's a licensed psychiatrist, but she's also working with meditation and energy work. When she was working with a branding coach, they had no idea what she was actually doing. And she was like, "Okay how is she supposed to ..." Sorry cat ...
Kendra Perry: Aww cute.
Christine: "How is she supposed to write or to represent me if she doesn't even know what I do?" So I think that's a big, red flag right there.
Christine: The other thing is that if, as soon as the coach or consultant, tries to fit you into a box, run for the hills. It's just not what they should do. They should listen and then they should work and design something upon it. They should not say, okay, I think you should be this and this and this, because this and this and this sells. Bullshit. I call bullshit.
Kendra Perry: I worked with a coach who kind of did something like that. And really pushed me into talking about weight loss. And I'm sorry but I hate weight loss. It's not ... I mean I don't feel like I'm someone who's like ... I'm fit but I don't have this ripped body, and I just hate the before and after photos of [crosstalk 00:17:17]
Kendra Perry: I feel like you attract, not always, but depending on how you position yourself, but you often attract people who want to just lose weight, and they don't care about their health. And that's something I'm interested in. But she really kind of pushed me into that space, and then when I launched what I had to launch, it totally flopped. And I think it was because I was super out of alignment with what I actually was doing. And I was like, I don't even want to do this. What am I doing? So you do have to be wary of that. And I think when you think about ... you obviously need to know ... we talk so much about knowing who your ideal client is and figuring out who you're talking to. That's a big part of brand building. You need to be specific, you need to know who you're trying to attract.
Kendra Perry: But you also want to know how do you want people to feel when they come into contact with your business. Like with Christine, if I'm an entrepreneur, a CEO, I might get that luxury, high end feel, and maybe that's what you want people to feel. And when people come to my business, they might feel inspired to go climb a mountain or they feel like, get this nature-y feel. You want them to have a feeling about your business, and that's ...
Kendra Perry: That's great.
Christine: No, I totally agree. I agree. And it's also, yes, for me I think if you're authentic, you will automatically attract the right clients. Like some will just Google, they find your website, and they schedule a call with you and they have no clue what you actually do. But I find the hardcore fans, usually they take some time, they stalk you for a while, and then they get in touch. And you have this perfect client-coach, expert, whatever dynamic. And they are ready then to spend money with you because they trust you, because you never lie, and because you're just authentic. And if you screw up, you screw up, and it's fine. And they know that it's human and that's it.
Christine: And I personally, I also, it's really funny because I worked with someone, and I admire her still, she's amazing. But in the beginning, three years ago, her branding was very subtle, and she was no make up or just tiny bits, and it was just, I loved it. Because at the time, I don't know if you remember, everyone had this gold written font and it was just about boss babe and personal glam, six figure, seven figures. There was gold everywhere and everyone was wearing these business dresses and big hair on the beach, that kind of thing. And she was just ... she had a black dress, she was very sober, and it was all about what she was saying. Super intelligent thing. I loved it because she was different because that's the way she was.
Christine: Now she has one of these photographers that I know shooting a lot of people who are pretty in in the industry right now, and they all look the same. And it's all over the top glitz and glam. And it's like everyone is one a unicorn boat, float thing. And I'm just like, I cannot have it with the graffiti in the background. Everyone looks the same now and it's not high end. It's just like an overblown ego. It's not the same. Development, becoming more confident, does not mean that your ego is taking over. I think that's also important to keep in mind.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really important to keep in mind. You really want to be true to yourself. It's not the easiest thing to do but it's easier in the long run because in the long run you're just yourself. You're not trying to develop this persona of someone who you aren't. I'm sure we've all met people in our life who we felt were fake. And we felt like they were hiding something or they weren't being their true selves, and something was off. And we didn't want to hang out with those people. So you don't want to be that person to your audience, right?
Kendra Perry: And I have a little list here because I think journaling can be really helpful. I think you can sit down and really consider this, but I have some questions you can ask yourself when you're journaling. And the first one is what are you unique qualities and strengths? We all have them, we all have unique parts about our personalities. We all have unique strengths. And if that's a hard question for you to answer, like I said, talk to your friends and family. Sit down with your bestie. They might help you see a side of you that maybe is less obvious to yourself.
Kendra Perry: What are five words that your friends would use to describe you? Again, you can talk to your friends, right? What are your core values? What do you stand for in your business? How do people benefit from working with you? And how do you want people to feel after they come into contact with your business?
Kendra Perry: Really, really think about this. Do some journaling. And you might have some big aha moments. Because the truth is we all are unique, individual people. And these days people don't want the cookie cutter approach. They don't want some monotone practitioner in front of a camera being super professional, with no emotion and no personality. People are not going to watch that video.
Kendra Perry: If you're someone who likes to crack inappropriate jokes, crack inappropriate jokes. If you like to say fuck, say fuck. I say it all the time and it's honestly, it can be very polarizing. I mean people hate me for it. I get people ... it's the most common thing that people write to me and tell me to watch my mouth and I have a dirty mouth. But I don't care. If they hung out with me in person they would probably be like, "This girl swears to much and I don't want to hang out with her." Whatever, right? It's okay. There's someone else out there for them. It's not me and it doesn't need to be.
Christine: Perfect. I totally agree.
Kendra Perry: We like to say fuck.
Christine: A lot. And it's a great thing. I don't know why people are so offended. It's super great. Awesome.
Christine: But there was something else I wanted to say and it slipped my mind so let's continue because I-
Kendra Perry: Okay. Well I wanted to talk a little bit about Instagram because we really love Instagram right now. And honestly, in terms of a social media platform I do think it's probably one of the best ones to build a personal brand. It's very visual. There's a lot of ways you can share content. You can post in your feed, you can do Instagram stories, you can do IGTV, you can do Instagram live. Literally, there's four different ways to interact on Instagram, and they're all different ways to show your personalities. But I have some crazy pet peeves when it comes to Instagram. And I wanted to just talk about this quickly.
Kendra Perry: So you can do an experiment. Click on the people who you're following or people who are following you. And scroll down and look at the accounts that you're most likely to want to click into and learn more about. I almost guarantee it's not someone who's using a logo as their image, their profile picture. When I see a logo, I don't want to click into that at all. There's nothing. There's no human connection. I have no connection to a graphic or a logo. But when I see a cool picture of someone, I'm like, "Ooo, what does that chick do? Oh what does that dude do?" So I think-
Christine: Exactly. I mean the exception to the rule is obviously if you have a product or if you are like Mont Blanc of something like that, sure, use your logo. But let's talk about us people. Don't use your logo. Who cares?
Kendra Perry: Nobody cares about your logo and there's no connection there. Even if our Instagram handle or your business name is not your name, you are still your brand. So you have to have a photo there.
Kendra Perry: And then next of all your name, if your handle is like "climbtothetopwellness", I don't know, that's a weird business.
Christine: Or "sleeplikeabus".
Kendra Perry: Yeah, or "sleeplikeabus". You are still your brand so your name has to be somewhere in your bio. Because just think of it this way, imagine you have a logo and your names not in your bio. And then you DM somebody, like an ideal client to try to connect. They're going to be like ...
Christine: Who's that?
Kendra Perry: They're not going to follow you. You're not even a human.
Kendra Perry: And then the other thing is maybe I scroll down your feed and you don't even show up anywhere on your feed. There's no photos of you.
Christine: I hate that. I cannot stand it. These meme things, where people only put their memes of things. No. I would never hire you. I don't know who you are. I don't see you. I only see memes. I only see quotes, but who are you? It just tells me that your self-confidence is down the toilet, why would I want to learn from you? Sorry.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Like you, honestly, I think like every second photo ...
Christine: It is. It's my strategy.
Kendra Perry: [crosstalk 00:25:42] I see you. And I mean it actually makes your Instagram look really visual, when you just do like photo of you, and then maybe you can do your quote or your meme, something with like white space.
Christine: Exactly. Or whatever.
Kendra Perry: You could literally show up everyday on your feed. And I know it feels very narcissistic, but it's actually what people want from you. Those photos are going to do better, so from an Instagram perspective, you need to make it clear who you are. People need to go to your thing and see your photo and see your name. And then obviously see what they do, but I feel like I'm like a broken record. I've talked about this so much and I just see it so much. Like people who [crosstalk 00:26:18] health coaching, advice and marketing. And I'm just like, oh my god, I go on your profile [crosstalk 00:26:26] there, your photo's not there. You just have a list of all the schools you went to and your certifications.
Christine: Nobody cares.
Kendra Perry: Nobody cares.
Christine: Agreed. And you're much more searchable. So when people ask me how do I find you on Instagram, I tell them you can either look for "Christine Hansen" because my name is "Christine Hansen Sleep Expert", or you can look for "sleeplikeabus" because that's my handle. So you will find me whatever you type, which is amazing. So people do it. Use your name. I would suggest use your name and your business title. And just decide is your name going to be your business name or is your handle going to be whatever. But that way you're searchable twice, which is super cool.
Christine: The other thing is if you do want your credentials, just line a couple and then say dot, dot, dot. Like for example in my bio, I say that I've been featured in National Geographic books, et cetera. So even I have this little space available, I just do dot, dot, dot, but it's really, really helpful. Then a greet, use your personal picture and a quote or a blog or something like that.
Christine: And here's another tip, what I do ... because I use a personal picture every second day during the week. And Kendra and I did this for our pictures, whenever we go traveling, we go to Airbnb Experiences and book a photo shoot. And they're usually around 80 bucks, and you get 20 to 25 pictures is the norm, I think. And you get great pictures, like really great photographers out there. And they're perfect for Instagram and drop posts and so forth. So it's not expensive. It doesn't break the bank. And you can constantly feed fresh photos into your feed. It's Instagram, people are there because it's a visual platform, get over yourself.
Kendra Perry: Take good photos, right? Yeah, we started doing that ... I don't know, not that long ago. But our branch shoot that we did for the podcast, we just did it in San Diego on the beach with this photographer who seemed really introverted and not confident. And I was like, "Oh I don't know how this is going to go." But they were great photos. Really, really. And tons of them, right?
Kendra Perry: And it cost us like a hundred bucks or something.
Christine: Not even. Not even. And it doesn't even need to be ... like I like to have a photographer do photos because I don't know who else I would ask all the time, but if you go to see celebrities, like Reese Witherspoon, she does have some of her old photos, that were new ones, but she had a lot of photos that friends took with their iPhones, of her. Obviously she knows how to pose but it just goes to show you don't always need the professional angle. If you have someone, I don't know, a boyfriend or just a friend you hang out with, or a partner or whatever, or just a good friend, and where ever you are, you ask them can you take a picture of me, don't feel uncomfortable about it. Just say it's for my job. You can even do it with your iPhone or whatever smart phone you have. The camera's are so good nowadays.
Kendra Perry: They're so good.
Christine: The portrait mode, hello.
Kendra Perry: Hello portrait mode.
Christine: How much you can do, it's crazy.
Kendra Perry: It's such a good point because if you go on my feed, there's some photos on there that are processional, but there's a lot of photos that are literally just taken with my Google phone or my boyfriend's Google phone, and it's a really good, high quality camera. Now I also have a little tripod for my phone, so when I go places, I might just put on the timer and get a quick photo of me doing something. Actually, I posted an Instagram post on the editing eps that I use, but maybe that would be a good episode for an upcoming Biz Bomb episode, because I have like two apps that I pull things into that will take a photo that's pretty average, and I have my pre-set, and then I clean up my complexion and I clean up the colors, and suddenly it's a professional photo. It doesn't need to be a big deal. And in the end even selfies are better than not being on your feed.
Christine: Absolutely. And I would advocate that you have some kind of structure on your feed, and anything that you want to throw out there is your stories. That's how I handle it. So if I take a crazy selfie or just some snap shots from when I'm out and about, I still evaluate what I put into my stories, it's always personal. Usually it's my personal life and just showing ... because again it's part of my brand. When I travel first class it's part of my brand. It's who I am, it's what I sell. But also when I'm in the bathtub with my new kittens, that's also kind of who I am.
Christine: And you use it even more for marketing. I haven't done it quite as much yet. So there's so much wiggle room, as long as you stay true to yourself. So use gifs that you would usually use, use emojis that you would usually use. The fonts, there are so many different ones that you can use. They all have pros and cons I find, but use colors that you would use, that you find pretty. Just use things that you find attractive and I find that you are already on brand.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and it's a good point with Instagram Stories because when it comes to personal branding, and I think we're both on board with this Christine, is that we really think you need to use video to build a brand, right?
Christine: My god yes.
Kendra Perry: It's really hard to push out your personality on a blog post, on social media posts.
Christine: Unless you're a super good writer.
Kendra Perry: Unless you're the most amazing writer in the world.
Christine: But even then people get sick of that.
Kendra Perry: They want to see you, right?
Christine: Exactly. And they combine it. I'm a huge [Laura Bell Grey 00:31:56] fan. I worked with her a couple of times. And her [inaudible 00:32:00] are amazing. They're full of her personality, and she just does it because she's amazingly talented. But even so, she still uses photos too. But she manages to ... she's so talented it's crazy. Not a lot of people are. Just don't consider yourself to be as talented I would say.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and there's so many ways to share video content these days. And I think people get really uncomfortable and nervous about live video, but if you're not comfortable on life video, you can still share pre-recorded video. Instagram Stories is all pre-recorded video. IGTV, which is the biggest bang for your buck for engagement on Instagram right now, like seriously, it is the biggest bang for your buck. I'm getting like six times more engagement on my IGTV videos than I am on feed posts right now, and even Instagram Stories. Instagram really wants to push it. And it's a pre-recorded video, maximum 10 minutes. What a great amount of time to get super to the point but actually teach and educate people.
Christine: Exactly. And I expect that your Instagram feed is going to be like your mini-website and your IGTV is what Instagram is pushing for, like I really think that's video and so forth.
Christine: And a little trick that I have because I never expect to actually watch or listen to whenever I do a video or a podcast, so whenever they do I'm super surprised and that's not a lie. Because I just assume, and Kendra and I are just recording this, but I actually don't ... well I do believe it, I know it's true, but I never have, in the back of my head, that you guys will actually watch all of [inaudible 00:33:41]. So whenever I speak with you I'm just like, "Oh god this is so embarrassing, you actually listen?" It's really weird, so I kind of bubble myself into that world and that's how it works for me. But I think that's something you could do. Just assume nobody's ever going to watch it.
Kendra Perry: I mean in the end, especially when you're new, probably not a lot of people are going to be watching it anyways. And I think it's really important, with video, like it's not something that we both came into the world being good at. If you go back, I'm sure, and look at Christine's early videos or my early Facebook lives, it's like not the same person because I was not comfortable. The first time I went live on video was Periscope when that used to be a thing.
Christine: Oh my god, it was so embarrassing.
Kendra Perry: I know, I hated it because I go live on this video. I'm like, been nervous all day. I've created this whole script. I'm so, so, so nervous. And then all I'm getting is comments being like, "Nice pitch, show your boobs."
Christine: Show your boobs. Yes.
Kendra Perry: And I'm like what is happening, what is happening? I'm trying to talk about adrenal fatigue, what's happening? I don't know why all the perverts were on Periscope, but that's where they hung out.
Christine: Yeah, agreed.
Kendra Perry: Luckily you don't have to deal with that on Facebook live. But I think it's something that you will never be good at unless you do it consistently. You've got to do it all the time. And eventually ... like I never would have thought that I could just hop onto live video with no preparation and just talk about a subject at length. I never would have thought I would do that, but now I can, because I've probably put out 300 live videos at this point in my career, right?
Christine: Yes. Yes. And also again, if I look at my first videos, I feel comfortable with it, it's because I always taught and always done things like that, but I wasn't myself in the beginning. I still have straightened hair and all kinds of bullshit. But now you just see me with bed hair.
Kendra Perry: I feel like you're in your bed when you record at the time.
Christine: I am actually. I actually am. And you'll see my headboard or I'm in my hotel room and I just rolled out of bed. And it's not even having make up on. And it doesn't matter. And funny enough, I sometimes feel that the videos I shoot off location, so without studio lights and here in my office, but I do spontaneously at an airport or in my hotel room, so very often those will get the most resonance. So mix it up. Keep it professional but also don't be afraid to just impromptu shoot a video. Because you can, you have your phone with you. There's nothing else you need.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, absolutely. And something also that's kind of cool too, is I think YouTube just introduced vertical video. So if you're making an IGTV video, with is just going to be vertical, like you holding your phone, you can actually just upload it to YouTube as well, straight from a YouTube app on your phone. So that's something they just rolled out. So repurposed content, right, is a really good way to ...
Kendra Perry: Hope I won't go crazy.
Christine: Exactly. So watch out or listen to our episode with Jamie Palmer, I think it's the second or third episode on our podcast ever. It's still one of my favorites. And [inaudible 00:36:47] and I work with Jamie actually.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, we do. We love Jamie.
Christine: We love her. But its changed both of our businesses tremendously. So go and have a look at that. When you know who you are, when your branding is ready, then go and have a look at that.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and especially when you're new. I know it's easy to compare yourself to other people, like if you go check out, like my business you'll see that I'm on all the social media platforms, but I also have a team. I have a team of people who does that. When you're new and starting out, you can't make specific content for every platform. You need to choose one platform that you know that's where your ideal client is hanging out, and maybe it's a platform that you actually enjoy using, and then just try to make one piece of content each week, and then you repurpose, right? And you put it out on other platforms. But this is a little bit off topic, but it's also [crosstalk 00:37:32].
Christine: The only other thing also that I want to say, and you just said it, that don't try to be like other people, is that sometimes people say look at what other people do in your industry. And I would actually highly encourage you against that. Because you are different. And for example, I don't have a problem training people at what I do and become a member of my team, because I know that even if five of us do exactly the same thing, and they are going to, whoever the potential client is, is going to resonate with someone different. And I see it because one of mentees just used my tagline. And I told her she could use part of it, not all of it. But it doesn't actually suit here. Because when you talk to her, she isn't like that. So whenever I work with my mentees, although we use the same structure and we have the same business, they all have a different person they are drawn to and that they naturally connect with.
Christine: And I ask them that, you know? "Who are the people who usually open up to you? Who are the people that just when you are in a room with people, who you just suddenly sit somewhere, offside, having a beer with and just a great conversation. Who are they?" Those are the people who are you, who you naturally resonate with. So don't use copy from someone else's website. Even if you just change it a little bit. It's not you. Whenever you're you, it's your brand, it's your voice, it's your aesthetic. The same as I find some very sleek fonts very nice, whereas others are more for the brushstroke kind of thing. You need to go with what belongs to you, what you would wear if you could put it on. And if you had a fashion show to go to to represent you, what would you feel most comfortable in, that's you.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I agree.
Christine: But don't copy it, it's not going to work.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I think people, you want to write your copy and write your social media posts exactly like you would talk. How would you actually talk? If you were just going to write that social media post, no one's going to see it as a journal entry, like what would it actually look like. And I think the biggest compliment you can get is when someone's like, "I already feel like I know you." I get that with my strategy sessions with the coaches, and they're like, "I feel like I already know you." They don't realize it but that's the best compliment that anyone can give me because that means that what I'm doing is working, right?
Christine: Exactly. Exactly. And don't hide yourself. Don't pretend to be anything that you're not. And I noticed it a lot recently, the latest podcast interviews that I've done, and I've done quite a few in the last two to three months. People love them. And it's not me just saying that. I literally had three people get back to me yesterday about three different podcast interviews, and saying, "This was such a great episode." And it's episodes where I talk about how I changed, how, yes, my marriage ended. But also how I made money, the crosses I had to go through, the ugly sides, but also everything I believe in, which might be sometimes uncomfortable. And just being, not vulnerability alert, blah, blah, blah, but just like I'm not better than you just because sometimes things were hard, this is just what it's like. I'm being very honest.
Christine: And I think that's the other thing, when you're journaling or whenever something triggers you, always ask yourself am I honest right here? Honesty is the most important word that you can have in your life. I honestly ... I honestly believe that. I really think so.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I mean I love that. Honesty. It's so true. Like we said, it doesn't happen overnight. It's not like you're just going to listen to this episode and know exactly what to do. It's going to be a work in process. You're going to make some mistakes. You're going to have to switch things and change things and revamp things. It's always a work in progress, but in the end just don't try to be who you think you should be, just be you. Just be who you are, exactly how you would in everyday life.
Christine: Agreed. And I just want to do a little bonus thing here. I just really quickly want to share the people and the tools that helped me the most. And you can do too, Kendra.
Kendra Perry: Sure.
Christine: But one thing that I'm sharing all the time, listen to my podcast interviews, is Tapping Into Wealth, by Margaret Lynch. If you want to be comfortable with money and selling yourself, then I've worked with a couple of different coaches. But one that I'm still working with regularly is [Halinda 00:42:04] Moors, so Moors M-O-O-R-S. She's my energy, quantum field kind of person. I still don't know how it works exactly, but it works. I also work with Heather Jones, she's an EFT practitioner that really helped. I worked with Amber Dugger, my financial coach.
Kendra Perry: We had her on the podcast. She's on like a [inaudible 00:42:22] episode.
Christine: She's amazing.
Kendra Perry: Check it out.
Christine: Check it out. [Katimonstas 00:42:26] Peters is also ... she's a witch, really. She's amazing. Check it out. She's fantastic, helped me a lot. So I work with [Meryl Creeksman 00:42:36]. She's changed her business so she doesn't offer the same package that I used to do. And then those were I think, personal development wise, huge. And also Doctor Drema Dial. She's a psychologist and she's helped me a lot too. And [Robin Collette 00:42:53]. So you can see I work and get help from a lot of different people. But you meet people when you're supposed to meet them. And they've helped me tremendously over the last time. And you cannot do it alone. I think that's the message. And I would have saved so much money if I had worked, well more, on my own personal development earlier.
Kendra Perry: I agree.
Christine: And it never stops.
Kendra Perry: It never stops. Yeah like I always talk about having three counselors. For talk therapy, I see someone for trauma release, and then me and my partner see a couples counselor even though our relationship is great, because we work on prevention, right? And just continually learn how to better communicate with each other. But the counseling has been a big thing for me because you do get triggered in your business. It will bring out all your biggest insecurities. Every time I launch something, I'm still that girl in high school who's wondering if anyone's going to show up to my party, right?
Christine: I know because you tell me and it's adorable. And I'm like, "Kendra, chill." Is anyone going to show up to my party?
Kendra Perry: I know. It's funny but I get triggered from high school because I was bullied, I had really toxic female friends in my life. I've actually seen some of that, those feelings in high school come up recently in my business, especially in relation to internet trolls. That's something I've been dealing within my business recently. So I called up my counselor and I was like, "I'm ready to deal with the high school shit. Let's go four sessions and let's go for it." I don't want some stranger on the internet who hates their life, who just wants to spew negativity at me, affect me the way that it affects me. It really affects me and it has nothing to do with me. So I can tell that it's triggering high school Kendra.
Christine: Exactly. And then you cry, it's hard, it sucks, you're sick for two days, and then you get through it.
Kendra Perry: That's right. And you learn to recognize it. Those feelings are still going to come up, you're still going to feel that triggering sensation, but when you do the personal work and you actually grow and start to heal, you're able to step back from it and be like, "Okay, that's triggering me. Why is that triggering me? Okay cool. These are the tools that I have so that I don't go into fight or flight."
Christine: Exactly. And that's when you show up authentically, fearlessly, genuinely, honestly, and that, ladies and gentlemen, is your brand.
Christine: All right. Juicy, juicy stuff girl. Now I have like goosebumps all over.
Kendra Perry: I know, I'm sweating, but it's actually [crosstalk 00:45:31]
Christine: I know. [crosstalk 00:45:35] I hope they can't see the little sweat things on my noose.
Kendra Perry: I'm glad everyone can't see my boob sweat.
Christine: My god. No I like, I have the weirdest sweat spot, it's under my lip and on my nose. Like I swear all the glands are on my nose.
Kendra Perry: I get the sweat mustache.
Kendra Perry: All right guys, thank you so much for putting up with us as always. We're always completely blown away when you want to hang out with us. It's like so weird. But what I am going to say? Oh yeah, if you like this episode and you are an Instagram user, screenshot this episode on Instagram, share it to your stories, and tell us your biggest take home. And we will share your stories, to our story, because we love Instagram, and we love Instagram Stories. And if you don't use Instagram, just go give us a five star review on iTunes. No big deal, no big deal. [inaudible 00:46:27]
Christine: It would make us very, very happy.
Kendra Perry: Yeah it will. And we'll read it on air.
Christine: Yes, yes. Absolutely. All right. Have a great time every one and we'll talk to you in two weeks.
Storytelling is not longer just about Cinderella and her glass slipper. No, storytelling is an integral part of your business and influencing your business’s brand. As Jamie Jensen shares in this episode, storytelling is the most human and natural thing you can do for your business. Find out how to use your story to develop your brand and where to use it. You don’t have to have just one story – you can be extremely successful with mini stories and multiple different stories. Tune in to learn about the building blocks to a good story…you’ll want to have a pen and paper handy for this one!
We cannot stop gushing over our amazingly talented guest in this episode. Jamie Jensen is an award-winning screenwriter, business strategist, and the creator of Story School. To date, she’s helped over 700 entrepreneurs increase their sales by up to 900% with the power of effective storytelling. Prior to helping business leaders connect deeply with their audiences through copy, video, and talks, Jamie worked in story development in Hollywood, assisting writers in both film & television. Jamie is the co-director and executive producer of the feature film “Hannah Has a Ho-Phase,” which won her the “Best Feature Writer” award at La Femme Film Festival in 2013, and she most recently completed her 9th feature-length screenplay.
Connect with Jamie Jensen
Get Jamie’s free All About Your About Page workbook at howtowriteanaboutpage.com
Grab our Ultimate Health Coaching Tool Kit complete with our top picks for platforms plus our sample contract and intake form: http://360healthbizpodcast.com
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Kendra Perry: Hello everyone. Welcome to another amazing episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I'm Kendra Perry and I'm hanging out with my incredibly sexy and amazing and hilarious-
Christine: Totally, guys. I totally feel it.
Kendra Perry: ... cohost. Christine's here with her beer because she says it's after 5:00am and she [inaudible 00:00:27].
Christine: Okay. Well, now I can just have a sip right? Because I was going to do it on the low key but okay, fine.
Kendra Perry: You know what? Just go for it. Let's just be yourself.
Christine: It's 5:00 going 6:00. That's totally acceptable in Europe. I don't know but ...
Kendra Perry: I think it's totally acceptable. It's like 8:00 AM here, but, you know, it's all good. I've got my coffee. You got your beer. So-
Christine: See? There you go.
Kendra Perry: ... this is how we [inaudible 00:00:44]. Awesome. So guys, we have a really good show for you today. We're going to be talking about copywriting and storytelling. As you guys know, we were just at Social Media Marketing World in San Diego about a month ago now. A big theme of the conference was storytelling. Everyone was talking about how important it is to weave your story into your brand and into your message and we loved it. We actually did a couple of storytelling workshops.
Kendra Perry: After we got this message I was like, "Okay, we need to get someone on for storytelling" and I thought of Jamie Jensen because she is an award-winning screenwriter, business strategist and the creator of Story School. To date, she's helped over 700 entrepreneurs increase their sales by up to 900%-
Kendra Perry: ... with the power of effective storytelling. That's pretty crazy.
Christine: That's an impressive number, dude.
Kendra Perry: Prior to helping business leaders connect deeply with their audiences through copy, video and talks, Jamie worked in story development in Hollywood assisting writers in both film and television. She is the co-director and executive producer of the feature film Hannah Has A Ho-Phase. Interesting. I'm like, what's that about? Which won her the Best Feature Writer Award at La Femme Film Festival in 2013. She most recently completed her ninth feature-length screenplay. Jamie, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.
Jamie Jensen: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Kendra Perry: So tell me, what is Hannah Has A Ho-Phase. What's a ho phase? I'm so intrigued.
Jamie Jensen: It's a phase-
Christine: A ho phase or a whole face? Like it's just [inaudible 00:02:15]-?
Jamie Jensen: No. Like it's a phase when you're being a ho.
Christine: Oh I ... You know what? I understood she has a whole face. Like a whole W-H ... I was like, "Well what if you don't have a whole face? Do you have a half a face? Like what does that mean?" So, okay, got it. I'm on your level now.
Jamie Jensen: You know what?
Christine: We've all had a-
Jamie Jensen: It's a raunchy, romantic comedy so that's what it's about.
Kendra Perry: I think that's fantastic. I had a ho phase once so ... I've had a couple actually so-
Jamie Jensen: Oh dude [crosstalk 00:02:43].
Kendra Perry: ... I would probably really relate to this. Whoo hoo.
Christine: Who hasn't had a ho phase? I mean really?
Kendra Perry: So I-
Christine: Very poor people I guess. Very ... I don't know. People who are very stuck up.
Kendra Perry: No it's some such an interesting bio, Jamie. I love how you did the storytelling and storywriting for Hollywood. How did you transition into working with creatives and entrepreneurs online?
Jamie Jensen: Yeah, I mean I still do all of it to be honest. It wasn't like, oh, I ... It's more of just adding. It's adding more of what I do and taking a lot of the expertise that I have, not just from studying storytelling in like a formal way, but also from, you know, the business of film, which is ... My masters is in producing and so it's very much the business of content. So you have to look at marketing as a piece of the picture and a piece of, you know, everything that you're creating. You have to be asking yourself like, "How is this marketable?" As you're developing yourself as a writer, as a screenwriter in Hollywood, you're always looking at like, “Well, what's your brand? What's your voice? What makes you marketable? What makes you an enticing package?”
Jamie Jensen: When we're looking at people who are marketing themselves online, whether they're doing a lifestyle business and it's ... they're the brand, you kind of have to ask the same questions.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Jamie Jensen: So it really wasn't ... It was really a natural transition for me to start supporting entrepreneurs. The way that it happened ... and what's funny is my dad was an entrepreneur, so I actually grew up with like learning about sales and learning about direct response copy and learning about a lot of the stuff that I ended up applying to my business and then to other people's businesses.
Jamie Jensen: But really the way that I got started was, I was writing for everyone around me. You know, people were coming to me asking for help with their website copy. I was that go-to person that, "Oh well I have to write a bio on my website. I have to write a this. I have to write a that." So I just kind of became that go-to person for people in my circles. It eventually dawned on me that that was probably the business I should be starting.
Christine: That's a lot of money in there. Like [inaudible 00:04:44] it's like something where I don't skip on. Like where I don't really don't really care what the price tag is to some extent. It's so key. So I'm really excited to hear, you know, how you teach this as well because I find to some extent you can have talent or you can't, but it's ... So it's really going to be interesting to see what your main takeaways are for our listeners today as far as you can reveal your secrets. So it's going to good. So yeah, let's go ahead.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. Well I'd love to know like I know our listeners are probably thinking like, "Why do I need a story? I have a business." Why is it important to have a story in business?
Jamie Jensen: So storytelling really is, and this is funny because this is one of the reasons why I'm obsessed with story and why it's been like my nerd obsession since I was a teenager really. It's the most human thing. It's completely natural. It's completely human and everything that you ultimately end up learning about a story when you really study it is how it speaks to the human condition.
Jamie Jensen: The reason that storytelling is so important in marketing and especially the way that you choose to engineer and tell your stories, is that it really is a bridge that connects one human to another human. When you're able to not just communicate your experience, your expertise, what you've been through, build evidence ... You know stories are how we communicate meaning, are how we communicate lessons. They're how we ... Really, it's the difference between having a really smart quote on Instagram where someone's like, "Oh my God, totally. Like, just let it go" right? Versus like watching Frozen and understanding what that really means, right? So it's like, it's a different emotional experience that allows a person to actually integrate what they're learning and make it part of themselves.
Jamie Jensen: So you could tell someone, "Oh, well, I help clients achieve XYZ" blah, blah, blah. So for example, for me, oh yeah, I've had a client. Like I helped my clients increase their sales by up to 900%", but what anchors that in reality is me telling you the story of my client, Lauren, and like how she created a program herself and how she wrote all of her own copy and how she had a hungry audience, but what she was doing wasn't communicating to them appropriately. So through the process we worked on together, which I'm not going to go into deep detail, but that's how we ended up increasing her sales. So really you're humanizing an experience and making it relevant to the person who's paying attention.
Jamie Jensen: The big reason that I'm obsessed with story and also why it's so important is like that's about emotional resonance. So where ... It's like ... I call it like you're communing with your audience because you're ... because they're seeing themselves in you and they're feeling themselves in you. It's not just like, "Oh, I want to achieve what they achieved." It's, "Oh, I can feel what they felt, like both the pain and the victory." Everyone wants to experience that for themselves. So when you can have that experience and really demonstrate results to somebody and possibilities to somebody in an emotional way, like that's when it really becomes real for them.
Christine: Totally. Makes Sense. So let me ask you a question because that's something that I struggled with and we've talked about this before, Kendra and I, which is that, we all have like ... I think in high school you even learn the typical hero's journey of the struggle and then the victory and climax and dah dah dah. What if you don't ... and for me it was an issue for a long time. It's that I don't have the typical hero's journey, right? So my niche is sleep. I've always been a good sleeper. Right? So that's ... It wasn't my personal struggle per se that I got into the business that I have. It's not like for example, a cancer survivor who managed to get much better through nutrition or something like that. I know for a lot of health coaches, a lot of them do have the personal hero's journey. But what about those who came into this business for a completely different reason and who are probably like, "Oh yeah. This is not going to work for me because I don't have this story." What do you ...
Jamie Jensen: That's a great question and it's one that I love answering.
Christine: [inaudible 00:08:44].
Jamie Jensen: So the way that you use the hero's journey in marketing isn't about always telling your own hero's journey. Sometimes it is, and sometimes you have a story that works and functions and beautifully matches up like perfect puzzle pieces with your customer's journey mirroring your journey. However, the goal isn't about establishing that your story mirrors their story. The goal with telling your story is establishing your character and your place in their journey, which means that your job can be, to be the person who's been down the road they want to walk down, but your job can also be the person who's the exact compliment and opposite of them. So your example is great because you're like, "I've always been a good sleeper".
Jamie Jensen: But another example I love to use is like, let's say that you help people design and develop websites and you're very tech savvy. Your clients are people who don't want to touch the backend of a WordPress website to save their life. Like it scares them. They're afraid they're going to break something. It's just not their genius zone. They're really good at what they do. They're not good at tech.
Jamie Jensen: Your journey's never going to mirror their journey. Your place in their story is helping them get where they want to go by being the expert they need to get there. So when you choose to tell your story, I'm sure that there are stories you could tell about how awkward it could be, because this is also just like a normal human thing. You don't feel like you belong because maybe you're the one person who is good at something that everyone else around you isn't, and that establishes who you are to everyone else who needs your support.
Jamie Jensen: So I always say, and I always ... I actually have a training. I don't even know where it is right now. Like I don't know if I have it prerecorded anywhere, about the four business stories that every business needs because most businesses have a version of, "I'm exactly like you. I've been exactly where you've been", but the other side of that is like, "I'm actually completely different from you and that's a great thing because I'm going to be able to help you with stuff that you can't help yourself with alone."
Christine: Perfect. Yeah, that makes total sense. You know? I think sometimes you just need a little bit of help with that because you're so close to it whenever you do write your story that having a framework or having someone who can just see what you don't see is super, super helpful, I reckon.
Jamie Jensen: Yeah. I think a lot of our people ... I think a lot of people in general, not you Christine, but a lot of people get into health coaching, the health industry because of their own stories. I think there's a lot of people out there in our audience who probably do have really amazing personal stories they can weave into it, but I feel like ... The thing I hear a lot is, people get into health coaching because yeah, they had their own health struggle, but they're not necessarily out the other end yet. You know what I mean? Like they're still in it.
Christine: [inaudible 00:11:32].
Kendra Perry: So I feel like people are scared to share it because it's not like, "Yeah, I have this personal health struggle, but now I'm good. I feel great. I have energy. I'm awesome." Like they're still in the depths of it. They still feel like shit. They still have whatever issue and I think that can be pretty powerful. What do you think? Like even if you haven't come out the other end, like that can probably be a really good connecting point too.
Jamie Jensen: I think so. I think that that's a perfectionism problem.
Kendra Perry: Right.
Jamie Jensen: I think that that's like a visibility problem and a perfectionism problem where you're afraid to just be real with your audience. You know, I think you can come along way in a journey and still not be where you want to go. The truth is that in life, that's really how it is. Like you can, "Oh I hit six figures in my business. Now I want to multiply that. Now I want to hit seven." Or, "Oh I ... " You know, whatever it is that you are looking at as external markers of results. Yes those things matter in marketing but the truth is that the purpose of your marketing story is to build that know, like and trust, you know, that love factor. It's to create that relationship development with your customer and for them to really feel like they know you.
Jamie Jensen: So my thing is like, be transparent. You know, the truth is that health isn't the type of thing where like we're done. Mental health and physical health, you're never done. You're never like, "Oh my God, I'm like the perfect statue of exactly what I want to be and I'm going to freeze time." Like, "This is my freeze frame." It's like health is something that we're constantly working on. It's not like ... I had a therapist in New York a few years ago and she's like, "You're never done. You're never like, 'Oh, all of my childhood wounds disappeared.'"
Kendra Perry: I'm healed.
Jamie Jensen: "Poof, they're gone. I eliminated them. I'm healed." I'm sorry. I know.
Christine: Unless you work with Jesus, it's like, I [inaudible 00:13:11].
Jamie Jensen: I mean-
Christine: Oh my God.
Kendra Perry: [crosstalk 00:13:14].
Jamie Jensen: Look, there are plenty of energy healers who are like, "I cleared it. It's gone forever." I'm like, "It's not ... That's not how the subconscious mind works, people."
Christine: No, no.
Jamie Jensen: That's fine, because you can always be improving. The truth is that if you don't take the step forward towards improving, then you're never really going to improve, like at all. But I do think that not sharing your story because you're not in perfect health is fine because no one's ever in complete perfect health. There's like actually no such thing. Yeah.
Christine: So tell us a little bit about how to use your story. So let's say that we have some listeners who are like, "Okay, I get it. It makes sense to tell my story. It's ultimately going to convert into [cashola 00:13:58] because people like me. They will trust me and hence they will finally sign up with me after stalking me for five years on my email list. But how do you-
Jamie Jensen: The long game strategy. This is long tail economics.
Christine: Just like so painful. Like how do you use it apart from let's say the obvious. So for me the obvious would be, okay, I work out of my story and then I have it on my website. Probably because I like video, I'd record it and I tell it that way. Probably have it in my copy on my website. How else can you use your story? What have you seen when working with people in ways that they've used, what they worked on with you and then kind of implemented it in different ways?
Jamie Jensen: Yeah, this is a great question. It's actually like, I've created a bit of a framework around this because I have people who do My Story School Program or who've come to me and they're like, "I know my story but I don't know how to use it and I don't know how to adapt it to platforms." So I'm just going to list off the platforms that I'm like, "These all need your story and the way you use your story in these platforms is going to be different for each platform." So obviously social media, your website, your About page. If you want to create a brand video script, I also highly recommend creating video scripts and shooting video for Facebook Ads, for funnels, written copy in your Facebook Ads? For sure. If you're going to do a talk, if you're going to build it into a book. Those are really ... I feel like those are the big ones. Speaking website, social media, book. Oh, and a webinar.
Kendra Perry: Webinar. Yeah.
Christine: So what would social media look like? So I would just be like, "Okay. I do one post" like ... Ugh, this is too cheesy. It grosses me out, but you know, you have the vulnerability posts, so I just go like. But it's ...
Kendra Perry: Disclaimer. Vulnerable share.
Christine: Yeah, [inaudible 00:15:47] like ... Eye roll.
Jamie Jensen: Why do you need to ... It's not. I want to read it less now actually.
Christine: That's as far as my imagination goes to how I would use this. So please [inaudible 00:16:00] this kind of space. Would you kind of chop it up? Or how do you do it? I mean Kendra is pretty good at this stuff too, in a way-
Kendra Perry: [inaudible 00:16:08].
Christine: ... and I know that you're stalking people who are very good at this, Kendra, too know. So I'm not very ... In that aspect, I don't know what I have, some story trauma or something, I just cannot see it. It's one of these things where my brain is just like trees. I don't see anything, you know? So how would you do that? How would you use it?
Jamie Jensen: It may be some story trauma. We can talk about that.
Kendra Perry: I love it. I love it.
Jamie Jensen: These things are real. So with social media it's a little bit different in how you decide to use your story because I think that you can actually tell the same story in like a hundred different ways and keep reinforcing it. One of the things that I tell people to do, and I talk about this in Story School is like, every story has little stories in it.
Jamie Jensen: So you can choose like ... You can choose a snippet, you can also take a snapshot and expand upon it. Like, let's say part of your story is like the moment, so the part of every story is like, "The moment I decided to shit needed to change." Right? So like you can say that in like two sentences when you're telling it any other place. But when you're telling it on social media, you can literally just take that moment and zoom, zoom in, right?
Jamie Jensen: So you're like, "I remember the moment that I decided shit needed to change. I was walking here. I was at a café. I went to a cafe with my friend. I was sitting. I remember the cafe looked like this. I remember ... " You know, it's like you get really into details and you expand upon a moment and you ... It really is this game of like time expanding and contracting depending on where in the chronological timeline of your story you're speaking to. So that's number one.
Jamie Jensen: Number two is with social media, it doesn't ... Like every ... You're going to have more than one story in your business. I think we get really obsessed with like, "This is my brand story." And the truth is that like-
Kendra Perry: I know.
Jamie Jensen: ... you need more than one, and you're not just going to have one and use one. You're going to have many. They're all going to relate to the topics in your business that you speak to that are important to you. So you know, let's say like self-care is a pillar of what you care about and what your brand values are. So you're going to have a lot of stories that relate to self-care. The core brand story work is there to really speak to what's the main thing that people need to know to understand what you do, why you're the best at what you do and why they should know, like, and trust you. Like that's your core. Who are you for them? That establishes that.
Jamie Jensen: Beyond that, like you can create a story bank. Part of the process of being a content creator is mining for stories in everyday life. So it's a little bit of both in that, you can use snippets of your brand story and expand upon them. You can take from other things that are happening in your life that relate back to the brand values that you stand for. That's usually what I would recommend.
Jamie Jensen: I think for some people it can be really intuitive and they can just create on the fly. For others, they need a bank. They need to work with someone to extract stories out of them and like give them a spreadsheet of like, "Listen, here's 20 stories that you can tell and you can repurpose them in different ways and you can tell them ... " You know, and quite honestly, if you had a bank of 20 stories on social media, people probably would stop noticing that you were telling the same story.
Christine: Oh yeah. [inaudible 00:19:18].
Jamie Jensen: Like they wouldn't notice by the time you got to 20 again, like number one happened again and they're ... They would just be like, "Wow, oh my gosh", because you're catching a new follower. You know, it's not.
Kendra Perry: Too.
Jamie Jensen: Yeah. Does that help? Does that make sense?
Christine: My eyes are like, you know, the heart or the star Emoji? It's like right here on a [inaudible 00:19:37] bank. I'm just like, cling. [inaudible 00:19:39].
Kendra Perry: Well, I love it, and it seems like what you're saying is like, it doesn't need to be this like crazy story. Like you could take small little things that happened in your life and turn them into something interesting that has maybe a lesson or, yeah, it relates back to the overall message that you're trying to tell. Right?
Christine: I just have to laugh because Kendra posted her cooler with all her food that she talked to.
Kendra Perry: [inaudible 00:20:01]. You know? [inaudible 00:20:01].
Christine: I was just like, "Oh, this stuff is delicious." And she's really good at what she does. She knows her shit, but it was just too hilarious seeing that cooler with all of the food.
Kendra Perry: Well, you know, this-
Christine: [crosstalk 00:20:16] it was like [crosstalk 00:20:17].
Kendra Perry: ... spa that I go to, they have a really expensive shitty restaurant. So I packed everything I needed in my cooler for like two days. But it's funny, everyone was like, "Oh my God, you're so healthy." I'm like, "Do you know that underneath the greens and the [inaudible 00:20:29] was four chocolate bars and like all this fucking shit crap food?" And everyone's like, "Oh my God, you're so healthy." I'm like, "Nah, I just packed a certain way."
Christine: It was really good [inaudible 00:20:41]. It was amazing [crosstalk 00:20:44].
Jamie Jensen: Strategic packing.
Christine: Totally. Very.
Kendra Perry: I'm like, "I'm so healthy", and then behind the scenes I'm stuffing like five chocolate bars in my face.
Christine: Yeah, I'm really getting into it. Like I try ... We went to a workshop at Social Media Marketing Worlds for Instagram Stories and both Kendra and I are totally flashing on it and I try to be more strategic about it now. So I literally have some days where I'll just prerecord. So I record moments and then I upload them all together in the evening. So really trying to have just a life into me. I don't quite manage to always tie it into my topic, I have to say maybe because my life doesn't quite revolve around it. Or maybe today, because today I literally didn't get out of bed cause I was just lazy, but that's not quite the same thing.
Christine: But I do find that these platforms are all pushing these dory kind of structures, you know, not to just do a one-off picture or just to do a one-off kind of video, but really to try and tie it in so that people can get to know you and that it's literally like a, yeah, like a script in a way. So what have you ... So particular to Instagram stories, have you had a client who for example said, "Look, I want to focus on that"? What have you found maybe that is great at working at that concept to also convert clients? Because in the end, it's all fun and games, but we really want to make money, right? So what are things where you said, "This is the golden ..." Not the golden ticket. We know that doesn't really exist but as close to.
Jamie Jensen: Really ... I mean social media is about developing relationships. So it's hard for me to say use conversion strategies on Instagram stories because I don't think it's about that. As far as far as storytelling techniques are concerned, it is pulling someone through a beginning, middle, and an end. So it's like, "Oh, I started cooking this, and here's all the different steps in the process." I think that process-oriented stories are probably the best thing to do on Instagram.
Kendra Perry: Yeah [inaudible 00:22:41].
Jamie Jensen: Taking people behind the scenes, taking them into the how, sharing what you're working on and like teasing-
Christine: [inaudible 00:22:47].
Jamie Jensen: ... your audience with what you're working on. Like, honestly, I think that it ... I think that the best use of Instagram Stories is always process-oriented behind the scenes.
Christine: Yeah. That's very cool.
Jamie Jensen: Taking them like behind the curtain. You know, it's like the Wizard of Oz.
Kendra Perry: Behind the curtain.
Christine: Yeah [inaudible 00:23:02].
Jamie Jensen: I can't speak to like, well what converts sales on Instagram. It's not ... I don't know. I don't look at social media that way. I think you're continuing to reiterate your message, the value you deliver, how you help, who you are. Then you lead them to the next step, which could be a landing page, could be a website, could be a webinar, could be a challenge, could be a Facebook group where you're nurturing an audience beyond what you're doing. I think that it can be challenging to build that same sense of like community and tribe on Instagram compared to the way you use other platforms and how they function for conversion, if that makes sense.
Christine: Yeah, totally.
Kendra Perry: It seems like social media is kind of like that dating part of a relationship where you're just kind of like, you go for coffee. You're like, "Hey, this is a little bit about me. Can I know a little bit about you?" But if you come in too heavy with the sale and you're like, "Hey, you want to like get married, have babies right now?" That person's going to be like-
Jamie Jensen: ... "Holy shit. That's fucking crazy. Get me out of here", right? Like I talk about relationship development like a lot with different platforms and like what stage they are. You know, like when someone opts in they're like, "Oh yeah, yeah. Take my number." You know?
Jamie Jensen: And someone who's following you on social media, like it is they're like, "We're checking you out. We're maybe flirting, but like I don't have your number yet. Like we're not there yet", right?
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I think that's important because I know I made this mistake when I was new to having a business. It's just like ... You're just like, "Oh sweet. I'll just get a Facebook page and I'll just tell people about my program and people will buy." And then you're pushing it out there and you're getting crickets and nothing's happening. You're like, "I don't understand why people don't want this from me."
Christine: I used the exact template that made Russell Brunson a gazillion billion dollars. Why isn't it working? You know?
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine: I get it.
Jamie Jensen: Totally.
Christine: It's just more difficult than that sometimes.
Jamie Jensen: It's also kind of-
Kendra Perry: So Jamie [crosstalk 00:25:10]-
Jamie Jensen: That's also the same thing as like getting into a really sexy dress, going to a party and walking around the whole time, talking about yourself. Like that's what then it's like, "Who wants to date that?" It's just like you know, it's like, "I'm really hot. I'm just going to walk around and talk about myself the whole time" and like not ask questions and not listen and not speak to them and not engage and like not care about anybody else. Like that's [crosstalk 00:25:34] person.
Kendra Perry: [crosstalk 00:25:34] that's literally what-
Jamie Jensen: That's what people do when they build their website and they're like, "It's all about me." [inaudible 00:25:41] but like no one cares.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, no one cares about you.
Jamie Jensen: [inaudible 00:25:44] care about themselves.
Jamie Jensen: Yeah.
Christine: [inaudible 00:25:47].
Kendra Perry: So I was ... Right before we hopped on the call I went and got your email opt-in and I got all your stuff and in the, your little like mini course that I think just purchased because I got sucked in, but I'm really excited to do it. But you were talking about in the first email that I got, you talked about like a story format where you said, "The desire, the challenge, the twist, the shift and the takeaway." Can you break that down a little bit? Is that kind of how you coach people how to kind of start building their story?
Jamie Jensen: So the tripwire that you bought is like, I have a five-step story formula, which is exactly that. It's ... How do I say this? It's kind of like one format that isn't as detailed as other formats I teach. So yes, I can.
Jamie Jensen: Usually, what I have people do is I have them work backwards through it. So we start with like the takeaway, which is like, what's the message you really want to deliver? What are you trying to say? Sometimes you don't know until you've like done the other five steps and then you come back around and you're like, "Oh wait, what am I really trying to say here? What am I trying to convey?" So knowing what you stand for, what's the result that you want to actually show your audience as possible, and the story that you share no matter what, should be evidence for that takeaway.
Jamie Jensen: So I always talk about romantic comedies because I've written quite a few and that's ... I write R-rated comedies, but I also write relationship-driven stories so they'd follow a romantic comedy structure.
Kendra Perry: Very cool.
Jamie Jensen: The underlying message of all romantic comedies is love conquers all. Like that's really [inaudible 00:27:21] they all end, love conquers everything.
Christine: Okay. I'm out a divorce. I'm fine. Oh no. Where's my beer?
Jamie Jensen: But if the movie didn't end with them living happily ever after and then it's like, "We don't see anything that happens after that because we're stop ... It's kind of like what you're saying with health coaches who haven't [inaudible 00:27:45] at the end and they're like, "I don't want to share my story because ... " Because it keeps going, but we get to choose what snapshot we share of our timelines.
Jamie Jensen: If the romantic comedy movie didn't end in that space, then the message would change. So you get to decide what your message is based on what you share in your story and like where you start, where you end. So know your takeaway.
Jamie Jensen: You know, when I teach this on stage, I call it ... I had a professor in college who called like, he would say he had a chicken McNugget for us. That was like his way of saying it's a little nugget of information. So he would call it chicken McNugget. It was just hilarious. So I'm like, "What's your chicken McNugget? What do you want people to walk away with? What do you want them to feel and know and do and feel confident in?" So always start with the takeaway.
Jamie Jensen: The desire is usually going to be, you know, what is it that ... If you're telling your personal story, what is it that you wanted that set you off on the journey in the first place? What created that desire? What was the goal? What did you want? The challenges like, what was hard about that? What was the problem you encountered trying to face the goal? The twist is like, what did you have to change?
Jamie Jensen: So, for example, let's say your goal ... I'm just going to use like a really ... This is just going to be really bad example, but the basic, most basic example. Let's say that the goal was like, I want to lose 10 pounds. Okay? So you're like, "I'm gonna lose 10 pounds. I'm going to do it by like not eating sugar and working out every day", which actually sounds really healthy and probably I should use a better example. But let's say that like it's not working for you or you crave chocolate every day and you're like, "I just need to eat chocolate everyday. Like I can't do this no sugar thing. It doesn't work for me." So you decided like, "This isn't going to work. I need a different approach." So that's the twist.
Kendra Perry: Right [inaudible 00:29:40].
Jamie Jensen: Then the shift is you take a new approach that helps you actually get where you want to go. So the shift is like, "Oh, here's my new approach." You know, when we're talking about storytelling, it's always about a character achieving a goal in spite of obstacles. Based on what the obstacles are and what the obstacles ... what you encounter, what happens is either the goal changes or you find a way of overcoming the obstacle that becomes part of the takeaway message. So you're building evidence for what you want the customer to know.
Jamie Jensen: So let's say you want the customer to know you can have chocolate every day and lose weight, and like, here's my system for doing that, right? So then that's the story you tell them and in the shift you're like, "Instead of not eating sugar, what I did was I let myself have one piece of chocolate every day and that actually helped me curb my cravings, and like balanced whatever and I wasn't like I had to ... I experienced pleasure in how I was eating and that helped me create what I wanted to create." So that's kind of the very fast version of teaching those steps.
Christine: I like it. So how do you work with your clients. So, I mean it's such a personal kind of topic, but from what I soused out here, there's like all kinds of different strategies that you use. You know, let's talk business here. Like the way that you structured your business, so walk us a little bit through that. If we have some people like me right now who's like on my notepad is like hire her, [inaudible 00:31:07]. How did you build your business and how is it structured now?
Jamie Jensen: Yeah, so is the question like what do I offer and what are my like what's my business model?
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.
Jamie Jensen: Yeah, so great question. I had a copywriting agency for about four years that I shut down a year and a half or two years ago now. So that was my first business model. Now my model is different. I do a lot more teaching, mentorship, consulting, optimization and like custom work. So I don't really do done-for-you writing very often. I will do co-writing with people sometimes like actually help them, they write, I write, we switched back and forth. I support them in extracting what needs to be extracted and structuring it the way it needs to be structured. So it's a little similar to like developmental editing work but it involves more like story extraction.
Jamie Jensen: I have a process for getting people to like share stuff and I go really deep with my clients. You know I'm a [inaudible 00:32:05] person so even though what we pull out is going to be like really, really legit and, and it's going to have emotional resonance, but we can also build a sense of humor into it, which is really what I do with people.
Jamie Jensen: So to-
Kendra Perry: [crosstalk 00:32:20]. I actually noticed that about your website. I was like, "Man, her copy is really good", but I laughed the whole time when I read your About page. I was like, "This is great", because I love that. I love humor. Like you know, it's like, "Well, is she serious?" We've got to like laugh and say stupid shit sometimes.
Jamie Jensen: That's what I did. Like the first website that I had, everything was super clean and like polite. The one that I have now, it's just like full of swear words and just calling it the way that it is. Ultimately people buy us. So if they don't like the way that we talk, they will never trust us and they will never [inaudible 00:32:52].
Kendra Perry: You need to bring all of you.
Kendra Perry: Okay. That sounds-
Jamie Jensen: So the business model is, I have two courses I sell. One is on writing your website copy to convert more clients and one is more, it's Story School, which is like, "Here's really like all you need to know about story structure." So I've eliminated all of the BS, like all the stuff you don't need to know, here, you don't need to know it, but like, here's actually how to tell a story to engineer it emotionally. So that's what Story School is.
Jamie Jensen: Then what I've created now that I'm actually putting together for the summer is, more of like a group mentorship program around like how to take your story and adjust it to different platforms. So it's kind of a blend of ... It's going to be like a small program, but it will be a group, but it'll be like the best way to get mentorship from me because it's not as expensive as one-on-one would be for example.
Kendra Perry: Right, yeah.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine: Which is what Kendra does mainly too.
Jamie Jensen: [inaudible 00:33:55].
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Like group programs. One-on-one I find so exhausting sometimes, but group os fun.
Jamie Jensen: Yeah, yeah. I love one-on-one, but it's ... Because I only have until [inaudible 00:34:05] group courses but it's because charge accordingly so it's fine.
Kendra Perry: Totally. Cool. It sounds like when you work with a client you kind of pull the stories out of them. I'm picturing this therapy session where I cry a lot.
Jamie Jensen: Totally. That is totally what happens.
Kendra Perry: I feel [crosstalk 00:34:19] as in, "This doesn't belong to my story. Tell me more. Boo hoo" you know? Like, yeah.
Jamie Jensen: It's very healing. Like, here's the thing. Stories heal people. Like this is, I mean, this is honestly why I do the work I do. Like, I believe that story is healing. I believe that watching someone else's story can help you have that emotional catharsis where you're like, "Oh my God. They're me." Then you actually get the benefit of that healing.
Jamie Jensen: I have people who listen to my podcast, there are episodes where I just share stuff and they message me and they're like, "Oh my God. I so resonate with this. I went through that too. I was crying the whole time listening to your episode." We don't realize the power of sharing our story that like we're not just getting clients, we're actually healing other people by doing it. So it takes a lot of balls to really go there and it's worth it on many different levels.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, yeah. I totally agree about ... A year ago I made a shift to just trying to be more raw and honest with my past and things I've done and I've shared all kinds ... If you go through my Instagram, I mean you can learn some pretty dark things about me and embarrassing and like times where I like did too many drugs-
Christine: She [inaudible 00:35:32].
Kendra Perry: ... and like all kinds of stuff.
Christine: She [inaudible 00:35:33].
Kendra Perry: But it helps. Right? I get that too. People contact me and being like, "Oh my God, I can't believe you shared that. That was so raw and it shocked me, but it's so ... Like, I did that too", you know, sort of thing. I love that stories heal people. I think that's amazing.
Christine: Totally. All right, so I think that's pretty much all we have time for at the moment. But how can people get in touch with you and hire you ideally? I do think [inaudible 00:36:02] We tend to spend so much money, especially in the beginning of our business on email and [inaudible 00:36:08] courses and on website design and all kinds of crap. It's like, I think story is like one of the key pieces. It tends to be overlooked or not taken seriously when I think, I really believe that is one of the main converters in the end, longterm game. So how do people get in touch with you? How do they find you?
Jamie Jensen: They can go to the jamiejensen.com which is where Kendra grabbed the messaging worksheet and the mini story course, which we just chatted about. So there is a messaging worksheet on that page. If you're having trouble writing your About page and you just run a workshop, like a little workbook for that, I have a free one at howtowriteanaboutpage.com that they can go grab that literally walks them through a process of like, I just ask them questions and they just answer them. By answering questions, they're actually writing the first draft for their About page. So it's so easy. It'll pull a story out of them for their About page. So I would say those are probably the best two places to go just get some support right now in like figuring out your messaging and kind of starting this process for sure.
Kendra Perry: Perfect.
Kendra Perry: Well I'll try to be less of a creeper, Jamie and I'll start to engage with you more because I've been like creeping behind your ship for a while.
Christine: See well it worked. You've bought, so it worked.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I just came out of the woodwork. I'm like, "Be on my podcast. Oh my God", but really I've been creeping for a while so.
Jamie Jensen: This has been such a pleasure. Thank you ladies so much.
Kendra Perry: Thanks for being here.
Christine: Thanks so much.
Kendra Perry: Thanks so much guys. Yeah, if you're listening to this episode, make sure to screenshot it, share it to your stories, take a 360 Health Biz podcast and we will share it to our stories and give you a shout out. If you love this episode, definitely leave us a five star review on iTunes or wherever. I think you can only leave one on iTunes. Can you leave one on Spotify? I don't even know.
Kendra Perry: I always say iTunes and Spotify, but maybe just iTunes and guys will be with you again in two weeks time with another fantastic episode. Bye.
Christine: [inaudible 00:38:01].